18 tigers caught by surveillance cameras in Khao Yai world heritage site

[dageurreotype]

4 hours ago, Briggsy said:

The last attack on a human by a tiger in the Dong Phaya Yen forest complex was on a ranger in Khao Yai over 30 years ago. The tiger was starving as it was old and had lost most of its teeth. For some reason, tigers in Thai forests go to considerable lengths to avoid humans. This is in contrast to Bangladesh where the evidence suggests tigers view humans as prey.

 

So, you should be all right camping.

 

The most dangerous wild animal in Thai forests is the elephant. Numerous interactions with humans resulting in damage to property, injury and sometimes fatality from many of Thailand's NP's.

Whilst I'd 'liked' your post, it then immediately occurred to me that perhaps homo sapiens should stay the fck away from anywhere there are other species making this planet their bloody home also. Just a thought.

[ddavidovsky]

3 hours ago, gdgbb said:

How big is the population?  18 is the number identified on camera, that doesn't mean that there are only 18 in the Park.

Good point, but given that nobody knew they were there, it's likely to be only a small population (<50) rather than a large population (>100). For isolated small populations, inbreeding depression apparently kicks in after a certain number of generations, and give that they have already been isolated for some time, this population might have 25 years max.

 

Catching and relocating them to Huai Kha Khaeng to increase the gene pool there, then giving them complete protection at that place, might be the best chance of Thailand keeping a viable wild population going.

[geisha]

I Went to Fantasia in Kamala  Phuket years back, and they had a majestic white tiger, huuuge, in a glass cage,the poor animal just walked round and round his glass prison, it made me cry. Anyone know if he's still there ? So much animal abuse  !

 

[gdgbb]

5 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

Good point, but given that nobody knew they were there, it's likely to be only a small population (<50) rather than a large population (>100). For isolated small populations, inbreeding depression apparently kicks in after a certain number of generations, and give that they have already been isolated for some time, this population might have 25 years max.

 

Catching and relocating them to Huai Kha Khaeng to increase the gene pool there, then giving them complete protection at that place, might be the best chance of Thailand keeping a viable wild population going.

"... it's likely to be only a small population (<50) rather than a large population (>100)."

 

Not that likely.  As you said yourself, who knows?...you certainly aren't in a position to determine the number.  Neither are you in a position to determine how many of them are unrelated, it's a big jungle out there, one reason that they haven't been caught on film before.  If no one knew that they were there why did they set up cameras?

[Notadoctor]

22 hours ago, Briggsy said:

The primary prey of Indochinese tigers would have been the 2 native wild bovine species, gaur and banteng. However both of these are now extremely rare.

 

They will almost certainly focus on the two prevalent deer species, sambar and muntjac.

 

Wild boar is probably also taken.

 

Fish and small animals would likely be insufficient for a tiger. I have not read any literature suggesting tigers in Thai forests prey on fish.

 

Bear in mind there are 7 other species of wild feline in the Dong Phaya Yen forest complex and they tend to have different prey species allowing co-existence.

"gaur and banteng" - only if they were mad or the prey was young. worldwide tigers eat boar and deer i particular sambar. One of the problems for tigers in the wild is the poaching, not just of themselves, but the poaching of their prey by local and big business hunting parties. tigers need a good prey population to thrive.

 

their habitat needs to include streams where these creatures come to drink this is where the tigers get there food.

 

This is one of the reasons that the proposed Mae Wong dam is such a threat to the newly increased population in the WFC at Huay Kha Khaeng.

 

The result is that one of the main enemies of the wild tiger in Thailand is the authorities.

On the ground rangers and scientists are working hard to preserve the bio-systems that support tigers.....they are having some success - maybe simply stopping poachers....and this is to be praised.

one the other hand the Thai authorities are promoting the unnecessary Mae Wong Dam (lots of money in it for civil servants, contractors, loggers and developers) and allowing the proliferation of Tiger zoos and entertainment venues that mislead the public and potentially  facilitate and promote the illegal trade in tigers and tiger parts.

 

It would be a great shame if the government tried to take credit for this themselves and claimed a "victory" - it is not; it is just a bit of good news and should not be abused to justify the overall apparent indifference by the authorities to the plight of the tiger and the environments required for its existence.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Notadoctor

[Notadoctor]

16 hours ago, gdgbb said:

How big is the population?  18 is the number identified on camera, that doesn't mean that there are only 18 in the Park.

The population size for he area is probably quite accurate. It is estimated by the amount of prey available, and scat / traces they leave plus motion sensitive cameras. This gives a good idea of what is going on without actually physically encountering. however tigers don't have passports and maps and a population may not be confined to a particular park, rather to a suitable eco-system....this can extend beyond both park or country - especially in the WFC regions. this is also why the Mae Wong Dam is so damaging - conservationists like to see "buffer zones" around areas where tigers breed - this further protects them from the interference of humans.

The problem with small populations is if they are isolated. A major problem is fragmentation of habitat....it is the aim of conservators to link tiger populations with corridors - it is hoped these will become international and allow a better genetic interchange.

(it has been known for some time that there was a tiger population in Eastern Thailand - in fact I'm wondering why this item has appeared just now - there may be a political motivation behind it.)

if the gene-pool is too small then the moving of one or two males from a distant genetically remote pool could help the situation - or even A.I. -  one doesn't need to remove the entire group. We also don't know the history of this population - where they came from and how they are linked, if at all to other groups.

 

The overall tiger population of Thailand is estimated at somewhere over 200 but it is also estimated that Thailand has enough potential space to accommodation a tiger population of approaching 2000 (thousand!). Poaching encroachment - in all its forms and general conflict with humans is preventing that at the moment.

 

As I said this is just a baby step and it will come to nothing if the government continues to shown continuing disregard for the tigers and their environment.

 

[Ocicat]

Brakes failed while swerving to miss tiger.

[Notadoctor]

8 minutes ago, Ocicat said:

Brakes failed while swerving to miss tiger.

Can you explain?

[Notadoctor]

16 hours ago, Usual Suspect said:

We all know the level of 'protection' that park rangers give.. Lucky these tigers are not in Kaeng Krachan N,P.

(These 18 tigers have been safe..now the Chinese will be scrambling over each other to get them).

There are of course tigers in Kaeng Krachan. The quality of rangers is quite high, but the salaries paid are apparently pitiful. This can only lead to one thing a susceptibility to bribery. who pays the bribes - the rich and influential - those wanting tiger carcasses, cubs and those who think they are entitled to go hunting. only those with money ca bribe.

 

 

[tukkytuktuk]

Tiger skins openly on sale at a retail outlet in Mong La, Burma, June 2010. Black markets along Myanmar, Thailand and China's shared borders play a crucial role facilitating the deadly illicit trade in tigers and other endangered species, say Traffic and WWF.

 

How long until these tigers are poached for their skin?

[tukkytuktuk]

13 hours ago, geisha said:

I Went to Fantasia in Kamala  Phuket years back, and they had a majestic white tiger, huuuge, in a glass cage,the poor animal just walked round and round his glass prison, it made me cry. Anyone know if he's still there ? So much animal abuse  !

 

 

[Notadoctor]

Thai forests go to considerable lengths to avoid humans. This is in contrast to Bangladesh where the evidence suggests tigers view humans as prey. - Not true - attacks on humans ae largely down to "encroachment"-( tigers avoid humans too close) and do not regard them as prey at all....only in extreme circumstances - eg an ill or old  tiger close to human habitation does this ever occur. It is of course not an issue and has nothing to do with conservation of the environments where tigers can survive.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Notadoctor

[Notadoctor]

3 hours ago, tukkytuktuk said:

Tiger skins openly on sale at a retail outlet in Mong La, Burma, June 2010. Black markets along Myanmar, Thailand and China's shared borders play a crucial role facilitating the deadly illicit trade in tigers and other endangered species, say Traffic and WWF.

 

How long until these tigers are poached for their skin?

Why have you missed out Laos - the golden triangle is a booming centre for endangered animal trading. where does Thailand border China?

[Briggsy]

27 minutes ago, Notadoctor said:

Thai forests go to considerable lengths to avoid humans. This is in contrast to Bangladesh where the evidence suggests tigers view humans as prey. - Not true - attacks on humans ae largely down to "encroachment"-( tigers avoid humans too close) and do not regard them as prey at all....only in extreme circumstances - eg an ill or old  tiger close to human habitation does this ever occur. It is of course not an issue and has nothing to do with conservation of the environments where tigers can survive.

 

Hundreds of references of tigers in the Sundarbans stalking and attacking humans (yes they are often honey-collectors and fishermen entering the National Park). It is theorised that this behaviour points to tigers "learning" that humans are prey.

 

Contrast that with GPS tracked tigers in Thailand Western ranges who avoid human habitation even when the habitation has been abandoned for years. This is the accepted "normal" tiger behaviour.

 

Simply to dismiss my statement as not true is flying in the face of reported facts

[moe666]

In the end it boils down to how many tigers this area can support.

[Notadoctor]

as said there is potentially room for up to 200 tigers in Thailand. it is diown to the willingness of the authorities to pay for the protection of the nation's environment. So long as corruption rules and enforcement is interfered with then the tigers are in peril.

There IS space but these environments need stabilising and then the connecting links need to be established. This isn't just a matter for Thailand it is an international affair.

 

It makes me wonder why this "discovery" which is not recent should receive all this publicity just now. Thailand is at present being monitored by CITES with reference to their actions regarding the ivory trade and the trade in endangered species in general - one can't help but think that this is an image building operation to stave off the threat of sanctions by CITES which could cost Thailand trillions of baht.

19 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Hundreds of references of tigers in the Sundarbans stalking and attacking humans (yes they are often honey-collectors and fishermen entering the National Park). It is theorised that this behaviour points to tigers "learning" that humans are prey.

 

Contrast that with GPS tracked tigers in Thailand Western ranges who avoid human habitation even when the habitation has been abandoned for years. This is the accepted "normal" tiger behaviour.

 

Simply to dismiss my statement as not true is flying in the face of reported facts

Man eating tigers are as old as the hills - and the behaviour is "learned" usually by tigers that have territorial of health problems.....this is nothing new - in areas where humans are close to tigers this occasionally happens.

""Tigers that come into conflict with people are more likely sub-adults [a tiger that has passed through the juvenile period but not yet attained typical adult characteristics] trying to find new territories, and among old, injured animals that are evicted from their home territories," Dr Karanth - India.

tigers are fussy eaters - that's how populations can been accurately estimated by looking at availability of prey and although a young tiger without territory may find a herdsman easy picking this does not actually qualify as a "man eater" as they may reject the prey and avoid humans in future.

i think however you need to review your perspective of this and look at the statistics. most stories are anecdotal or apocryphal or just regurgitation of a previous event....there is also the parallel problem in India of Leopards. the phrase "man eating tiger" of course makes good newspaper sales etc.... as you seem to be barking up the wrong tree...I'm not even sure what your conclusion is - what are you actually suggesting are the results and what should be done?

Edited March 31, 2017 by Notadoctor

[gdgbb]

On 30/03/2017 at 9:38 AM, Notadoctor said:

The population size for he area is probably quite accurate.

 

What?  Nowhere does it say that 18 is the population size!

[Notadoctor]

13 hours ago, gdgbb said:

What?  Nowhere does it say that 18 is the population size!

I explained the methodology which would suggest they know the population size for that area quite accurately - whether that is the figure or not is up to them.

[gdgbb]

3 hours ago, Notadoctor said:

I explained the methodology which would suggest they know the population size for that area quite accurately - whether that is the figure or not is up to them.

Methodology?  Is that the same as "method"?

[Notadoctor]

11 hours ago, gdgbb said:

Methodology?  Is that the same as "method"?

no - it's a system of methods pertaining to a particular field of study. I outlined some of them above.

[gdgbb]

4 hours ago, Notadoctor said:

no - it's a system of methods pertaining to a particular field of study.

Ahh, ok, 'methods' is what you meant, now I understand, thanks.

[Airbagwill]

This no reason to rest on out laurels

 

The depth of ignorance and indifference on conservation issues is clearly demonstrated on this thread...

 

The tigers are by no means safe...

 

Normal prey for a tiger is wild boar and deer.
Tigers ambush prey often while it is drinking.
For this reason Tiger habitat needs plenty of streams running through it to attract prey.
Lakes are no good as the tiger then ends up wrestling prey in deep water.

It is welcome news that these tigers are actually BREEDING in this area, but one has to wonder if the gene pool is large enough. It is one of the main aims of tiger conservationists to link various tiger habitats as this will enable “interchange” between populations...I suspect this might be the case here.

Thailand has had small successes in preserving its tiger population in the last couple of years and those involved need to be recognised for the tireless work they have put in........but it is hard to give any credit to the government who basically are basking in this reflected glory without having contributed to it in any way...in fact their policies would indicate a deplorable depth of ignorance and indifference to the situation.

If Thailand is not to preside over the extinction of this apex predator, there needs to be a massive change in attitude by the authorities.
One case in point is the “pointless” government obsession with building a dam at Mae Wong........this dam which was first proposed and rejected in the 1980s, has no real irrigation or flood control benefits borders on the main tiger conservation area in Thailand Huay Kha Khaeng........if they resulting lake will affect both tigers and their prey and reduce the buffer zone between tigers and human encroachment - the result could devastate the tiger population.
...and the government spokesman’s comment?  - Gen Chatchai Sarikulya, Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives has proposed using article 44 to start construction and  believes that “ tigers have legs to run away from the water.”