Catalans prepare vote for independence from Spain

[Shawn0000]

On 07/03/2017 at 11:12 AM, Tom Seller said:

Are you sure? Can you give me your source? Or I need to believe in your word?. I guess that you´re not an expert of spanish history, so you should have read that in some place. I´d like you to show me.

 

What I´ve showed you is not a poll. It´s the result of last elections in Catalonia, that independentist said it was a plebiscite. It was not, it was just elections to Catalan Parlament, but they joined forces to get the maximun number of votes and tell the Central Government: "You see? Most of Catalans want the independence". The problem? They failed. 

 

Independence is something serious. You can´t do it if you have not at least a 60% of population supporting it. They dont have the 50% and are still trying...

 

One last question. What country are you from?

 

It was a principality, under the crown of Aragon, so not exactly independent and pretty much to the same level that they are now, just quite autonomous.

[Galactus]

3 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

What´s the problem of telling me your country?. Maybe if I use some examples in your country you could have a different point of view. 

 

You make false statements, that´s a fact. I´m still waiting for you to show me your source for telling Catalonia was an independent state in the past. That´s a false statement and you are not able to prove it simply because it´s not true.

 

You´re very funny about your solution. So catalans living in Spain (Catalonia is Spain even if independentists don´t like the idea), who have grown in Spain, and who are a bigger amount than independentist must leave their own land because that people "feel they are not spanish". That´s ridiculous. 

 

As you always say, let´s see what happen. You say there will be a referendum, I say it won´t. You say that will be the end of Spain. I say that´s not true. The end of Spain and Europe would be if the rest of the countries were supporting that kind of movements, because they exist in Germany, Italy, England, etc. Look:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

 

Politicians are not so stupid. They know if they support a foreign secesionist movement, tomorrow others can do the same with their own secesionist movements. So, keep on dreaming about Catalonia independence.

 

 

if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent.

you can runaway from the inevitable. if it is as you say, then Catalans decide to stay with Spain but dont think so.

check your historical facts as well:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11179914/Why-does-Catalonia-want-independence-from-Spain.html

 

'Catalonia was an independent region of the Iberian Peninsula – modern day Spain and Portugal – with its own language, laws and customs.

In 1150, the marriage of Petronilia, Queen of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona formed a dynasty leaving their son to inherit all territories concerning the region of Aragon and Catalonia.

This lasted until the reign of King Philip V. The War of the Spanish Succession ended with the defeat of Valencia in 1707, of Catalonia in 1714, and finally with the last of the islands in 1715 – resulting in the birth of modern-day Spain.'

biggest concern of catalans is the situation of Barcelona football team i believe more than anything:)

[Tom Seller]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

For us observers of this discussion, please explain all those things. 

Independentists scottish groups support Catalonia independence because they have similar goals. I just guessed Galactus was from Scotland, because he´s reluctant to say what´s his country and support catalan independentism with no reason 

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

It was a principality, under the crown of Aragon, so not exactly independent and pretty much to the same level that they are now, just quite autonomous.

That´s much more accurate.

 

Catalonia was under the crown of Aragon, and when Aragon and Castilia joined forces, they were part of Spain. So they have never been independent. In fact, 10 years ago, when Spain was in a good economic situation, independentist movement was almost inexistent, another proof of this nonsense . It´s not a problem of identity. It´s not a problem of opression. It´s a problem of money and power. Bad reasons to support independence.

 

3 hours ago, Galactus said:

 

if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent.

you can runaway from the inevitable. if it is as you say, then Catalans decide to stay with Spain but dont think so.

check your historical facts as well:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11179914/Why-does-Catalonia-want-independence-from-Spain.html

 

'Catalonia was an independent region of the Iberian Peninsula – modern day Spain and Portugal – with its own language, laws and customs.

In 1150, the marriage of Petronilia, Queen of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona formed a dynasty leaving their son to inherit all territories concerning the region of Aragon and Catalonia.

This lasted until the reign of King Philip V. The War of the Spanish Succession ended with the defeat of Valencia in 1707, of Catalonia in 1714, and finally with the last of the islands in 1715 – resulting in the birth of modern-day Spain.'

biggest concern of catalans is the situation of Barcelona football team i believe more than anything:)

As you wrote "was an independent REGION of the iberian Peninsula". It never was an independent state. As I explained before, it was included in the crown of Aragon, but never was a country or a state. In fact, you can check the wikipedia page and you will see there´s no trace of any period when Catalonia have been independent

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia

 

"if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent." This apply for your country too?

[Galactus]

2 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

Independentists scottish groups support Catalonia independence because they have similar goals. I just guessed Galactus was from Scotland, because he´s reluctant to say what´s his country and support catalan independentism with no reason 

That´s much more accurate.

 

Catalonia was under the crown of Aragon, and when Aragon and Castilia joined forces, they were part of Spain. So they have never been independent. In fact, 10 years ago, when Spain was in a good economic situation, independentist movement was almost inexistent, another proof of this nonsense . It´s not a problem of identity. It´s not a problem of opression. It´s a problem of money and power. Bad reasons to support independence.

 

As you wrote "was an independent REGION of the iberian Peninsula". It never was an independent state. As I explained before, it was included in the crown of Aragon, but never was a country or a state. In fact, you can check the wikipedia page and you will see there´s no trace of any period when Catalonia have been independent

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia

 

"if some group of people are asking for independence, let them be independent." This apply for your country too?

 

that applies to my country too. yes.

catalans are an ethnic group like many ethnic groups having their own states or fighting for independence around the world.

why scare for them to be independent? they are lot leaving Spain! catalans need spain, have centuries of cultural ties in between and such change i am sure will benefit both sides more.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Galactus

[Tom Seller]

Once more. Can you please tell me your country of origin? It would be interesting to see how you reply some questions.

 

About your statement " catalans are an ethnic group " ; you are proving you know NOTHING about this conflict and less about catalans. 

 

Catalans are not an ethnic group. 

They are not oppressed

They can use their own language with total freedom

They never were independent state, so they were not colonized

 

 

Please, try to be informed if you support a cause, because if not, it seems you´re talking nonsense.

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, Tom Seller said:

Once more. Can you please tell me your country of origin? It would be interesting to see how you reply some questions.

 

About your statement " catalans are an ethnic group " ; you are proving you know NOTHING about this conflict and less about catalans. 

 

Catalans are not an ethnic group. 

They are not oppressed

They can use their own language with total freedom

They never were independent state, so they were not colonized

 

 

Please, try to be informed if you support a cause, because if not, it seems you´re talking nonsense.

 

You might be confusing what "ethnic group" actually means, which is a people who share a common cultural background OR decent.  Catalans very much are an ethnic group in that they have a cultural background which is distinct from the other Romanse ethnic groups in the area; Asturians, Galicians, Basques, Navarese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese and the French, although they may not classify as a different ethnic group to the Occitans, that would be debatable.

[Tom Seller]

Just now, Shawn0000 said:

 

You might be confusing what "ethnic group" actually means, which is a people who share a common cultural background OR decent.  Catalans very much are an ethnic group in that they have a cultural background which is distinct from the other Romanse ethnic groups in the area; Asturians, Galicians, Basques, Navarese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese and the French, although they may not classify as a different ethnic group to the Occitans, that would be debatable.

If that is the sense of ethnic group, it was a misunderstanding. I thought he was talking about a different race.

 

You are right, but having a different background is not reason enough for independence. There are a lot of examples of different ethnic groups in many countries and that not means anything. If any ethnic group were a country the world would have thousand of them.

[Shawn0000]

32 minutes ago, Tom Seller said:

If that is the sense of ethnic group, it was a misunderstanding. I thought he was talking about a different race.

 

You are right, but having a different background is not reason enough for independence. There are a lot of examples of different ethnic groups in many countries and that not means anything. If any ethnic group were a country the world would have thousand of them.

 

It can also be used like race.

 

And I agree, we don't want the world splitting into thousands of countries but I also think people should be entitled to autonomy if that is what they wish for, but then they already have such a great deal of autonomy in Catalan that I think it has become about something else for them, perhaps just principle for some but perhaps also money as they would probably be better off on their own, and I cannot support that at all, if we were to allow every affluent area to become independent we would have some very sorry places left behind and more mass migrations, over populated areas with housing crisis' and underpopulated areas with little chance to raise revenue for essential services, and all the other problems we have already seen happen as inequality has grown accross Europe.

[Galactus]

15 hours ago, Tom Seller said:

Once more. Can you please tell me your country of origin? It would be interesting to see how you reply some questions.

 

About your statement " catalans are an ethnic group " ; you are proving you know NOTHING about this conflict and less about catalans. 

 

Catalans are not an ethnic group. 

They are not oppressed

They can use their own language with total freedom

They never were independent state, so they were not colonized

 

 

Please, try to be informed if you support a cause, because if not, it seems you´re talking nonsense.

what ca i tell you?

you dont even know what ethnic group means.

please try to be informed and learn some simple terms before jumping into a discussion.

Catalans are an ethnic group and if they want independence or autonomy, they should get it.

would they need to care about mass migration or economic problems of other parts of Spain? they dont have to do that. it is not their problem. they just want to decide their own fate.

if Spanish government could not provide equality all over Spanish regions so far, that it is the problem of government not catalans.

 

[Tom Seller]

On 9/3/2017 at 0:17 PM, Galactus said:

what ca i tell you?

you dont even know what ethnic group means.

please try to be informed and learn some simple terms before jumping into a discussion.

Catalans are an ethnic group and if they want independence or autonomy, they should get it.

would they need to care about mass migration or economic problems of other parts of Spain? they dont have to do that. it is not their problem. they just want to decide their own fate.

if Spanish government could not provide equality all over Spanish regions so far, that it is the problem of government not catalans.

 

English is not my mother tongue, so it´s not strange if I don´t know the meaning of some terms.  I apologized for the misunderstanding.

 

You are, once more, using the same tricks than independentists. "Catalans" don´t want independence. A part of catalans want independence, a part that is not the biggest part. Saying "catalans want the independence" you are ignoring more than 2 million people voting to political groups against the independence. So, please, don´t talk in name of catalans because the catalans who want to be spanish are not less catalans than independentists or second class citizens. They have exactly the same rights.

 

There´s no constitution in the world that approve secesion of a part of territory. So what  Spain is doing is applying the law.

Catalans have autonomy. One of the biggest autonomies in Europe. This is not a problem of freedom, as i said. it´s a problem of money and power

 

15 years ago Spanish economy was on the top. The independentism was a minoritary movement and nobody was complaining about Spain. The problem was after the crisis, when the politicians started to tell the population that Spain was taking advantage of Catalonia because just a part of their taxes go back to Catalonia. You know what? same happens in Madrid. It´s called "solidarity". More developed regions have to help the less developed ones in the same country, I´m sure this happen in every european country.

 

But nationalist saw the oportunity of their life when realized that this kind of complains were having a good response between population, because they were frustrated for the economical crisis, and you know the people always need a guilty. You can´t expect normal people was able to understand the complexity of factors involved in a crisis, so they believe a plain and simple explanation.

Add the brainwashing in education and you can find the reasons of this conflict.

 

Anyway, it´s clear you are not supporting this cause for logical reasons. It´s clear you don´t want to tell your country because you know I will ask about places in it and if you would like they were independent. And it´s clear that, what you want for Catalonia, is not the same you would like for your country.

 

Do you know how I know all of that? Because in Spain there´s a lot of debate about this. Independentist claim Catalans have ·"the right to decide" and Spain is not respecting that right. And I always reply the same:

 

Let´s imagine we accept the "right to decide" in the terms they propose. In an hipotetical Catalan state, if some of the provinces would ask for a referendum to get back to Spain, would they accept? 

 

There´s always same answer:

 

Silence...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Galactus]

1 hour ago, Tom Seller said:

English is not my mother tongue, so it´s not strange if I don´t know the meaning of some terms.  I apologized for the misunderstanding.

 

You are, once more, using the same tricks than independentists. "Catalans" don´t want independence. A part of catalans want independence, a part that is not the biggest part. Saying "catalans want the independence" you are ignoring more than 2 million people voting to political groups against the independence. So, please, don´t talk in name of catalans because the catalans who want to be spanish are not less catalans than independentists or second class citizens. They have exactly the same rights.

 

There´s no constitution in the world that approve secesion of a part of territory. So what  Spain is doing is applying the law.

Catalans have autonomy. One of the biggest autonomies in Europe. This is not a problem of freedom, as i said. it´s a problem of money and power

 

15 years ago Spanish economy was on the top. The independentism was a minoritary movement and nobody was complaining about Spain. The problem was after the crisis, when the politicians started to tell the population that Spain was taking advantage of Catalonia because just a part of their taxes go back to Catalonia. You know what? same happens in Madrid. It´s called "solidarity". More developed regions have to help the less developed ones in the same country, I´m sure this happen in every european country.

 

But nationalist saw the oportunity of their life when realized that this kind of complains were having a good response between population, because they were frustrated for the economical crisis, and you know the people always need a guilty. You can´t expect normal people was able to understand the complexity of factors involved in a crisis, so they believe a plain and simple explanation.

Add the brainwashing in education and you can find the reasons of this conflict.

 

Anyway, it´s clear you are not supporting this cause for logical reasons. It´s clear you don´t want to tell your country because you know I will ask about places in it and if you would like they were independent. And it´s clear that, what you want for Catalonia, is not the same you would like for your country.

 

Do you know how I know all of that? Because in Spain there´s a lot of debate about this. Independentist claim Catalans have ·"the right to decide" and Spain is not respecting that right. And I always reply the same:

 

Let´s imagine we accept the "right to decide" in the terms they propose. In an hipotetical Catalan state, if some of the provinces would ask for a referendum to get back to Spain, would they accept? 

 

There´s always same answer:

 

Silence...

 

 

 

 

 

 

i respect your words too and no problems for your english. it is not my first language as well. i can understand you and that is what matters.

Maybe most catalans do not want separation. but polls does not say that.

but what we can do is respecting their ideas ad letting them decide their fate and respect the outcome. if what you say is true and if most catalans do not want such separation so why you need to scare from a referandum? let them vote in and discussions are over.

 

[Tom Seller]

6 hours ago, Galactus said:

i respect your words too and no problems for your english. it is not my first language as well. i can understand you and that is what matters.

Maybe most catalans do not want separation. but polls does not say that.

but what we can do is respecting their ideas ad letting them decide their fate and respect the outcome. if what you say is true and if most catalans do not want such separation so why you need to scare from a referandum? let them vote in and discussions are over.

 

It´s simple. That kind of referendum is not legal.

 

Every country have a Constitution, that is the mother of all laws. You can´t do a referendum opposite to the constitution only because a part of population want it.

 

Example:

 

If 1 million of French people want a referendum to execute musulmans because the terrorist attacks of Paris you can´t accept that referendum and their results because death penalty is not admited in french constitution.

 

If 2 million germans agree to make a referendum for not paying taxes you can´t accept that referendum and its results because german constitution say all germans must pay taxes.

 

If 3 millons of catalans say they want a referendum to be independent you can´t accept the referendum and their results because spanish constitution say the soberany of Spain and its territory belongs to ALL THE SPANISH PEOPLE.

 

As you can see, it´s not a numbers problem. It´s about the law.  If you ignore the law, what kind of country can you create? What´s your moral authority to tell your citizens to pay taxes and follow the rules if you as a politician didn´t respect them?