Scottish Parliament backs independence referendum call

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Their policies are not some SNP-only secret - go to their website and read for yourself.

Get a hold of the whitepaper that they published in 2014. Probably some is due for an update, if they haven't done so already, but much will remain valid.

 

But all this obsessing over the SNP, trying to turn the debate into a personality contest, is very tiresome. I can remember an SNP slogan from the 70s or 80s that went "Vote for us and we'll resign".

There is no reason to suppose that the SNP will be the future of an independent Scotland, any more than there was a reason to suppose Farage was going to lead the UK to the promised land. In fact, there is no reason to suppose that the SNP will remain a cohesive party once independence is achieved.

 

So, excuse my persistence, as you clearly already know. Can you help me with just a couple of questions:

 

What currency will Scotland use after seceding from the UK?

How will the new Scottish government reduce the debt to the level necessary for EU membership?

Will Scotland apply to join NATO? 

Will there be an election in Scotland to elect a government or will the SNP simply take control until the next election is due, 2021 I believe?

 

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

She's trying everything to get center stage, look really relevant, and be involved in things above and beyond her responsibilities. 

 

She has shown herself to be indiscreet and somewhat economical with the truth, even lying on occasion. 

 

No sane person would trust her to be part of a team negotiating Brexit when her independence agenda, her prime agenda, would benefit by a the worst possible Brexit terms. Who would trust her not to be giving information to the EU in the hope of securing special considerations for Scotland. 

I would suggest that it is not the interests of an independent Scotland for it's neighbour to have a bad Brexit deal - quite the opposite, in fact. Why then, would the SNP try to scupper whatever deal was reached?

 

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Scotland, like all the home nations has a say through it's parliamentary representation. The Scottish parliament, like assemblies and councils are free to comment but not part of the process. 

 

Excellent point - as a nation with only 10% of the population of our patners, we are obliged to follow the path they choose, even though we firmly reject it. If we were a vassal state, then that would be unarguable, but if we are an equal partner in the union, then each party to that union should have an equal say. The only solution to the conundrum is the dissolve the partnership.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

So, excuse my persistence, as you clearly already know. Can you help me with just a couple of questions:

 

1) What currency will Scotland use after seceding from the UK?

2) How will the new Scottish government reduce the debt to the level necessary for EU membership?

3) Will Scotland apply to join NATO? 

4) Will there be an election in Scotland to elect a government or will the SNP simply take control until the next election is due, 2021 I believe?

 

Excuse my impertinence, but I have added numbers to your points to aid clarity.

 

1) The Scottish Government has commissioned a panel to investigate all currency options. This panel is currently still working, with a report expected to be issued, I believe, in August.

2) Firstly, the debt needs to be calculated correctly. As most of the data used to estimate the 'debt' is collected at UK level and not attributable to the regions, even the experts point out that the supposed debt figure attributed to Scotland is hugely questionable. I posted a very good article last week from a non-partisan English tax specialist pointing this fact out. If you like, I can repost it.

3) I assume so - as I said, it is possible that the SNP will not be in power in a new government.

4) If there is a referendum in 2019, then independence will take a couple of years to achieve. My expectation is that, in those 2 years,  there would be some unity coalition created to work towards independence, then the elections to be held shortly after independence becomes a reality.

[Baerboxer]

22 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I would suggest that it is not the interests of an independent Scotland for it's neighbour to have a bad Brexit deal - quite the opposite, in fact. Why then, would the SNP try to scupper whatever deal was reached?

 

 

Excellent point - as a nation with only 10% of the population of our patners, we are obliged to follow the path they choose, even though we firmly reject it. If we were a vassal state, then that would be unarguable, but if we are an equal partner in the union, then each party to that union should have an equal say. The only solution to the conundrum is the dissolve the partnership.

 

Point one - the SNP are driven by the desire for independence and have linked that with a desire to be a EU member state should they succeed in the former. As they are opposed to the UK they cannot be part of any important negotiations on its behalf as there is a very clear conflict of interests.

 

Point two - you illustrate the difference in thinking between Scottish nationalists (not all of whom support the SNP) and Unionists. Scotland, like England, Wales and Ulster are part of the UK. The country is the UK and are nationality is British. The British government is in Westminster. Devolution of power, to more local, regional, governments/assemblies/councils whatever you prefer to call them is good. But, that doesn't change the nationality of the people or the country. Nationalists want to create their own sovereign country based on historical differences. Rather than dissolving the partnership, especially as the whim of one partner regardless of the other three, then perhaps a solution would be to insist each level of governance acted in accordance within its boundaries of responsibilities.

 

[Baerboxer]

25 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Excuse my impertinence, but I have added numbers to your points to aid clarity.

 

1) The Scottish Government has commissioned a panel to investigate all currency options. This panel is currently still working, with a report expected to be issued, I believe, in August.

2) Firstly, the debt needs to be calculated correctly. As most of the data used to estimate the 'debt' is collected at UK level and not attributable to the regions, even the experts point out that the supposed debt figure attributed to Scotland is hugely questionable. I posted a very good article last week from a non-partisan English tax specialist pointing this fact out. If you like, I can repost it.

3) I assume so - as I said, it is possible that the SNP will not be in power in a new government.

4) If there is a referendum in 2019, then independence will take a couple of years to achieve. My expectation is that, in those 2 years,  there would be some unity coalition created to work towards independence, then the elections to be held shortly after independence becomes a reality.

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

1. In 2014 had the SNP got the result they wanted they presumably had no answer to the currency question? Otherwise they would have that answer available rather than still working on it. 

2. Agreed. Just as any number plucked from thin air by the EU/EC for Brexit cost to the UK needs to be corroborated so would the Scottish deficit. Although to be fair, Sturgeon doesn't challenge that number as being hugely inaccurate. Yes, please do repost the article you mention.

3&4. Interesting to see how that pans out should it ever happen. Head of state would be President? A political process like Westminster with similar election procedures or a more federal approach like Germany and the US? 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't think I made any claims about our economic potential other than trying to convey the fact that we are very far from lagging the UK in terms of output, and that we are not a one-trick pony.

 

Maybe, in reply, you can explain to me what is unique about Scotland that means that it would be unable to maintain a viable economy? Why, for example, can similar sized countries such as Norway, Finland, Denmark New Zealand etc, function as successful, developed countries, but Scots are doomed to fail in their attempt?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a seperated Scotland would be doomed.

What people are saying is that the economy of a seperated Scotland, would be severely hit,and if that is what you, and like minded Scots think is acceptable,then so be it. However what I'm trying to point out to you is that the SNP is not being completely truthful,in there assessment as to the future prosperity of Scotland,should it vote for the SNP's demands.

Edited March 30, 2017 by nontabury

[RuamRudy]

54 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a seperated Scotland would be doomed.

What people are saying is that the economy of a seperated Scotland, would be severely hit,and if that is what you, and like minded Scots think is acceptable,then so be it. However what I'm trying to point out to you is that the SNP is not being completely truthful,in there assessment as to the future prosperity of Scotland,should it vote for the SNP's demands.

 

But you have no absolutely evidence to make the claim of a Scottish economy being severely hit. All the Brexit claims of fearmongering can be laid at the door of any such suggestion.

 

You should also add to your chart the fact that Scotland imports more from England than it exports to it - therefore it is every bit as important to England that trade relations with Scotland remain healthy.

Edited March 30, 2017 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

58 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Point two - you illustrate the difference in thinking between Scottish nationalists (not all of whom support the SNP) and Unionists. Scotland, like England, Wales and Ulster are part of the UK. The country is the UK and are nationality is British. The British government is in Westminster. Devolution of power, to more local, regional, governments/assemblies/councils whatever you prefer to call them is good. But, that doesn't change the nationality of the people or the country. Nationalists want to create their own sovereign country based on historical differences. Rather than dissolving the partnership, especially as the whim of one partner regardless of the other three, then perhaps a solution would be to insist each level of governance acted in accordance within its boundaries of responsibilities.

But there are fundamental ideological differences that can be seen simply by looking at our Westminster representatives. Of course we cannot claim to be a homogenous bloc, but Scots in general subscribe to a Nordic model of capitalism that simply hasn't captured the imagination south of the border. Devolution of power to date hasn't allowed that model to be pursued to any meaningful level, leading to the schism in political scene between north and south, and the feeling that our objectives can never be met as long as our significantly larger neighbour does not share our views.

 

As far as I am aware, the intent of the SNP is not to dissolve the union agreement between the other 3 parties, but rather to remove ourselves from that union. How it continues without us is not our business.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Thank you for your answers.

 

1. In 2014 had the SNP got the result they wanted they presumably had no answer to the currency question? Otherwise they would have that answer available rather than still working on it. 

2. Agreed. Just as any number plucked from thin air by the EU/EC for Brexit cost to the UK needs to be corroborated so would the Scottish deficit. Although to be fair, Sturgeon doesn't challenge that number as being hugely inaccurate. Yes, please do repost the article you mention.

3&4. Interesting to see how that pans out should it ever happen. Head of state would be President? A political process like Westminster with similar election procedures or a more federal approach like Germany and the US? 

 

1) A major weakness in the 2014 case was the currency question. I am sure that NS realises that they cannot show such weakness again.

2) The article can be found here. He links to a previous posting that gives further background - also worth reading.

3/4) I am sure that there are some republicans within the SNP fold, but they are not prominent. The head of state will remain the Queen, much as she is the head of state for many other countries.

Holyrood has a single chamber rather than 2 houses, so much of the work of governance is done by cross-party committee. Also, they use Alternative Member System, with regional and list members. I believe that this is the system of PR proposed by the Lib Dems a couple of years back when pushing for UK voting reform.

[nontabury]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But you have no absolutely evidence to make the claim of a Scottish economy being severely hit. All the Brexit claims of fearmongering can be laid at the door of any such suggestion.

 

You should also add to your chart the fact that Scotland imports more from England than it exports to it - therefore it is every bit as important to England that trade relations with Scotland remain healthy.

As I've pointed out to you previously,even the economic advisors to the SNP have stated that a seperated Scotland would have many serious problems, and that was even before the collapse in the price of oil. But I'm sure you will gloss over these facts.

[RuamRudy]

53 minutes ago, nontabury said:

As I've pointed out to you previously,even the economic advisors to the SNP have stated that a seperated Scotland would have many serious problems, and that was even before the collapse in the price of oil. But I'm sure you will gloss over these facts.

Facts? What facts? There are no reliable data for you to make these claims - they are just schedenfreude hopes that inexplicably reside in many Yoons' heads.

 

The economic mismanagement of repeated Westminster governments has precipitated the dire straits our country is in now, and has been in for some time. Nobody is suggesting that an independent Scotland would instantly become a land of plenty, but we are already shackeled to an ideology that is dragging us ever lower. Conservatism works for a relatively short length of time, and predominantly favours the rich. But it is no long term solution for the masses. Time to break free - they UK as a whole is incapable of creating and maintaining a credible opposition. Sorry, England, but as the largest partner by far, it is your responsibilty to create and maintain that opposition - and you have failed. Time to walk away.

[evadgib]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/180642?reveal_response=yes#response-threshold