What to make out of these readings?

[zappalot]

Total hardness is way to high

No total chlorine

Free chlorine?

pH - confusing, test kit one it seems to have a pH way to high and test kit 2 way to low?????? 

total alkalinity: high to very high...

Cyanuric Acid: to high

 

 

[Crossy]

I am no pool expert!

 

The first thing I note is that the test vials in image 2 are not correctly filled to the line.

 

I have a similar simple kit and I've never seen the chlorine side go anything other than yellow, are you quite sure you used the correct bottles? If they are the wrong way round it would at least have the two kits agree the pH is rather too high.

 

I have noticed that the other readings on the strips are unreliable if the pH is miles off so I would concentrate on getting that somewhere in range before worrying about other stuff.

 

Has the pool in question been neglected, badly maintained, new startup?

 

It may (if the pool isn't too massive) be more viable to replace the water for a known starting point.

 

Experts will be along shortly I hope.

 

EDIT You are holding the test strips the right way round too aren't you? The colours would seem more sensible if reversed.

 

EDIT 2 I checked my test strips, they have the long tab (to hold it by) at the CYA end, so when held in the right hand pointing left (where you are holding the chart) with the chart the right way up everything aligns. I have to think of these things being left handed and naturally holding everything the wrong way round.

[sappersrest]

Crossey is indeed correct you are holding the strip upside down, cynuric acid is next to the the bit you hold with your fingers

Edited March 15, 2017 by sappersrest

[sappersrest]

My interpretation of the readings is

 cynuric around 100 ppm

T/A  low

pH 6.2

Fee chlorine very high 20 ppm 

total chlorine

hardness high

 

The big problem you have is that the chlorine levels are so high the test strips are suffering bleaching so really make the results meaning less apart from the pH and even that can be affected.

 

I would suggest you do a dilution test as previously described to you until you get a mid range chorine read then multiply the answer by the correct factor.

For  chlorine  and all other ppm readings will not work forpH

Take a 50ml sample of pool water to this add 50 ml of distilled water (as we are not into life threatening science here bottled water will suffice) mix the two together then cary out your test multiply the answer x 2 that should give you a result.

 

If you still cannot get a reading carry out the following

Take a 20ml sample of pool water to this add 80 ml of distilled water (as we are not into life threatening science here bottled water will suffice) mix the two together then cary out your test multiply the answer x 5 that should give you a result.

 

If you still cannot get a reading carry out the following

Take a 10ml sample of pool water to this add 90 ml of distilled water (as we are not into life threatening science here bottled water will suffice) mix the two together then cary out your test multiply the answer x 10 that should give you a result.

 

Makers name and expiry date of strips please.

[zappalot]

Ok, I see. I was totally wrong holding the strip upside down.

Everything makes much more sense now. @Crossy: In the beginning I thought the same you do, that I mixed up using the right chemicals for the simple testing kit. But I can rule that out. If you have way too much chlorine in the pool the color for the chlorine turns red. And finally, in accordance with the strip (holding it the right way now) is to low.

So far our swimming pool of our condominium was managed very bad. They didn't care about anything and on top one water pump is out of order and need to be replaced now. This is our pool: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/628038-algae-growing-in-the-pool/

 

Because they never cared about what is in there in the pool I ordered this test kit. How can they take care a pool if they do not even know what is inside...

 

Then my readings are the following:

total hardness: way too high with about 1000

total chlorine: about 10

free chlorine: around 10 as well, way too high 

pH: Is about 6.8

Total alkalinity: 0

Cyanuric acid: I would say between 50 and 100

 

So one thing that need to be bought is Sodium Bicarbonate...

 

[sappersrest]

OK. Before I advise any further can you take a sample  half bottled water half pool water take a test accurately measured please,.

Post the results with a photo if poss

No need to do any calculations  just the results as you test.

not to worry about pH.

Do you have a tds meter.?

At the moment you need to get the two basic components right ,chlorine and Ph as they have safety implications.

The alkalinity can be tackled next, this is important  to keep your pH stable and to prevent the water to become less corrosive to the pool structure fittings etc more on that later

 

What type of chlorine are you using photo of lables if poss

 

 

The forum sponsors do a full water testing service if you send them a sample.

 

Is your pool clear now?

[zappalot]

I will go over to our condo and to the test you suggested with half bottled water/half swimming pool water. Anyway without the water pump the situation will not get better at soon, so we have to wait for the new one.

 

Anyway this is how the pool looked like yesterday when I measured the values:

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by zappalot

[sappersrest]

The pump should be replaced as a matter of urgency, as you can't vac the algae settled on the bottom of the pool,

Do not waste any more test strips until you have had the pool vaced and the circulation run for 24 hours at least as the results will be meaningless..

How long do the pumps run for normally,

As the pool is out of commission it might be worth draining some water out say 20 percent and filling it with fresh water.

 

[zappalot]

Okay, something is working in the pool again. It was not the pump that broke down but something around the filter. Already Friday afternoon the filter problem was fixed. After they started to run the pump and the filter again the dirt that settled on the bottom of the pool was mixed up into the pool water. So the water went from clear to milky/slightly greenish again.

Anyway  the pool is looking a little bit better today, slightly milky right now.

 

Problem is that they don't like if a foreigner is telling them what is wrong. 

 

Anyway in addition of the chlorine they only used until last week at least they now add soda ashes to rise the pH value/Total alkalinity.

 

These were the values from this morning:

Edited March 20, 2017 by zappalot

[sappersrest]

Assuming your pool is  130 cubic meters

then you need to add the following chemicals

 

To raise the alkalinity you need to add sodium bicarbonate NaHCO3  25 kg approx

 

To raise the pH you need to add sodium carbonate Na2CO3   (Soda ash) 15 kg approx

 

In your case you really should get the total alkalinity sorted first, get to around 120ppm

 

DO NOT ADD THE CHEMICALS ALL IN ONE GO MAKE SURE THE PUMP IS RUNNING 24/7 ENSURING THE FILTER IS CLEAN

ADD THE sodium bicarbonate NaHCO3  FIRST.

the best way to do this is  little at a time........

 

Day 1 morning add 2.5 kg dissolved in water sprinkle evenly around pool

           Evening the same add 2.5 kg test the water. Then backwash the filter as some of the fines may clog the filter up depending coefficient   the filter is.

 Day 2 as above until you reach the desired effect  doing the same every day.

 

Once you have got the desired readings with the t/a Then you can proceed to adjust the pH using the same method .

 

This may to some may appear little long winded but it is the best way to achieve the end result .

My previous recommendation still stands dump some of your pool water as the chlorine levels are high.( YOU COULD DO THIS CHEMICALLY BUT IT IS NOT FOR A NOVICE TO DO).

 

The old proverb is probably a good one in this case ,The solution to pollution is dilution.

 

Any problems pm me and I will do my best to help.

[zappalot]

Do you have an idea what that is?

 

[Crossy]

http://www.ima-na.org/?page=what_is_diatomite

 

If you have a diatomaceous earth filter it's the stuff you use to regenerate it.

 

[sappersrest]

Do not put that in the pool .

 

[zappalot]

After we had a green swimming pool two more times during April a few other co-owners supported me so that the management had no other choice than to let me try to fix the pool issues.

 

I think I learned a lot things to the really helpful answers here in this forum.

 

They had to buy some baking soda and the total alkalinity is up already. Seems it's not rocket science to keep a pool healthy.

 

Anyway there are still some questions:

 

The pool is run with a DE filter system. They bring out the filter every day and clean it and replace the DE. From what I read throughout the Internet I would say this is not necessary. They just have to figure out the size of the filter. Then they can add the right amount of DE. And only if the pressure shown by the pressure gauge reaches a certain value a backwash is necessary.

From the label I see several different described filters with sizes and other information for our filter system. Where do I know from which one I exactly have?

I googled around and most likely it's either the DE 4820 or the DE  6020.

 

But it seems the amount of DE must be quite exactly the one recommended by the manufacturer.

 

The next thing is after one day our filter looks like the one in the photo (it is ours). Unfortunately the pressure gauge is destroyed so we cannot exactly say when the pressure is too high but just from my feeling if they backwash once or twice a week that should be okay, right? I read reports from several swimming pool owners back washing a lot less and never have a problem with their pool. of course they try to get the replacement for the pressure gauge but since we are in Thailand and our staff is super slowly I don't know when the replacement unit will be delivered.

 

Would be nice to hear some thoughts.Thank you.

[sappersrest]

DE filters are very efficient but a big pain in the backside, the filters need to be recharged and cleaned , to the manufacturers hand book. 

Can you not change to a sand filter less problems ,easy to backwash, though i say sand there are plenty of other filter medias on the market.

Also the disposal of DE is carefully controlled in some countries.

[zappalot]

Sappersrest, Thank you very much for your recommendation. I agree with you, we should keep things as easy as possible. But with the current management of our building I do not see any chance of replacing anything.. As of now I must be happy if they let me coordinate the maintenance.

 

Things got a lot better already. Now I try to get together the funds to renovate the swimming pool. New grout need to be applied since it's partly eaten away 100%. I know that I need to acid wash everything first. Then a Certain special kind of grout needs to be applied. My rough estimation of the cost is about 100,000 baht. 

 

See the following picture, there's almost no grout left.

[Naam]

On 3/15/2017 at 10:46 AM, zappalot said:

total chlorine: about 10

free chlorine: around 10 as well, way too high 

pH: Is about 6.8

these two results are something next to impossible (pH too low for high Cl content).

Edited June 11, 2017 by Naam

[Naam]

On 5/24/2017 at 1:06 PM, sappersrest said:

DE filters are very efficient but a big pain in the backside, the filters need to be recharged and cleaned , to the manufacturers hand book. 

Can you not change to a sand filter less problems ,easy to backwash, though i say sand there are plenty of other filter medias on the market.

Also the disposal of DE is carefully controlled in some countries.

15 years DE filter. never any problem. even with my present sand filter i use additional DE 2-3 times a year, let the pump run for 6 hours and then do a regular backwash.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Naam

[zappalot]

8 minutes ago, Naam said:

these two results are something next to impossible (pH too low for high Cl content).

these were the readings of my test kit on this day. Back then the total alkalinity was almost 0. At this time they didn't believe what I was saying. They tried with plenty of kilos of soda ashes for several months to rise the pH. 
Only after finally they let me take over the pool management and due to the helpful advice here I purchased baking soda to rise the total alkalinity first. Once the total alkalinity was where it should be it was easy to take care of the pH value.

[sappersrest]

Do not be tempted to use a strong acid solution, it will remove the glaze on the tiles.

To remove the the dirt on the tiles that are on and above the water line use SODIM BICARBONATE.

When you power wash there could be a chance that you may loose some tiles  due to the fact that water has affected the adhesive where there has been no grout.

Remember every bit of old grout Must be remove other wise the regrouting will not be successful.

If possible use a 2 part epoxy grout.

 

[sappersrest]

4 hours ago, Naam said:

these two results are something next to impossible (pH too low for high Cl content).

Not correct if using stabilized chlorine the affect of the isocysanurates will lower the pH, that is why soda ash is use to raise the pH in such cases.

 

You are correct if say you are  using unstabalized chlorine i.e. sodium hypochlorite.

[sappersrest]

From the picture you posted previously you indeed have an overflow pool.

 

However 

It is indeed  essential to have skimmers with an over flow pool when you have a freeboard abutting the pool i.e. a feature  wall. or raised  walkway 

more photos please.

Edited June 11, 2017 by sappersrest

[grollies]

@sappersrest

 

OK, so today after 12 months using a crappy drop test kit for pH & Cl I bought some test strips for:

 

1) sodium chloride

2) cyanuric acid

3) free chlorine

4) alkalinity

5) pH

6) total hardness

 

My pool is 12 x 5 x 1.7(av) 100,000 litres.

 

I have a salt chlorinator fom Aus - Saltigem with output to peristaltic acid dosing pump.

 

I've just tested the water as follows:

 

1) 2,500ppm sodium chl

2) 40 ppm cyanuric acid

3) 0 ppm free Cl

4) 80ppm alkalinity

5) 8.4 pH

6) 100ppm TH

 

The salt chlorinator is not performing I think because the salinity is too low.

 

The peristaltic pump doesn't run as the chlorinator is not producing much (any) Cl? It has run previously but we've had a lot of rain recently.

 

pH is way high I know.

 

My initial fix is:

 

to add more salt and see if Cl production improves

 

add chlorine tabs if not

 

add acid to reduce pH

 

I have some black algae issues - brushing, vaccing, adding algicide and most has now gone. My fault for not vaccing the pool for 2 weeks......

 

Can you have a look at the above and comment please?

[sappersrest]

Just had a quick read through manual for your controller, the pH could be high due to an incorrect setting in the buffer/ acid plus menu.

Certainly add more salt up to 4000 ppm.

Hardness should be slightly higher this can be addressed by the use of calcium flakes.or using calcium hyochlorite as an aditional chlorine doner 

Reduce pH  to 7.2 

Cynuric acid perfect reading don't let it go above 80 ppm

T/A good.

What acid are you using?

Perhaps raise the cl levels up to 3ppm   then let the controller maintain it

Will have another proper read through your manual tomorrow in case the glaringly obvious has been missed.by the way it is probably one of the best I have read.

[sappersrest]

This company do an app for calculating chemical usage looks really good at 6 pounds a pop it can't be bad.

 

http://www.lowrycg.com/pool-acid-dose-calculator/

 

A good read for all pool owners

 

http://dl.lovibond.com/handbuch_gb.pdf

 

Lovibond also do a really good app for calculating the pools saturation index its called pool M8 if you like to go that deep into pool chemistry it was free.

[grollies]

13 hours ago, sappersrest said:

Just had a quick read through manual for your controller, the pH could be high due to an incorrect setting in the buffer/ acid plus menu.

Certainly add more salt up to 4000 ppm.

Hardness should be slightly higher this can be addressed by the use of calcium flakes.or using calcium hyochlorite as an aditional chlorine doner 

Reduce pH  to 7.2 

Cynuric acid perfect reading don't let it go above 80 ppm

T/A good.

What acid are you using?

Perhaps raise the cl levels up to 3ppm   then let the controller maintain it

Will have another proper read through your manual tomorrow in case the glaringly obvious has been missed.by the way it is probably one of the best I have read.

Hydrochloric acid 33% solution

[sappersrest]

The only thing I can see in the manual that may have affected the ability of the the equipment is that maybe the  manual acid dosing mode has not been set back to auto.

Ok now for the very bad news, 33% acid should not be use to dose directly into the pool, as you are probably aware  it gases off terribly , in turn the fumes will destroy every bit of metal in your plant room, and will coat everything  in a slimy gung.

Even in the commercial world this is diluted down by at least 30-1 before use .

Peralstaltic pumps and hydrochloric acid do not get on very well , the acid makes the rubber squeeze tube porous this will in turn make the roller assembly brittle reducing the life of the squeeze rubbers down to a matter of a couple of months instead of the six monthly replacement time ,the rollers should last certainly a few years depending on use.

 

The two best acids for you to use will be Sodium bisulphate granuals dissolved in a small day tank, and pump from there.

My choice of acid would be 26% or 18% sulphuric acid  if you can it is a good acid to work with and does not gas off.,this can be dosed directly into the system, like all stuff we put in our pools the downside is it will add unwanted bits in this case sulfides, but with regular maintenance backwashing etc it should not be a problem.

 

As perhaps as a matter of course it may be prudent to order in some spares squeeze tubes rollers  injectors and a spare roll of tube as the acid will have destroyed that as well.

Edited June 14, 2017 by sappersrest

[grollies]

1 hour ago, sappersrest said:

The only thing I can see in the manual that may have affected the ability of the the equipment is that maybe the  manual acid dosing mode has not been set back to auto.

Ok now for the very bad news, 33% acid should not be use to dose directly into the pool, as you are probably aware  it gases off terribly , in turn the fumes will destroy every bit of metal in your plant room, and will coat everything  in a slimy gung.

Even in the commercial world this is diluted down by at least 30-1 before use .

Peralstaltic pumps and hydrochloric acid do not get on very well , the acid makes the rubber squeeze tube porous this will in turn make the roller assembly brittle reducing the life of the squeeze rubbers down to a matter of a couple of months instead of the six monthly replacement time ,the rollers should last certainly a few years depending on use.

 

The two best acids for you to use will be Sodium bisulphate granuals dissolved in a small day tank, and pump from there.

My choice of acid would be 26% or 18% sulphuric acid  if you can it is a good acid to work with and does not gas off.,this can be dosed directly into the system, like all stuff we put in our pools the downside is it will add unwanted bits in this case sulfides, but with regular maintenance backwashing etc it should not be a problem.

 

As perhaps as a matter of course it may be prudent to order in some spares squeeze tubes rollers  injectors and a spare roll of tube as the acid will have destroyed that as well.

No, no, no, of course I don't plumb 33% hydrochloric acid straight into the dosing pump.

 

In fact I've only recently rigged the pump up to the chlorinator using water to see how well it worked.

 

It did for a while but then stopped and i'll check the autodose setting (I think the salinity went too low, I'll get onto Saltigem if things don't start working again).

 

I dilute 500ml acid to 20 litres water and manually add to the pool. Done this twice only.

 

Acid is stored in a sealed drum. I decant outdoors (I'm a bit daft sometimes but not that daft!).

 

The pump room is ventilated with floor-level air blocks and roof gap and a fan runs when the pump is on. No acid fumes, gunk and steel supports are still shiny 

[sappersrest]

Remember using hydrochloric acid  will lower your total alkalinity

Using dry acid sodium bisulphate will raise your t/a.

Your t/a at present is about spot on could go a little higher but certainly not any lower as you will have trouble maintaining a stable pH.

Even diluted hydrochlocric acid will destroy the squeeze rubber in the pump and feed lines.(Used to be a nice little bit of extra on service visits i.e. 4 times a year instead of once)

One other thing to check is the base of the pump ,sometimes there are two little pins these form a volt free contact,  if the pump should leak contact across the two will stop the pump.

 

If you do obtain squeeze tubes locally remember the internal diameter should be the same as this determines the output of the pump as well as the motor speed ,buy by the meter it is much cheaper.

Good luck Frank

 

[grollies]

16 minutes ago, sappersrest said:

Remember using hydrochloric acid  will lower your total alkalinity

Using dry acid sodium bisulphate will raise your t/a.

Your t/a at present is about spot on could go a little higher but certainly not any lower as you will have trouble maintaining a stable pH.

Even diluted hydrochlocric acid will destroy the squeeze rubber in the pump and feed lines.(Used to be a nice little bit of extra on service visits i.e. 4 times a year instead of once)

One other thing to check is the base of the pump ,sometimes there are two little pins these form a volt free contact,  if the pump should leak contact across the two will stop the pump.

 

If you do obtain squeeze tubes locally remember the internal diameter should be the same as this determines the output of the pump as well as the motor speed ,buy by the meter it is much cheaper.

Good luck Frank

 

Thank you mate, your advice and your time giving it is always appreciated.