Testosterone Therapy for Weight Loss

[dontoearth]

A lot of posters in this forum have commented on using testosterone for weight loss and improvements in gym performance.  I thought everyone might want to read this article on a drug company website advocating and making recommendations for prescription testosterone as part of weight loss therapy.  

https://www.nebido.com/aace-and-ace-clinical-practice-guidelines-on-obesity-call-for-testosterone-testing-and-treatment

I will comment on my own experiences later.  I just took nebido last saturday.  The full dose.  It is good for 10 weeks.  I had used Androgel for the last 3 months and the test I got here showed it did not work at all!  I will put my test results in later.

 

 

[A1Str8]

Androgel and other funny creatures are useless that's why it didn't work. 

The proper way to use it is in injectable form. It's backed by science that testosterone in the right amount increases muscle mass and significantly reduces fat. 

[tropo]

Nebido will work, but it's a poor substitute for more frequent injections. It's really designed for guys who are scared of needles. Have a weekly testosterone test done and you will see it dropping significantly from week to week. It's also very expensive, which makes it a good idea for the clinic, but not so much for the customer.

 

If you really want to see more stable testosterone levels, man up and inject weekly (at least).

[dontoearth]

2 hours ago, tropo said:

Nebido will work, but it's a poor substitute for more frequent injections. It's really designed for guys who are scared of needles. Have a weekly testosterone test done and you will see it dropping significantly from week to week. It's also very expensive, which makes it a good idea for the clinic, but not so much for the customer.

 

If you really want to see more stable testosterone levels, man up and inject weekly (at least).

  You are a 100% right but unfortunately, I am a bleeder!  A really bad bleeder.  My attempt to inject at home left a mess that looked like there had been a Hitchcock style murder in my bathroom.  I tried it a few more times having towels ready to clean and ended up bruising my hip.   And found lots of the oil running down my leg.  Expensive painful waste for me.  Also,  when I return to the states it is completely illegal!  We don't have testosterone injection as a treatment for low T.  I think they do give it to MTF transgender.   All the docs happily hand out that goo jel in a packet that doesn't work on my body.  So Nebeido solves my problem and I will get one extra shot before I head home for summer.  My friends did comment that the hospitals and cheaper clinics are quite friendly here to testosterone shots since I used the most expensive one (but excellent) Voskran.

[dontoearth]

       I promised to write up some of the results from my testosterone replacement therapy.  Just for background I started a serious diet and exercise program with a trainer.  I lost 13.5 kilos between june 4- sept 30.  And then NOTHING!  I continued the program until Nov. 17.  I was prepared for a plateau.  I went home to the states.  I kept the weight off even with the EATING holidays in Nov. and Dec. and Jan.  I saw my doctor in December.  I knew I was low on testosterone.  I felt like crap.  And I had personality problems.  Call it cranky old man syndrome.  My energy was making me move from bed to couch and out for takeout.  

testosterone total 379 ng/dl     reference range 250-1100.   4/13 2016

testosterone total 180 ng/dl     reference range 250-1100.   december 29th 2016

So my testosterone had dropped below the scale for measurement.  I am not sure when, I have this suspicion it was exactly at the plateau period.

     We are at sort of at a blind spot in the road.  Almost all responsible scientist know weight loss and muscle gain can often stop in an individual.  They attribute this to nonsense like not enough diet and exercise.  I knew I was definitely doing both to the max.  Some now think for older individuals it may be a lack of hormones.  My doctor prescribed Androgel.  I smeared it on faithful from December 29th to about 2 weeks ago.  I still felt shit.  And my return to bodybuilding and dieting full-time starting on Feb 10 of this year had brought me thru 7 weeks of ever more intense body building and dieting too ZERO results.  

      I went to Voskran Clinic which does hormone replacement and bodybuilding protocols.  It is pricey.  I mean really as expensive as USA medicine.  However, they can do things here that they can not do in the USA.

     They did a full hormone panel.  My testosterone had not gone up at all from Androgel.  I was still below the measurement ranges.  

testosterone 1.095 ng/ml          reference range 1.424 -9.231

      The doctor put me on full hormone replacement for a 10 week program.  I did a 1,000mcg shot of Neibedo.  This is not for the faint of heart!  The shot takes 2 and a half minutes with a 4" needle and feels like someone poked a hot roofing nail into your butt check and then turned it endlessly.  If you do this be prepared for some long teeth clenching!  The doctor also prescribed HGH injections, and DHEA and Melatonin and Cortisol.  And here in Thailand he can inject you with Primabolan.  I am doing that once a week. I have done this protocol before other than Cortisol and primabolan.  It does seem to eat the fat off your body like acid.  Evidently I eliminated enough stress with retirement that I fall below the measurement levels on Cortisol.  Amazing eh?.  

       I will give some update after the program has had some time to take effect.  I know a lot of older guys here already do T-replacement and some are considering it so I hope this bit of information is helpful.
 

[Ramen087]

Definitely looking forward to an update. Thanks for the detailed post. Good luck.

[xerostar]

Quote:

[The shot takes 2 and a half minutes with a 4" needle and feels like someone poked a hot roofing nail into your butt check and then turned it endlessly.  If you do this be prepared for some long teeth clenching!] Unquote

 

To me this sounds like an amateur doing the injection !?

It can be done quickly and painlessly. The only proviso is that once the needle is in situ, you just withdraw the plunger slightly. If a lot of blood is drawn up, it means the needle is in a blood vessel, so the needle can be withdrawn slightly and re-positioned. 

I have been injecting my butt cheek for a few years and never had a problem.

Being a bleeder however must make it more complicated.

 

I've had a painful experience from amateurs taking blood from my arm where they try to re-position the needle to find a vessel and generally take too long over the procedure.

[dontoearth]

14 hours ago, xerostar said:

Quote:

[The shot takes 2 and a half minutes with a 4" needle and feels like someone poked a hot roofing nail into your butt check and then turned it endlessly.  If you do this be prepared for some long teeth clenching!] Unquote

 

To me this sounds like an amateur doing the injection !?

It can be done quickly and painlessly. The only proviso is that once the needle is in situ, you just withdraw the plunger slightly. If a lot of blood is drawn up, it means the needle is in a blood vessel, so the needle can be withdrawn slightly and re-positioned. 

I have been injecting my butt cheek for a few years and never had a problem.

Being a bleeder however must make it more complicated.

 

I've had a painful experience from amateurs taking blood from my arm where they try to re-position the needle to find a vessel and generally take too long over the procedure.

The information on the shot taking 2 and half minutes and the use of a 4" needle is directly from Bayer Pharmaceuticals information sheet on the web.  That warning sheet does explain the hot burning pain sensations you might experience.  I used my own editorial license about the heated roofing nail they didn't go that far!   Nebedio is 1,000 mcg's of time released testosterone good for 10 weeks.   This would be 5-10 times the volume amount that someone would inject at home once a week. 

The injection was done by a registered nurse in a high quality clinic.   My assessment is that she did an EXCELLENT job as I did not bleed at all afterwards!  She did not need to dab or use a band aid.  The pain disappeared in 24 hours and I had no bruises.   I did not find any of the oil leaking when I showered that night.  That is the best I can expect.  I did a quick google on Nebeido and evidently lots of people who have had testosterone injected before are shocked by the amount of pain from this shot.  It may be a barrier to using this product.  I did see in some countries they have 250 mcg for 2.5 weeks of treatment.  I have no idea if those shots are done with a smaller needle and take less time.  I would prefer to get it over with ASAP and be done for awhile. 

[xerostar]

My shots are Sustanon 250 and good for 3 weeks. The injection is quick and not painful.

I think I will be avoiding the one you describe ..

 

[dontoearth]

A little more info from me:

       I definitely choose this route (Neibedo) because Androgel FAILED TO WORK AT ALL.   It is almost impossible in the USA to get injectable testosterone.  Whether you want to do it yourself or go to a doctor.  Neibedo is not legal in the USA.    However, one shot for a 10 week dose would work for me if I just took the usual 1 or 2 day Mexican vacation like many other test users.  I live in Chicago not southern California so I can't slide down there once a week. 

       My goal was to find out why I have been in a LONG plateau.  I had rapid weight loss and muscle gain from June 2016 thru Sept 2016.  I dropped about 30 lbs.  I really shaped up.  My test measurement at that time was just under 500 according to my last medical check-up.     Then no matter how much  more dieting and exercise nothing happened.  I had measurements done 12-29-2016 and found out I was below the measureable scale on test and hgh and a few other hormones.  I started Androgel.  10 weeks later a new measurement showed no change in test.   BTW.  My doctor didn't want to do another test measurement since he had one from last year.  We get lots of weird advice in the USA and YES I have a near Cadillac healthcare plan.  I told him to do it anyway.  The results showed a drop below the measureable scale. 

      I will get measurements and update my weight loss and muscle building program probably the 3rd week of May. 

      If my problem with the plateau was a shortage of hormones then this treatment was great.  If the plateau will not break then on to the next idea!

[dontoearth]

2 minutes ago, xerostar said:

My shots are Sustanon 250 and good for 3 weeks. The injection is quick and not painful.

I think I will be avoiding the one you describe ..

 

    Good product.  2 decades ago we could get a shot directly from the doctor or buy a take home kit in the USA.  Our government doesn't allow any of that anymore.  I used to go for a weekly shot of 100 mcg. at a doctors office.  Never felt better in my life.  Unfortunately, his practice was closed by the state medical board.  No need for a long winded post but the health care system in the USA SUCKS.  And yes I have the very best insurance.  Our problems go way beyond the health insurance the pols are fighting over in the USA.

[tropo]

6 hours ago, xerostar said:

My shots are Sustanon 250 and good for 3 weeks. The injection is quick and not painful.

I think I will be avoiding the one you describe ..

 

 

Sustanon 250 is not really good for 3 weeks. You won't have stable levels over 3 weeks.

 

It's easy to test... have your testosterone levels checked at the end of each week to see how they drop.

 

 

[xerostar]

Thanks for that Tropo.

My GP here in Oz doesn't seem to know much about it.

He sent me for tests on testosterone.

My research tells me that there is a lot more to it than that. 

I tried to get him to prescribe oestrogen blockers but he wasn't interested.

I think that's my problem my liver wants me to be a girl with tits and all Ha Ha.

So do you do the  1,000mcg shot of Neibedo or do you use some other method. 

[LburtonL]

what are the costof those ?

[tropo]

11 hours ago, xerostar said:

Thanks for that Tropo.

My GP here in Oz doesn't seem to know much about it.

He sent me for tests on testosterone.

My research tells me that there is a lot more to it than that. 

I tried to get him to prescribe oestrogen blockers but he wasn't interested.

I think that's my problem my liver wants me to be a girl with tits and all Ha Ha.

So do you do the  1,000mcg shot of Neibedo or do you use some other method. 

 

 

 

 

I didn't want to say too much as sometimes telling the truth on here gets people upset.

 

Here's goes anyway:

 

Testosterone Depot (enanthate) and Sustanon are often recommended at 3-weekly intervals. I think you'll find that on the manufacturer's leaflets too. In reality, this is not often enough to keep the levels where you want them to be. I think it is a selling point (more like bs) to people who don't feel comfortable with more frequent injections. In reality, it will give you nice levels for up to 10 days, and then they rapidly decline, so you'll feel great for awhile, and then not so good again until your next 3-weekly injection. I've never done the 3-weekly thing, so I don't have personal data to show you, but before you change your protocol it wouldn't hurt to do 3 tests, at 7, 14 and 21 days to see just where you are. At the same time, it would be useful to see what your estradiol (E2) levels are too. You don't need an anti-estrogen or blockers if your estradiol (E2) levels are normal. Taking more frequent injections could mean you need to start using them though, so it's not all smooth sailing.

 

The tests are cheap in Thailand, at 500 - 600 each, and you can have them done whenever you want. 

 

If you have problems with man-boobs, then definitely you need to check your levels.

 

I know Nebido is popular with Australians who travel out and back to Thailand often as it's convenient to get the shots in Thailand and saves the drama of trying to get supplemental testosterone in Australia. It looks like they are going the same direction as the USA regarding testosterone injections. Most people I know find a source in Australia and DIY... nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

 

Personally, I'm for small injections (100 - 150mg) done frequently to keep the levels stable and slow down aromatization. This resembles natural levels more closely than big shots less frequently. The ultimate way is to try to keep your levels in the mid to high normal range all week long. Of course, that's going to require some tweaking and quite a few tests. That's what the doctors in Oz should be doing, but they're obviously not too bothered about it. You may have to go to a specialist clinic in Oz, but that won't be cheap.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by tropo

[dontoearth]

On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:57 PM, LburtonL said:

what are the costof those ?

    I bought a full hormone and bodybuilding package.   I went to a specialty clinic that does this work.   Voskran.    I have spent around 2K USA money. 

    It included a full endrocrinology panel.  All the hormones and many of the blood markers were sent out to the lab.  Get a PSA test guys!  U don't want to stimulate prostrate cancer in your body with this protocol!  I will dig up the full sheet of exams at some point.  It is important not to look at TEST injection AS A DO ALL SAVIOR.   If you have low thyroid or some precursor hormones missing more test is like pumping 5 more gallons of fuel into a car with a full gas tank.  Nothing more happens.   There was a full 45 minute consultation with the doctor.  I did learn some new things.  No grain products or insulin stimulating products at breakfast it decreases the absorption of testosterone you produce overnight.  I gave up grains and juices a long while back.  He had the usual advice to diet and exercise.  He preferred organic food saying he thinks drops in testosterone world-wide might be due to pesticides and fertilizer absorption.  He said to eat dates which are the highest source of a mineral that helps stimulate testosterone in the body.   I had heard this on a webcast before. 

      He then recommended HGH (human growth hormone),  mine is too low to measure, DHEA mine needs to be boosted a few 100 points.  Melatonin to get the 8 hours of rest.  Nebedio to boost test and Cortisol (strangely u need a balance of this and finally with rest relaxation and retirement I went to low on the scale)  and I get a weekly shot of Primobolan since I am on weekly body building program with a trainer.

     This package was expensive!  I paid almost 550 USD for the test.  They probably run 900 dollars in the USA if you can find a doctor that does this work which is impossible.  The testosterone and HGH and primobolan are all legit.   They are in the original marked unopened packages.  The fact that the clinic has an international reputation and does this work as one of its specialties is about as far as you can go with verifying authenticity.   It is not a scam clinic offering ur HGH pills and powder (proven to be NOTHING) or TESTO supplements made out of yams...etc...

      All the medications for 10 weeks hit about 1500 USD. 

      So this costs about 2K USA money. 

      My estimate would be that if you are RICH in the USA you might be able to get this package for 7K-25K.   The government has made it harder than hell for doctors wanting to use this protocol so the remaining guys are charging a combat premium so to speak.

      I would be very unwilling to just pop into a Pattya pharmacy and buy some crap and inject myself without a doctor's supervision.  Call me old-fashioned!  Call me wanting to avoid prostrate cancer, Call me a nervous nelly that wants to take advantage of every piece of science available to me. 

       Once again if you will review my original link to Bayer's Neibedo product it is being marketed now as way to decrease male beer guts.  I don't drink and my gut had reduced itself before this treatment.  I am working on the rolls of fat at the backside of my body. Champion love handles!  I am also working on decreasing the fat mass and increasing the muscles.  Trying to beat a VERY HIGH rating of visceral fat.

       My health club has a tanita scale which does a full body composition analyzer software.  It does a 4 point electrical impedance measurement thru the body.  No you can't feel it.  The product manual on the internet says it is within +-.05 of the hard to find dexa scan equipment.  This is good enough for me.  It's free with my membership.  I have measurements from the beginning of my workout and will do one last one in late may and do a wrap up on what I have learned.

       We will see.

[Ramen087]

Tropo, could you address the use of HcG in addition to doing an injectable testosterone  routine?  Thanks for the information provided earlier in the thread...excellent intelligence for us contemplating TRT.

[moe666]

On 4/6/2017 at 3:13 PM, xerostar said:

Thanks for that Tropo.

My GP here in Oz doesn't seem to know much about it.

He sent me for tests on testosterone.

My research tells me that there is a lot more to it than that. 

I tried to get him to prescribe oestrogen blockers but he wasn't interested.

I think that's my problem my liver wants me to be a girl with tits and all Ha Ha.

So do you do the  1,000mcg shot of Neibedo or do you use some other method. 

Take zinc to block estrogen, preferable liquid zinc, one can have a problem absorbing zinc tablet

[moe666]

The op says androgel failed to work, I smeared it on. Maybe you didn't apply it correctly, I use a cream I buy in the states I was advised to apply on the biceps and triceps rubbing until surface became dry. Could be you smeared it on and it never was absorbed.

[moe666]

OP how is your thyroid it could be low, and do not except the low normal from a DR. the range is so broad low normal could be killing you.

[dontoearth]

2 hours ago, moe666 said:

The op says androgel failed to work, I smeared it on. Maybe you didn't apply it correctly, I use a cream I buy in the states I was advised to apply on the biceps and triceps rubbing until surface became dry. Could be you smeared it on and it never was absorbed.

      Thanks I was curious as why it didn't work.   I reviewed using Androgel on the site and I did administer it properly.  Most people are under the mistaken belief that all drugs work all the time for everyone perfectly.   I looked this up directly on the Androgel site over in the prescribing info for medical professionals this is  the results and data from the first clinical trial the company conducted.  It said,"

Key findings included:

• 82% of men were within the average normal serum testosterone range on Day 112"
•     So if you round a little it works 80% of the time meaning that almost 20%  are getting nothing from the medication.  This would mean 1 in 5 men will not get any effect from Androgel. 
•      Since this was the companies clinical trial to get the drug approved I am sure all participants were carefully instructed and perhaps even supervised the first few administrations of the gel.
•       If you Google it there are a lot of cranky crabby old men who couldn't get this gel to work. 
•       Basically you just go on to the next thing you can try once you are sure that there is no further use working with Androgel.
•  
•      

[robblok]

Tropo is giving excellent advice, more frequent injects are better I do a weekly inject of test E. 

 

The whole reason they advertise stuff for 3 weeks is because people are afraid of needles. Believe me after a few injects it will go a lot better.

 

I had help from a friend at first now I have no problem of doing it now.

 

I use an 18G needle to suck the liquid and later an 23 G needle 1 inch long to inject in my leg. I inject test E.

[tropo]

22 hours ago, Ramen087 said:

Tropo, could you address the use of HcG in addition to doing an injectable testosterone  routine?  Thanks for the information provided earlier in the thread...excellent intelligence for us contemplating TRT.

 

 

Let's make this clear... I'm discussing TRT for people who are over the age of 50 and near 60. Their natural testosterone production is already low.

 

If you think you can improve your testosterone levels naturally, try that first because TRT is a one-way-street. Whatever low-level production you currently have will become much lower once you start supplementing with an exogenous source of the hormone.

 

hCG is a hormone which can help prevent the testes from shrinking. They are going to shrink when you supplement with testosterone - that's a certainly. You're basically taking them off-line and they no longer need to produce their own testosterone, causing atrophy. If you don't use it - you lose it sums it up well. If you're concerned with the size of your testes for cosmetic reasons, then, by all means, inject hCG... but the problem is that if you're doing TRT, then the problem will be permanent and you'll need to keep injecting hCG to maintain testes size... and also, it's difficult to find the real hormone as there's a lot of useless and/or fake hCG getting around - and even that's expensive.

 

It's more useful for young punters who cycle on and off short courses of anabolic steroids and want to maintain the size and function of their testes.

 

Once again, if you haven't already started TRT, think long and hard about it, and weigh up all the pros and cons first. If your testosterone levels are still reasonable, try natural methods first. Also, make sure that once you start you'll be able to find a regular source of the hormone because your own production levels will disappear quickly if you start TRT and if you're caught without it, you'll be worse off than before you started. You could find it impossible to get back to where you started if you've been on TRT for any length of time.

Edited April 11, 2017 by tropo

[tropo]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

Tropo is giving excellent advice, more frequent injects are better I do a weekly inject of test E. 

 

The whole reason they advertise stuff for 3 weeks is because people are afraid of needles. Believe me after a few injects it will go a lot better.

 

I had help from a friend at first now I have no problem of doing it now.

 

I use an 18G needle to suck the liquid and later an 23 G needle 1 inch long to inject in my leg. I inject test E.

 

LOL> that's still quite big. I use 25g. It's best to use the smallest gauge possible.  

[Ramen087]

Thanks for the response BM tropo.

 

 I am in my mid 50s and I am also eating well (zero processed food, no sweets, no soda etc.) with quality protein and fats from fish, chicken and plants.  I have no fear of carbs, but try to eat complex carbs with a low glycemic index in foods I can find.

I exercise with cardio at least 3 times per week for at least one hour per session with my heart rate @ 90% (or higher) of my max rate for at least fifty minutes. I also weight train four or five days per week; I am working on a simple program of increased resistance every week or 2 . I think that allows me to increase my T as naturally as possible. 

Availability of good quality product is not a concern in my current location, thankfully.

 

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with the members on the thread. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Ramen087

[robblok]

1 hour ago, tropo said:

LOL> that's still quite big. I use 25g. It's best to use the smallest gauge possible.  

 

Yes your right.. was always told 23g was the smallest might try 25 next time. 

[black fox]

i went to the testosterene replacment clinic in pattaya today the one on clang corner of 3rd road,they gave me a blood test and i have to go back later for the results i was charged 6000bht for blood test and it will be 9,500bht for i months injections (dont know yet what of) then for other treatment to check on me another 17000 bht so its not cheap, i dont know if i will have any more treatment until i see blood test results, ive never done anything like this before initially i just wanted to lose some fat so perhaps somebody like tropo could advise me, im 75 years old and apart from being overweight and a low libido i dont feel to bad.

[moe666]

23 minutes ago, black fox said:

i went to the testosterene replacment clinic in pattaya today the one on clang corner of 3rd road,they gave me a blood test and i have to go back later for the results i was charged 6000bht for blood test and it will be 9,500bht for i months injections (dont know yet what of) then for other treatment to check on me another 17000 bht so its not cheap, i dont know if i will have any more treatment until i see blood test results, ive never done anything like this before initially i just wanted to lose some fat so perhaps somebody like tropo could advise me, im 75 years old and apart from being overweight and a low libido i dont feel to bad.

Do yourself a favor google is your friend you can do a lot of research on the web about HRT unless you fell more comfortable with the clinic you can gain enough info from the web and a few of the posters here to treat yourself. Regular blood test is the most important tool you will have.

[tropo]

On 4/11/2017 at 9:06 AM, robblok said:

 

Yes your right.. was always told 23g was the smallest might try 25 next time. 

 

If you go to 25g, only use 1ml syringes. You won't press the oil out with a 5ml syringe, no matter how strong your grip LOL. I only use 25g. The less collateral damage the better.

[tropo]

10 hours ago, black fox said:

i went to the testosterene replacment clinic in pattaya today the one on clang corner of 3rd road,they gave me a blood test and i have to go back later for the results i was charged 6000bht for blood test and it will be 9,500bht for i months injections (dont know yet what of) then for other treatment to check on me another 17000 bht so its not cheap, i dont know if i will have any more treatment until i see blood test results, ive never done anything like this before initially i just wanted to lose some fat so perhaps somebody like tropo could advise me, im 75 years old and apart from being overweight and a low libido i dont feel to bad.

 

IMO all this money spent on testing is wasteful, and they make a huge profit... and it gives customers the impression they're really good.

 

At the end of the day, what will they give you besides some testosterone shots to boost you (costs me no more than 65 baht per week DIY), and perhaps some anti-estrogen drugs to control that if necessary?

 

I can help you out with some more info if you can list the tests they are giving you, and what they are supplementing you with. I would find that really interesting. Some blood tests such as free testosterone are quite expensive.