Do I need a lawyer to buy a condo?

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, sarwardee said:

We have sent letters, made phone calls, added % fine, and suggested legal action, but still ... nothing.

So much baht still outstanding that it makes it difficult to run the condo properly.

 

If debts remain unpaid after proper notice is given then you can cut off the supply of any utility or service that is supplied and billed by the condo. In most buildings this would probably mean things like water and cable TV, but probably not electricity. You should give notice of that immediately and carry it out as soon as practical.

In theory you can also prohibit access of co-owners or their tenants to common areas like pools and car parks and elevators. Quite how you go about doing that depends on the layout of your building. In some (those with RFID key-cards) it could be easy but in others it could be very hard.

Also co-owners with unpaid debts lose their voting rights at GMs, though they probably wont care about this.

 

I would think that you have to go further than "suggest legal action". I think you need to pay a lawyer to send a letter explaining very bluntly that if the bills aren't paid with x weeks then a case will be filed with the court. The cost of sending such a letter should be very low. People tend to take notice when they think it's getting serious, but not before.

 

 

3 hours ago, sarwardee said:

Why was this allowed to happen here?

 

I think Thais are very laissez-faire and many of them are keen to avoid both confrontation and effort. I dont think that is in any way desirable as it just leads to anarchy and chaos.

[scubascuba3]

If buying a condo are you allowed to see the state of affairs of the sinking fund? I.e how many condos aren't paying etc. Important info but i bet a well kept secret

[KittenKong]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

If buying a condo are you allowed to see the state of affairs of the sinking fund? I.e how many condos aren't paying etc. Important info but i bet a well kept secret

 

Technically all such information should be available to all and should be in the yearly financial report. In practice some buildings are very good at reporting all this but in some buildings it is never mentioned, even when co-owners ask about it. Some buildings here are massively corrupt. Those who live in good buildings probably dont know how bad the bad ones can be and many of those in bad buildings are probably unaware of just how bad their building really is.

[trogers]

55 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

If debts remain unpaid after proper notice is given then you can cut off the supply of any utility or service that is supplied and billed by the condo. In most buildings this would probably mean things like water and cable TV, but probably not electricity. You should give notice of that immediately and carry it out as soon as practical.

In theory you can also prohibit access of co-owners or their tenants to common areas like pools and car parks and elevators. Quite how you go about doing that depends on the layout of your building. In some (those with RFID key-cards) it could be easy but in others it could be very hard.

Also co-owners with unpaid debts lose their voting rights at GMs, though they probably wont care about this.

 

I would think that you have to go further than "suggest legal action". I think you need to pay a lawyer to send a letter explaining very bluntly that if the bills aren't paid with x weeks then a case will be filed with the court. The cost of sending such a letter should be very low. People tend to take notice when they think it's getting serious, but not before.

 

 

 

I think Thais are very laissez-faire and many of them are keen to avoid both confrontation and effort. I dont think that is in any way desirable as it just leads to anarchy and chaos.

Not effective if the condo unit is left vacant. A court summons brings immediate attention from laissez-faire attitudes.

 

A warning letter on potential court suit is a standard from the lawyer prior to lodging the case in court.

Edited March 30, 2017 by trogers

[trogers]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Does this mean if the condo owner owes 30,000 baht or above legal action can commence? So what's this 5 year thing mentioned on another thread?

When accumulated unpaid common fees and accrued interest charges reaches Bt30,000 or higher each.

 

So, if a hundred co-owners are not paying, the total becomes Bt3m or more, making it attractive for a legal firm to work for a percentage.

 

If only a few tens of defaulters, the accumulated total may have to be raised higher, to say, Bt50,000 each?

Edited March 30, 2017 by trogers

[KittenKong]

10 minutes ago, trogers said:

When accumulated unpaid common fees and accrued interest charges reaches Bt30,000 or higher.

If only a few tens of defaulters, the accumulated total may have to be raised higher, to say, Bt50,000 each?

 

Where are you getting these figures from? There is nothing written anywhere that I know of.

 

As far as I know any debt worth pursuing can be pursued, and it's entirely up to the committee to decide at what level they wish to do so.

[trogers]

5 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Where are you getting these figures from? There is nothing written anywhere that I know of.

 

As far as I know any debt worth pursuing can be pursued, and it's entirely up to the committee to decide at what level they wish to do so.

Correct. And in one of my condo project, the committee which I was a member, agreed on Bt30,000 as a trigger to make the cost of litigation worth the while.

 

That was in 1998. 

Edited March 30, 2017 by trogers

[KittenKong]

17 minutes ago, trogers said:

Not effective if the condo unit is left vacant.

 

Maybe not, but it is free and easy to do and requires no assistance from anyone outside the building. As such it should be the first step after applying fines/interest and warnings.

 

Another free thing to try is to put up a list of units owing money in a prominent position. Many (not all) Thais would be concerned about this loss of face and would pay up simply to avoid it. Even the threat of publishing a list would get some Thais to pay up.

[trogers]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

 

Maybe not, but it is free and easy to do and requires no assistance from anyone outside the building. As such it should be the first step after applying fines/interest and warnings.

 

Another free thing to try is to put up a list of units owing money in a prominent position. Many (not all) Thais would be concerned about this loss of face and would pay up simply to avoid it. Even the threat of publishing a list would get some Thais to pay up.

We have a huge whiteboard in the Juristic office showing the status of common fees paid or owing of all the units. Debt amounts are written in bright red.

 

Does not change anything because the condo units are left vacant and locked and owners only visit once a year or longer. These were the speculators before the Tomyum Kung crisis.

[KittenKong]

2 minutes ago, trogers said:

Correct. And in one of my condo project, the committee which I was a member, agreed on Bt30,000 as a trigger.

 

 

Well, in that case you should not present this figure to others as having some sort of legal validity or universal application. It's just a figure that your committee decided was good for them at the time. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it isn't law and may not be a suitable amount in other buildings, especially as common fees per unit can vary from 5,000B per year to 10 or 20 times that, or more.

 

I would be particularly concerned about fixing a global level of all debts as being a point at which to take action. If I wanted to fix a level at all it would be on a per unit basis, and I would take action on a case by case basis with each unit. Not least because the circumstances of each co-owner and each debt may be very different.

[scubascuba3]

The other problem I'm aware of is it might be difficult getting on the committee, so even though you may want to improve how things are run / take legal action etc you may be prevented from getting on the committee

[KittenKong]

2 minutes ago, trogers said:

We have a huge whiteboard in the Juristic office showing the status of common fees paid or owing of all the units. Debt amounts are written in bright red.

 

Does not change anything because the condo units are left vacant and locked and owners only visit once a year or longer.

 

Well, I know of buildings in which it worked well. The main advantage is that it is free to do and has no legal impact. If it works, so much the better. If it doesnt work the building has lost nothing.

[KittenKong]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

The other problem I'm aware of is it might be difficult getting on the committee, so even though you may want to improve how things are run / take legal action etc you may be prevented from getting on the committee

 

Yes, all sorts of scams are possible here and I suspect that they happen far more frequently than most condo owners realise. If the committee and JPM are in bed with the recalcitrant co-owners it could go on forever.

And beware of scams involving forced sales of units with the buyers being committee members (or others with inside information), and back payments for old debts that don't pass through the books but still result in debt-free letters being issued. I have personal experience of all of these.

[trogers]

10 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

The other problem I'm aware of is it might be difficult getting on the committee, so even though you may want to improve how things are run / take legal action etc you may be prevented from getting on the committee

I am sure co-owners who turn up for the AGMs are keen to solve problems. Talk to them and vote a few of them into the committee or nominate yourself.

 

In my case, funds were so lacking in 1998 that some of us had to lend money to the Juristic to pay electricity and water bills for the common areas.

[KittenKong]

3 minutes ago, trogers said:

I am sure co-owners who turn up for the AGMs are keen to solve problems. Talk to them and vote a few of them into the committee or nominate yourself.

 

You dont seem to understand just how corrupt some buildings are. I've seen buildings where management arrives at GMs with fake proxy votes that outnumber the votes of those present by 2 to 1.

[trogers]

1 minute ago, KittenKong said:

 

You dont seem to understand just how corrupt some buildings are. I've seen buildings where management arrives at GMs with fake proxy votes that outnumber the votes of those present by 2 to 1.

I think the law only allows each owner to be a proxy for two others, and must be genuine, and not fake.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, trogers said:

I think the law only allows each owner to be a proxy for two others, and must be genuine, and not fake.

 

Actually by law one person can hold three votes and a proxy holder does not have to be an owner.

 

But you seem to have completely missed the point: in some buildings the laws are not respected at all. Complaining that it isnt legal has little effect if the people (committee, JPM, management) supposed to uphold the law are the ones who are disobeying it.

[scubascuba3]

Interesting thread this, i learnt a few things, shame it ended in the almost mandatory thaivisa handbag fight

[champers]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Interesting thread this, i learnt a few things, shame it ended in the almost mandatory thaivisa handbag fight

Not to mention off topic. I don't mind too much; I have learnt plenty too.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

If you are buying from Lumpini directly you definitely don't need a lawyer.

 

Although I find their buildings ugly, they are the most reputable builder in Thailand.

[scubascuba3]

Not to mention off topic. I don't mind too much; I have learnt plenty too.

A bit of off topic can be good and makes threads more interesting, shame they sometimes get removed, maybe this will :)

[champers]

38 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

A bit of off topic can be good and makes threads more interesting, shame they sometimes get removed, maybe this will :)

I think they get removed at the OP's request, but I won't be asking. I have enjoyed the off topic discussions.

[sarwardee]

On 30/03/2017 at 8:32 AM, KittenKong said:

 

Maybe not, but it is free and easy to do and requires no assistance from anyone outside the building. As such it should be the first step after applying fines/interest and warnings.

 

Another free thing to try is to put up a list of units owing money in a prominent position. Many (not all) Thais would be concerned about this loss of face and would pay up simply to avoid it. Even the threat of publishing a list would get some Thais to pay up.

thank you for this; great idea

[wpcoe]

I'm surprised a "name and shame" list of delinquent owners would be legal with the country's severe libel and slander laws.  A delinquent owner could press charges against the poster of the list for defamation.

[balo]

If this is a sale between a private seller and buyer you do need a lawyer to sort out all the documents .   I sold my condo and found a lawyer near the land office who knew all the tricks and it only cost me around 10000 baht .

 

But if you buy directly from the developer you don't need a lawyer , they already have a team of staff helping you with the transfer.  But you need to make sure to check the title deed is ready to be transfered to your name.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johng]

Every month where I live ( not 9 Karat )  management company post a "financial statement"  including names of every tenant and how much they owe  on the wall of the buildings entrance.  ( I have blanked the names list just  in case)

at the bottom of the list there it says  "our apologies if you have already paid, thank you"

 

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by johng

[scubascuba3]

 

But if you buy directly from the developer you don't need a lawyer , they already have a team of staff helping you with the transfer.  But you need to make sure to check the title deed is ready to be transfered to your name.  

But...if you buy by instalments or the resort isn't finished it seems the title deed/chanote won't be transferred into your name. Know otherwise?

 

[balo]

Just now, scubascuba3 said:

But...if you buy by instalments or the resort isn't finished it seems the title deed/chanote won't be transferred into your name?

Yes buying off-plan before it's finished  and you have to wait for the chanote , even if the building is finished it could take 2 years until you receive it.  Like the unit I owned in Paradise  Park  , I could not sell it until I had the chanote in my hand.  That took almost 2 years. ...

 

 

[champers]

1 hour ago, balo said:

Yes buying off-plan before it's finished  and you have to wait for the chanote , even if the building is finished it could take 2 years until you receive it.  Like the unit I owned in Paradise  Park  , I could not sell it until I had the chanote in my hand.  That took almost 2 years. ...

 

 

Thanks, but the development is completed and I do not plan to pay in installments.

[scubascuba3]

Thanks, but the development is completed and I do not plan to pay in installments.

Champers, you were thinking of buying lumpini ville wasn't it? For you it seems it will be a case of heading down the land office (with or without your lawyer) and get the chanote transferred to you / you hand over the cheque.

 

You were quite happy with the 22/26m 1 bed? Everything close together but ok? I noticed some adds where people have beds in the main room rather than a sofa making it a 2 bed, surely a farang wouldn't do that.

 

I'm wondering if the high price per m2 is due to many purchasers having a guaranteed rent return.