New Israeli law bars entry to foreigners supporting Israel boycott

[dexterm]

48 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

The usual all or nothing tirade.

 

It might not be a smart law, and not a very democratic one, but to say that it makes or breaks Israel's entire claim to democracy is an exaggeration at best. This fits well with the faux position which does not recognize democracy as a matter of degree. The underlying expectation is that Israel will manifest the Western ideal of democracy - obviously not a very realistic goal, or even an honest one. I do not recall similar fiery objection to rules limiting foreigners political activities in other countries, but eh...

 

And no, not "anyone who thinks the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is illegal, and thus goods that are produced there illegal too, will be banned from Israel" - just those actively involved in efforts relating to boycotts. This goes with the usual attempts to co-opt countries and governments, implying that they are on board with your agenda.

 

Like a previous poster, you draw a non existent parallel - if Israelis were calling for boycotts on other countries, than you'd have a point.

 

There is nothing in this law which prevents people holding all pro-Palestinian views from entering the country. That's another lame attempt at co-opting, through implying that support for the Palestinians and support for boycotts on Israel are synonymous.

 

I don't think that the law got anything to do with real effects of the BDS nonsense, but more to do with Israel's domestic politics and populist right-wing legislation trends.

>>It might not be a smart law, and not a very democratic one, but to say that it makes or breaks Israel's entire claim to democracy is an exaggeration at best.
...you misrepresent me as usual. Which of course is easy for you to do when you don't even do me the courtesy of quoting my words. I never said that. Looks like you are the one using the all or nothing fallacy.

 

This law banning freedom of speech is one of dozens of ways in which Israel masquerades as a democracy when it is far from it. Even disregarding 50 years of brutal illegal occupation of Palestinians in the WEst Bank and Gaza, Israel has many other undemocratic laws that discriminate against its own Palestinian citizens.

 

www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

 

>>And no, not "anyone who thinks the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is illegal, and thus goods that are produced there illegal too, will be banned from Israel" - just those actively involved in efforts relating to boycotts.
..baloney. If I turned up at Ben Gurion airport and they asked me (and they do...I've been there) if I disagreed with the occupation I would not have to lie (as I did) to get in (see below)?

 

Israel besides openly banning NGOs as I stated above with Human Rights Watch, also uses its NGO Transparency Laws to deliberately target pro Palestinian groups
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/EU-slams-law-increasing-transparency-for-its-donations-to-Israeli-NGOs-460179

 

Israel slammed over its 'war on NGOs'
Instances of permit confiscation and lengthy interrogation by Israeli security are on the rise, says UN official.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2016/11/israel-slammed-war-ngos-161101115337497.html

 

Some Amercan Jews disagree with you.

'Sokatch [CEO of the New Israel wonders how Israel would react if an airplane full of American Jews, "Zionists who love Israel" but say they support the right of Israelis to oppose the settlements or boycott settlement goods, lands at Israel's Ben Gurion Airport.

By denying entry, Sokatch says, the lawmakers behind the bill "are taking the same position of the BDS movement that they profess to oppose - banning people’s entry to Israel just because they don’t like their opinion."

 

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.764821

 

Very interesting contribution to the debate in Haaretz from several American Jews, suggesting it's a slippery slope from this law to banning people who are too left wing in their views or who disagree with the government. Maybe if Israel annexes the West Bank and you start using the A-word, you too may be subject to banning.

If If and when Israel annexes the West Bank/Gaza Strip and refuse full rights to the Palestinians, you'd have a point.
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/972300-new-israeli-law-bars-entry-to-foreigners-supporting-israel-boycott/?do=findand when Israel annexes the West Bank/Gaza Strip

Edited March 7, 2017 by dexterm
repetition

[Dipterocarp]

Israel has every right to justly ban entry to those who do not love the Israeli people and support Israel's  values.

BDS is a racist policy based on rank anti-semitism and has no comparison to any other supposed "political" protest in the modern world.

[Jai Dee]

A couple of troll and off-topic posts have been removed from this thread.

[Thorgal]

Israel has every right to justly ban entry to those who do not love the Israeli people and support Israel's  values.
BDS is a racist policy based on rank anti-semitism and has no comparison to any other supposed "political" protest in the modern world.

BDS is not pointed to the Israeli 'people' nor its 'values'.

BDS was created to force the Israel government to peace negotiations through economic sanctions. BDS is not directed to any individual or group, but rather against the colonial policies exercised by the Israeli government since the creation of its state in Palestine.

To suggest that it's an anti-semitic movement is rather wrong and false.

To know that the first organised mass BDS-movement in history was pronounced in 1933 in Amsterdam by world Jewry associations to start economic sanctions in Europe against Germany.
Later on those same sanctions were also promoted in the US against Germany.





Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, Dipterocarp said:

Israel has every right to justly ban entry to those who do not love the Israeli people and support Israel's  values.

BDS is a racist policy based on rank anti-semitism and has no comparison to any other supposed "political" protest in the modern world.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

If you mean Israel's values as not working to destroy the state of Israel, I would agree, but beyond that there is a great diversity of values among Israeli people. 

I do agree obviously that the BDS movement is deeply infected with Jew haters, it's roots and leadership are about working for Israel to not exist at all with any borders, but not all supporters of BDS are that way, and of course there are many Jewish BDS supporters and only some of them are self hating Jews.

I think protest against specific Israeli policies is totally legitimate the same as similar protest against policies of other nation states.

I don't think BDS is the answer, I don't think the Israeli situation is the same as South Africa, and of course Israel as a sovereign state has the right to make any immigration policies that it wishes.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[DeaconJohn]

Another PR disaster in the making.

Whether or not the law is ever enacted, it is very bad publicity to even propose and promote it.

More than anything else it shows how seriously the radical Zionists are taking the worldwide boycott and divestment movement.

 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, DeaconJohn said:

Another PR disaster in the making.

Whether or not the law is ever enacted, it is very bad publicity to even propose and promote it.

More than anything else it shows how seriously the radical Zionists are taking the worldwide boycott and divestment movement.

 

I suppose you're correct in that it is bad PR.

But Israel tends to value protecting the existence of it's nation over good PR.

Yes, BDS is a threat and Israel has every right to work against it. 

I don't think it is only "radical" Zionists that see it as threat. I'm sure many liberal Zionists also see it as a threat. The term Zionist is rather loaded anyway. In modern reality, Zionism has transformed to meaning supporting the right of the nation state of Israel to EXIST with a majority Jewish demographic character. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[DeaconJohn]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I suppose you're correct in that it is bad PR.

But Israel tends to value protecting the existence of it's nation over good PR.

Yes, BDS is a threat and Israel has every right to work against it. 

The most effective way that Israel could work against BDS would be to return to their internationally recognized 1967 borders and stop occupying territory that doesn't belong to them.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, DeaconJohn said:

The most effective way that Israel could work against BDS would be to return to their internationally recognized 1967 borders and stop occupying territory that doesn't belong to them.

Well, we both support the two state solution it seems, but that's not good enough. Israel needs security control in the region and Israel needs a Palestinian state that is no longer dedicated to the destruction of Israel. We're not there yet. 

You're dreaming if you think BDS or any other cockamamie Israel demonization movement is going to FORCE Israel to commit national suicide. Nice try -- no dice. 

[DeaconJohn]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well, we both support the two state solution it seems, but that's not good enough. Israel needs security control in the region and Israel needs a Palestinian state that is no longer dedicated to the destruction of Israel. We're not there yet. 

You're dreaming if you think BDS or any other cockamamie Israel demonization movement is going to FORCE Israel to commit national suicide. Nice try -- no dice. 

The fact that not one country in the world supports Israel's occupation of the West Bank makes you sound ridiculous.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, DeaconJohn said:

The fact that not one country in the world supports Israel's occupation of the West Bank makes you sound ridiculous.

I don't believe that the BDS agenda is only about the west bank. I think it's largely about working against the very existence of Israel with any borders. I realize many pro BDS people try to mask that reality but I doubt most people that support the continued existence of Israel are fooled. 

To add, personally I think Israel should back off on expanding west bank settlements now as a show of good faith but that aggressive withdrawal is a matter for potential future negotiations if there is ever a time when there is political leadership on BOTH SIDES to enter real negotiations towards a Palestinian state.

 

Israel will not and SHOULD not ever agree to a two state solution where they don't have strong assurances of their SECURITY concerns being addressed. We're not nearly there yet ... sorry to say. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[Kasset Tak]

Isreal is a UK/US construction basically stealing the land from the Palestinians. In 1922 there were 11% Jews in Palestine (in the 1878 census it was only 4-5%). Today Israel take up 75% of the area that was Palestine 1920 and with todays population of 6,5 million Jews against 6,3 million Muslims that's not even close to a fair split of the land!

 

And then people like Ezz continue to think that if Palestinians kill an Israeli soldier on occupied terretory then it's a terror attack but if Israel bomb a school or hospital in Palestine then its self defence. And as long as there are people that have such a crucked view around there is no chance in hell that it will ever be peace.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, Kasset Tak said:

Isreal is a UK/US construction basically stealing the land from the Palestinians. In 1922 there were 11% Jews in Palestine (in the 1878 census it was only 4-5%). Today Israel take up 75% of the area that was Palestine 1920 and with todays population of 6,5 million Jews against 6,3 million Muslims that's not even close to a fair split of the land!

 

And then people like Ezz continue to think that if Palestinians kill an Israeli soldier on occupied terretory then it's a terror attack but if Israel bomb a school or hospital in Palestine then its self defence. And as long as there are people that have such a crucked view around there is no chance in hell that it will ever be peace.

Funny, you fail to mention the Jewish Nakba from the Arab and Muslim world after Israel was established. Dude, Jews are INDIGENOUS to the middle east. Period, end of story. There was a very good reason for Israel to exist and there are very good reasons for Israel to continue to exist. All the Israel demonization propoganda in the world won't change that reality. 

 

To add, and you really should know better, "Palestine" has never existed in history as a nation state. The greater region before 1948 was a BRITISH mandate, not a separate Arab nation. Palestinian Arab identity is a MODERN creation. 

 

Someday, maybe there will be a Palestinian state.

I can't wait to hear what "progressives" have to say about their social policies if that happens. Towards LGBTQ civil rights. Towards Jews. Etc. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[retarius]

Guess I'll be givong the place a miss on my next Mediterranean holiday. Bring on the boycott.

[Elfin]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Funny, you fail to mention the Jewish Nakba from the Arab and Muslim world after Israel was established. Dude, Jews are INDIGENOUS to the middle east. Period, end of story. There was a very good reason for Israel to exist and there are very good reasons for Israel to continue to exist. All the Israel demonization propoganda in the world won't change that reality. 

 

To add, and you really should know better, "Palestine" has never existed in history as a nation state. The greater region before 1948 was a BRITISH mandate, not a separate Arab nation. Palestinian Arab identity is a MODERN creation. 

 

Someday, maybe there will be a Palestinian state.

I can't wait to hear what "progressives" have to say about their social policies if that happens. Towards LGBTQ civil rights. Towards Jews. Etc. 

Jingthing, when you keep repeating that " Jews are INDIGENOUS to the middle east" (why do you also keep using capital letters in your posts?), are you talking about the Russian jews, European jews, American jews etc? Most of these blow-ins are part time Israelis anyway.

[midas]

11 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

So will all these people be wearing badges when they try to enter Israel saying "boycott Israeli goods"? Why would someone that feels so strongly about Israel that they would boycott their goods want to go there in the first place? Seems like time spent on a law that is totally meaningless and useless.

I will definitely not lose any sleep over this decision

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Elfin said:

Jingthing, when you keep repeating that " Jews are INDIGENOUS to the middle east" (why do you also keep using capital letters in your posts?), are you talking about the Russian jews, European jews, American jews etc? Most of these blow-ins are part time Israelis anyway.

It would be nice to see, that the moderate Jews around the world, start to condemn the actions of the radical jews who live in the Israel. The same way like it is often asked from moderate Muslims to condemn jihadists.

 

 

[Elfin]

Morch said " Seems like there's a redundant D in your last line."

Are you referring to big organizations such as the US Presbyterian church having its superannuation fund divest from companies such as Viola and G4 Securities to the point where both these companies are selling their businesses (divesting) in Israel to protect their global names?

BDS are also working very hard against Hewlett-Packard and Caterpillar as divestment targeting examples.

The D is far from being redundant Morch.

BDS

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

It would be nice to see, that the moderate Jews around the world, start to condemn the actions of the radical jews who live in the Israel. The same way like it is often asked from moderate Muslims to condemn jihadists.

 

 

You mean like J street? 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

You mean like J street? 

I don't understand / know the reference.

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I don't understand / know the reference.

You suggest, massively incorrectly, that there aren't many Jews supporting more moderate and/or liberal policies from Israel that are HIGHLY CRITICAL of right wing Israeli extremists. It's hard to imagine how misinformed a person would have to be to think that doesn't exist. 

 

There are a number of such HIGHLY VISIBLE organizations in Israel, the U.S., and elsewhere. 

J street in the U.S. is a big deal. 

http://jstreet.org/

 

No, it isn't as powerful as AIPAC but represents many more actual American Jews than they do. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

You suggest, massively incorrectly, that there aren't many Jews supporting more moderate and/or liberal policies from Israel. It's hard to imagine how misinformed a person would have to be to think that doesn't exist. 

 

I said that it would be nice to hear the moderate Jews condemning the radical ones, who are currently leading israel and causing suffering to fellow human beings.

 

Do you condemn Israel's current policies and do you condemn Netanyahu?

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I said that it would be nice to hear the moderate Jews condemning the radical ones, who are currently leading israel and causing suffering to fellow human beings.

 

Do you condemn Israel's current policies and do you condemn Netanyahu?

Oh, I get it now. You haven't even heard of J Street but instead want to play a personal baiting game. I reject your absurd suggestion that there aren't many visible Jewish voices of condemnation of right wing Israeli policies and politicians. I'm one person probably not as leftist as J street as I've grown the respect the tough real world situation Israelis actually live in ... and it's so easy to get on a moral high horse from more comfortable USA though with trump that's changing. Dude -- I personally have condemned some Israeli policies before, I will again, and I have some condemned Bibi's policies before, and will again. But only one person. That you don't pay attention and are trying to paint some kind of false equivalency between the modern Muslim world and the modern Jewish world is really your trip based on a foundation of not even knowing something BASIC such as that J street exists. I find your entire tactic here very disingenuous and intentionally provocative without a basis in any reality. Just another demonize Israel game and insult Jews while you're at it.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[Grouse]

Sorry, with so much going on I had forgotten about Israel.

 

Is there a boycott? On what?

 

Where can one sign?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Oh, I get it now. You haven't even heard of J Street but instead want to play a personal baiting game. I reject your absurd suggestion that there aren't many visible Jewish voices of condemnation. I'm one person probably not as leftist as J street. I have condemned Israeli policies before, I will again, and I have condemned Bibi's policies before, and will again. That you don't pay attention and are trying to paint some kind of false equivalency between Islamic Jihadist terrorism and modern Jews is really your trip. I find your entire tactic here very disingenuous. 

I'm not doing personal biting. I however wanted to know that you and other moderate Jews are standing with liberal values, even if it would be against what Israel wants. I still don't know what is J street.

In my lifetime I have probably met 10-20 Jews. Half of those from Israel, the other half from other countries. For me there has been huge difference between these two groups of people. So I can be assured that I'm not well informed, but still wish to learn more about the dynamics of both sides.    

 

 

[Elfin]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Oh, I get it now. You haven't even heard of J Street but instead want to play a personal baiting game. I reject your absurd suggestion that there aren't many visible Jewish voices of condemnation of right wing Israeli policies and politicians. I'm one person probably not as leftist as J street as I've grown the respect the tough real world situation Israelis actually live in ... and it's so easy to get on a moral high horse from more comfortable USA though with trump that's changing. Dude -- I personally have condemned some Israeli policies before, I will again, and I have some condemned Bibi's policies before, and will again. But only one person. That you don't pay attention and are trying to paint some kind of false equivalency between the modern Muslim world and the modern Jewish world is really your trip based on a foundation of not even knowing something BASIC such as that J street exists. I find your entire tactic here very disingenuous and intentionally provocative without a basis in any reality. Just another demonize Israel game and insult Jews while you're at it.

Careful Oilinki, you may end up on Jingthing's ignore list like the rest of us here!

[dexterm]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Funny, you fail to mention the Jewish Nakba from the Arab and Muslim world after Israel was established. Dude, Jews are INDIGENOUS to the middle east. Period, end of story. There was a very good reason for Israel to exist and there are very good reasons for Israel to continue to exist. All the Israel demonization propoganda in the world won't change that reality. 

Shouting the word indigenous in upper case does not make it a fact.
Judaism is a religion not a race.

 

This is all part of the "perfect" Zionist narrative:
How can it be land theft if we are native.
How can it be colonization if God promised us the land in the Bible?
How can a BDS boycott be justified if we Jews are actually the natives.

 

You just have to use your eyes. Most of world Jewry after centuries of race diluted by intermarriage and conversion look more like European Caucasians than Palestinians or the their Arab neighbors, because Europe of course is where most came from to colonize Palestine. 

 

But this "being native" claim helps the great Zionist hoax that say a New York Jew is somehow returning home when granted automatic citizenship, although he has never set eyes on the place before,  justifying the theft of land from local Palestinians, while the Palestinian refugees who still have their keys are not allowed to return to their confiscated homes just a few minutes away in Israel.

 

That is the great injustice that BDS is fighting.

[Jingthing]

J street's position on this issue.

Sounds very reasonable to me.

Against BDS.

Against this new Israeli law.

 

The general problem I have with J street is that there is a certain gall giving morality lectures to Israelis from the comfort of living in the USA. American Jews don't appreciate being lectured to by Israelis about our domestic political choices, which are generally much more liberal than Israeli political choices.

It's a difficult relationship. 

 

Quote

KNESSET BILL BANNING BDS SUPPORTERS FROM ISRAEL DAMAGES ISRAEL’S DEMOCRACY – AND HELPS BDS MOVEMENT

http://jstreet.org/press-releases/knesset-bill-banning-bds-supporters-israel-damages-israels-democracy-helps-bds-movement/#.WL6xp_mGNPY

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jingthing

[bangkok101]

12 hours ago, mania said:

Jeez you just described all the Lefty Snowflakes in the USA 

Unfortunately their citizens

right on!

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

First of all, there's no obligation to quote the post replied to, only not to edit it in a way which changes the meaning etc. (you'll know all about that, surely). IMO, a double exposure of your rants is not always necessary. Secondly, I did not misrepresent you - "So much for the fake claims that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East". You can, as you often blame others "nitpick" and say this  does not amount to a statement rejecting Israel as a democracy. Good luck with that.

 

All of the above, worn links and all, amount to a single thing - you nonsensical position that democracy (when it comes to Israel) is an either/or proposition. It would seem, that as far as you're concerned, Israel cannot be called a democracy unless it fully lives up to an unattainable ideal. That there are plenty of countries demonstrating various degrees and forms of democracy apparently fails to register in some posters hate-addled minds.

 

Israel is far from being a perfect example of a democracy, and I have posted many a times to that effect. Is it the worst country on Earth? Hardly (well, unless you're one the hate junkies). Is it the worse place in the region? Doubt it. Are there better examples of democracy in the Middle East? Do tell.

 

It boils down to which standard is used. IMO, expecting Israel to fully conform with the Western ideal, while ignoring the differences in circumstances, is not a realistic position. It does not necessarily mean, though, that the standard ought to be set as low as Israel's neighbors. Obviously, not a view that would appeal to those hung on either/or, black and white take on things.

 

I may also add, that may of the instances cited, including the OP, are not Israeli positions, but the product of right wing coalition government legislation. If one feels that's good enough to repeatedly condemn the whole country, that's a choice. Most posters do not bother much with such differentiation, as it messes with the usual narrative, and the simplistic world view attached.

 

If it wasn't clear enough from my previous posts, I do not think the bill is a bright idea, to say the least. I also don't see it as a contribution to strengthening Israel's democracy, quite the opposite. That doesn't necessitate adopting your ideas or rhetoric, of course. And if already referencing the from the Haaretz article, you may have noted that some of my earlier comments regarding the law being redundant. I'm pretty sure another article will appear soon enough to cover the other point made - the motivation for the bill being more related to domestic politics than to grand designs.