thaibeachlovers Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 On 3/14/2017 at 6:18 PM, ilostmypassword said: There's so many things wrong with your reply that it's hard to know where to begin. First off, "everything is negotiable" cuts 2 ways. An Iraqi could just as well say that about the Americans' demand for troop immunity. But more importantly you seem to have amnesia about who was the president of Iran at the time. It was Nouri al-Maliki the hand picked choice of the Bush Administration. His chief aim was persecuting Sunnis and he feared, quite rightly, that US troops would interfere with that program. In addition, he was very closely allied with the Iranians, who, you might be surprised to learn, share a 1458 kilometer border with Iraq. That's roughly 1458 kilometers longer than the border that the USA shares with Iraq. So no, there was virtually no chance that the US could have negotiated such an agreement. I think you meant Nouri al-Maliki was president of Iraq. As this is off topic I will not debate it any longer, but I stand by my earlier statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, thaibeachlovers said: I think you meant Nouri al-Maliki was president of Iraq. As this is off topic I will not debate it any longer, but I stand by my earlier statement. Yes, the "Iran" thing as a slip of the finger. But it's very odd since you raised the issue, and now you decide not to debate it. Once again. Bush and Cheney couldn't negotiate acceptable terms for an extension of the US stay, but somehow Obama could have? If everything is negotiable and this issue was so crucially important to them, why couldn't they have accomplished it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, sanemax said: Are you aware of what Trump knows and what the generals know ? You can not possible know what Trump knows and what the Generals know , so , you are in no position to claim that its a lie Guaranteed he does not know as much as a general who's entire job it is to know all about ISIS. Guaranteed. So yes, it's a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, craigt3365 said: Guaranteed he does not know as much as a general who's entire job it is to know all about ISIS. Guaranteed. So yes, it's a lie. Do you realise that Trump is above the Generals in the U.S Army ? Trump may also have access to information , through the C.I.A , Secret Services etc that the Generals do not have access to . So, its quite possible, quite probably even , that Trump knows more about ISIS, than his generals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said: Yes, the "Iran" thing as a slip of the finger. But it's very odd since you raised the issue, and now you decide not to debate it. Once again. Bush and Cheney couldn't negotiate acceptable terms for an extension of the US stay, but somehow Obama could have? If everything is negotiable and this issue was so crucially important to them, why couldn't they have accomplished it? It's off topic and I am not going to debate it on this thread for what should be an obvious reason. I don't make the rules on TVF. If there is another thread about Iraq in 2014 I'll debate it there. BTW I didn't raise the issue. I was responding to an earlier post. Nuff said. Edited March 16, 2017 by thaibeachlovers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigt3365 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, sanemax said: Do you realise that Trump is above the Generals in the U.S Army ? Trump may also have access to information , through the C.I.A , Secret Services etc that the Generals do not have access to . So, its quite possible, quite probably even , that Trump knows more about ISIS, than his generals Trump doesn't attend security briefings, remember? Bush was above the generals also. So you are saying he knew more about this than the generals also? You're fighting a losing battle here....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, craigt3365 said: Trump doesn't attend security briefings, remember? Bush was above the generals also. So you are saying he knew more about this than the generals also? You're fighting a losing battle here....LOL None of us know anything about what Trump does or doesn't know. However, if he sends US troops to do the job, that's fine with me. Guys join up to fight the enemy, not stay safe and warm in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 10 hours ago, sanemax said: He didnt say that he said "I know more about ISIS than the generals" He has more information than the generals Yes, he did. There's a clip posted previously in the topic. 6 minutes ago, sanemax said: Do you realise that Trump is above the Generals in the U.S Army ? Trump may also have access to information , through the C.I.A , Secret Services etc that the Generals do not have access to . So, its quite possible, quite probably even , that Trump knows more about ISIS, than his generals Trump may be above them in the chain of command, that does not automatically turn him into an expert or denotes he's more knowledgeable, informed or possess better judgement. The claims about knowing better than the generals were made during the election campaign. And as posted above, Trump doesn't seem to place a whole lot of value in being briefed on such issues. Here's a list of "no one knows better" coming from the POTUS: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: None of us know anything about what Trump does or doesn't know. However, if he sends US troops to do the job, that's fine with me. Guys join up to fight the enemy, not stay safe and warm in the US. Oh, yes we do. Enough public statements to gauge he's rather clueless on some issues. And if people have no idea what Trump knows or doesn't know, what does it say about the president or the electorate? Trump made a whole lot of claims about knowing pretty much everything. As per script, now he's deemed not even responsible for what he says.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, craigt3365 said: Trump doesn't attend security briefings, remember? Bush was above the generals also. So you are saying he knew more about this than the generals also? You're fighting a losing battle here....LOL Maybe he doesnt , that doesnt prove anything . As hes the top man, he probably gives the content of the briefings or confers with them . Trump is the top man in the U.S Army, its his job to know everything that is going on , the Generals are there to take orders from Trump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, sanemax said: Maybe he doesnt , that doesnt prove anything . As hes the top man, he probably gives the content of the briefings or confers with them . Trump is the top man in the U.S Army, its his job to know everything that is going on , the Generals are there to take orders from Trump So you assume someone who just got into office possess superior knowledge and understanding of whatever matters he is in charge of, regardless of lacking any prior relevant experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, Morch said: Oh, yes we do. O.K. I will listen to you . Tell me something that Trump doesnt know, which the generals do know . Come on, give some examples of what the Generals know that Trump doesnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, sanemax said: O.K. I will listen to you . Tell me something that Trump doesnt know, which the generals do know . Come on, give some examples of what the Generals know that Trump doesnt Anything directly pertaining to their field of expertise. Trump isn't a military man. It's not like you can absorb all this knowledge in a few weeks, even if he was so inclined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Morch said: So you assume someone who just got into office possess superior knowledge and understanding of whatever matters he is in charge of, regardless of lacking any prior relevant experience? I am not claiming to know what either Trump knows or what the Generals know, Im simply stating that you can not possibly claim that its a lie . You can not "Guarantee that its a lie" , the most you can say is that you think its probably incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubster Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: None of us know anything about what Trump does or doesn't know. However, if he sends US troops to do the job, that's fine with me. Guys join up to fight the enemy, not stay safe and warm in the US. I would guess more than 50% of these troops join to escape poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, sanemax said: I am not claiming to know what either Trump knows or what the Generals know, Im simply stating that you can not possibly claim that its a lie . You can not "Guarantee that its a lie" , the most you can say is that you think its probably incorrect I can guarantee that he doesn't know as much as generals do on military matters. The same goes for any professional discipline he never mastered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubster Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Morch said: Anything directly pertaining to their field of expertise. Trump isn't a military man. It's not like you can absorb all this knowledge in a few weeks, even if he was so inclined. That could be said of all office secretaries too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, sanemax said: Maybe he doesnt , that doesnt prove anything . As hes the top man, he probably gives the content of the briefings or confers with them . Trump is the top man in the U.S Army, its his job to know everything that is going on , the Generals are there to take orders from Trump Hmmmm. Trump may be commander in chief, but he doesn't have to know everything- that's why he has military advisers. He only has to give policy direction to them to carry out and make a decision when required to. ie, he tells them that he wants IS taken care of and they formulate different strategies. Then he has to decide, along with his advisers which strategy to follow, as the buck stops with him. No way does he have to know everything that is going on. That would be impossible for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Grubster said: That could be said of all office secretaries too. If they do not have previous relevant experience, sure. There is a difference between being in a position to make decisions and actually knowing "best". We (the electorate) assume people in such positions make decisions based upon professional input by experienced personnel. There is no reason to assume a politician will become the fountain of knowledge simply because he won an elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: Hmmmm. Trump may be commander in chief, but he doesn't have to know everything- that's why he has military advisers. He only has to give policy direction to them to carry out and make a decision when required to. ie, he tells them that he wants IS taken care of and they formulate different strategies. Then he has to decide, along with his advisers which strategy to follow, as the buck stops with him. No way does he have to know everything that is going on. That would be impossible for anyone. Although , he would confer with all the military advisers , CIA , other Countries , etc O.K. maybe he doesnt know everything , but , IMO , its quite safe to say that he knows more than the generals , for the simple fact that he was a wider range of information sources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubster Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Morch said: If they do not have previous relevant experience, sure. There is a difference between being in a position to make decisions and actually knowing "best". We (the electorate) assume people in such positions make decisions based upon professional input by experienced personnel. There is no reason to assume a politician will become the fountain of knowledge simply because he won an elections. The fact is Trump said he knows more about ISSIS, at no time did he say he knew more about how to combat them then his generals do. You are twisting those facts. In one short meeting with the intelligence agencies you or I could learn a lot about ISSIS that the generals do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, sanemax said: Although , he would confer with all the military advisers , CIA , other Countries , etc O.K. maybe he doesnt know everything , but , IMO , its quite safe to say that he knows more than the generals , for the simple fact that he was a wider range of information sources That would assume that Trump actually does all that. Featuring news stories do not indicate that he consults intelligence agencies all that much or pays heed to their input. Generals on top levels will have access to similar information, and in all probability, more detailed versions of such. Operations like the one carried out in Yemen involve more than military sources of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 1 minute ago, Grubster said: The fact is Trump said he knows more about ISSIS, at no time did he say he knew more about how to combat them then his generals do. You are twisting those facts. In one short meeting with the intelligence agencies you or I could learn a lot about ISSIS that the generals do not know. The one doing the twisting is yourself. Trump claims to know or do "best" a whole lot of things. He actually said that he's got a plan how to defeat IS, by the way. And no, you couldn't get superior knowledge of IS through "one short meeting with intelligence agencies", not when relevant generals are exposed to similar briefings as a matter or routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubster Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Morch said: The one doing the twisting is yourself. Trump claims to know or do "best" a whole lot of things. He actually said that he's got a plan how to defeat IS, by the way. And no, you couldn't get superior knowledge of IS through "one short meeting with intelligence agencies", not when relevant generals are exposed to similar briefings as a matter or routine. You are wrong, these generals are only told what the administration and intelligence wants them to know, they have no rights to the truth or the facts. We are not talking about a whole lot of things, He said he new more about ISSIS than the generals do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 55 minutes ago, sanemax said: O.K. I will listen to you . Tell me something that Trump doesnt know, which the generals do know . Come on, give some examples of what the Generals know that Trump doesnt The generals knew that it was not militarily feasible to confiscate Iraq's oil. Of course, anybody with half a wit would know that such a thing wouldn't be militarily feasible. Something that Trump said several times that the USA should have done. A massively and demonstrably ignorant man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said: The generals knew that it was not militarily feasible to confiscate Iraq's oil. Of course, anybody with half a wit would know that such a thing wouldn't be militarily feasible. Something that Trump said several times that the USA should have done. A massively and demonstrably ignorant man. Although maybe not the military, but private oil companies could have gone into Iraq and taken the oil . With the oil wells already in place , it wouldnt have been too difficult to go and confiscate the oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, sanemax said: Although maybe not the military, but private oil companies could have gone into Iraq and taken the oil . With the oil wells already in place , it wouldnt have been too difficult to go and confiscate the oil Wow! I didn't think anybody but Donald Trump could believe that this was feasible. Have you given a moment's thought to the logistics of this? Of private oil companies protecting oil fields from constant sabotage? Lunacy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanemax Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Just now, ilostmypassword said: Wow! I didn't think anybody but Donald Trump could believe that this was feasible. Have you given a moment's thought to the logistics of this? Of private oil companies protecting oil fields from constant sabotage? Lunacy! When the U.S Army over ran Southern Iraq , it would have been quite easy to defend those oil wells and transport the oil through Kuwait . Private oil companies working with the U.S Army for protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 33 minutes ago, Grubster said: You are wrong, these generals are only told what the administration and intelligence wants them to know, they have no rights to the truth or the facts. We are not talking about a whole lot of things, He said he new more about ISSIS than the generals do. I am not wrong. For one thing, who exactly are "these" generals referred to? Do you imagine that all generals receive the same access and the same information? Or that some information and intelligence are not regularly and routinely shared between agencies (including the military)? "No rights to the truth or the facts"? Where does this come from? You think military planning is based on what, exactly? Trump said he knew more about ISIS than "the generals" do. He said he's got a plan how to defeat ISIS. He says a whole lot of things. Many of them take a wild imagination to believe, or even conceive as being true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilostmypassword Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 38 minutes ago, Grubster said: You are wrong, these generals are only told what the administration and intelligence wants them to know, they have no rights to the truth or the facts. We are not talking about a whole lot of things, He said he new more about ISSIS than the generals do. I want to thank you so much for this information. Could you please share the source of it with u?. Because now we have information that could quite possibly lead to Trump's impeachment. Imagine the headlines! TRUMP WITHHOLDS INTELLIGENCE FROM GENERALS! PUTS TROOPS IN HARM'S WAY! Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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