Taking a half-British, half-Thai child to the UK

[jimmybkk]

Hi All,

 

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere - if so please direct me to the correct thread assuming it is up to date.

 

I am planning on a trip to the UK with my Thai gf (not married) and our 9-year old. I didn't get round to getting a British passport for our child as yet, and since I would like to make the trip to the UK within the next 4-5 weeks I don't think there is time to get one now because the gov.uk website says I should allow for 6 weeks for a first-issue passport.

 

My original intention was to post here asking if anyone could offer advice on whether it would be possible to apply for a UK passport for my child whilst we were in the UK and if there were any advantages in doing so, e.g. faster, cheaper, easier etc...  However, I just read on one of the pinned posts here on TV, and have also just read on the gov.uk website that a UK visit visa application will be rejected if the applicant has right of abode in the UK, although the pinned post here suggests that it's possible that the visa application may slip through and get processed OK anyway. However, it would presumably not be a good idea to be in the UK with a child on a visit visa making an application for a UK passport for the child, so I think I'll scratch that plan.

 

So, my questions now are:

 

1. Has anyone got any recent experience of taking a child back to the UK on a visit visa even though technically the child would be entitled to Right of Abode in the UK?

2. Has anyone recently applied for and received back a child's first-issue UK passport? If so, how long did it take door-to-door?

 

Many thanks in advance for any advice offered. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer not to make it public.

[p_brownstone]

Not really answering your question, but have you Registered the child as a U.K. Citizen?

 

You will need to do that first before you can apply for a Passport.

 

Patrick

[brewsterbudgen]

My child's UK passport was issued in 3 weeks. That was a year ago and I've heard that it's quicker now. Your child will need a passport to travel to the UK.

 

There is no requirement to register the child as a UK citizen. Just apply for the passport.

 

Edit. If you use the child's Thai passport you will need a UK visa which won't be granted if they realise she's a UK citizen.

[p_brownstone]

2 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

There is no requirement to register the child as a UK citizen. Just apply for the passport.

 

 

Incorrect.

 

If the parents were not married at the time of birth - as the OP himself states  - the child has no automatic right to British Citizenship.

 

Please look up : The British Nationality (Proof of Paternity) Regulations 2015 .

 

Patrick

 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by p_brownstone

[theoldgit]

No, not automatic, but

Children born to a British citizen father on or after 1 July 2006 may acquire citizenship from him even if the parents were not married to each other, and will be a British citizen from birth automatically provided there is satisfactory evidence of paternity.

 

We may normally register a child, born before 1 July 2006, whose British citizen father was not married to their mother, under section 3(1) if:

 We are satisfied about the paternity of the child

 We have the consent of all those with parental responsibility

 If the child’s parents had been married, we would normally have registered under section 3(1)

 There is no reason to refuse on character grounds

 

The paternity evidence could be as simple as the father being named on the childs birth certificate:

Where the mother was not married at the time of a child’s birth and no provision is made through surrogacy arrangements or the female second parent provisions of the HFE Act 2008 as to the identity of the father, the "father" will be any person who is shown to be such by either:

 a birth certificate, issued within one year of the birth, naming the

child’s father, where the birth was registered before 10 September 2015

 any other evidence, such as DNA test reports, court orders or birth certificates, the Home Secretary considers to be relevant to the issue of paternity and to constitute sufficient proof.

 

MN1_Guide_January_2017.pdf

[p_brownstone]

2 hours ago, theoldgit said:

No, not automatic, but

 

 

 

Which is exactly what I said ........... "there is no automatic right to UK Citizenship".

 

To Quote from your own Post:

 

We may normally register a child, born before 1 July 2006, whose British citizen father was not married to their mother, under section 3(1).

 

i.e. you must first have the child Registered / Accepted as a U.K. Citizen before you can apply for a U.K. Passport.

 

Patrick

 

 

[theoldgit]

41 minutes ago, p_brownstone said:

Which is exactly what I said ........... "there is no automatic right to UK Citizenship".

 

Yes you did, but it's sometimes helpful to give a little more detail if you have it to hand.

[p_brownstone]

11 minutes ago, theoldgit said:

 

Yes you did, but it's sometimes helpful to give a little more detail if you have it to hand.

 

OK

 

How about this?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-as-a-british-citizen-form-ukf

 

Patrick

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

And as the OP was enquiring about getting a first UK passport for his child, in a short time-frame, it is very relevant to point out that there is no need to apply for UK citizenship first. If the child is not entitled to a UK passport, he/she won't get one.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, p_brownstone said:

 

Which is exactly what I said ........... "there is no automatic right to UK Citizenship".

 

To Quote from your own Post:

 

We may normally register a child, born before 1 July 2006, whose British citizen father was not married to their mother, under section 3(1).

 

i.e. you must first have the child Registered / Accepted as a U.K. Citizen before you can apply for a U.K. Passport.

 

Patrick

 

 

Jimmybkk's child is 9, therefore was born after 1st July 2006 and so can inherit British citizenship from his father even though his parents are not married.

 

Check if you're a British citizen.

Quote

When you’re not a British citizen

You won’t be a British citizen ‘by descent’ through your father if all the following apply:

• you were born before 1 July 2006
• your parents weren’t married when you were born and haven’t married since
• the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born distinguished between children of married and unmarried parents - check with the country

In this case, you might still be able to register as a British citizen.

(7by7 emphasis)

All of the following do not apply because the child was born after 1st July 2006.

 

The only reason why the child would not be automatically British is because Jimmybkk himself, is British by descent. This depends on where he was born.

 

If born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of his parents is British then he is British not by descent and so his children will be British wherever they are born.

 

But if born outside the UK or a qualifying territory then he is British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his citizenship onto his children unless they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

6 hours ago, p_brownstone said:

If the parents were not married at the time of birth - as the OP himself states  - the child has no automatic right to British Citizenship.

 

Please look up : The British Nationality (Proof of Paternity) Regulations 2015

You mean  The British Nationality (Proof of Paternity) (Amendment) Regulations 2015; which does not stop children born outside the UK after 1st July 2006 whose parents aren't married from inheriting their British father's nationality.

 

It is about proving paternity, and wont effect Jimmybkk and his child anyway as it only applies to children of unmarried parents whose birth certificates were issued after 10th September 2015!

 

An interesting commentary on this: Proving paternity in British nationality law: rule change on effect of birth certificates

Edited April 11, 2017 by 7by7

[7by7]

JimmyBKK, apologies that your topic has drifted away from your questions.

 

As I see it, you have four options.

 

1) Apply for a British passport for your child. This is obviously the best course, but there is a time problem. As Brewsterbudgen says, the average time for a child's first passport application from Thailand is around 3 weeks. But to make the application you will need, among other documents, your long form birth certificate to show that you can pass your British citizenship onto your child. Do you have it? If not, how long will it take to obtain it?

 

2) Apply for a Certificate of Entitlement to Right of Abode. But, like a passport, this takes time and you will need, among other documents, your long form birth certificate.

 

3) Apply for an Emergency Travel Document. This is usually not available to those who have not previously had a British passport; only those whose passport has been lost, stolen or damaged. But it may be possible if your child has an urgent need to travel to the UK before they can obtain their first British passport. But I assume the purpose of the trip is tourism and/or visit family; which wont be considered urgent.

 

4) Apply for a UK visit visa for your child and then obtain a British passport for them once you have returned to Thailand; remembering to gather all the necessary documents for this whilst in the UK.

 

As you know, technically such an application should be refused; but whether or not it will be depends on whether or not the ECO notices that your child is British. Sometimes they do, often they don't.

[p_brownstone]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Jimmybkk's child is 9, therefore was born after 1st July 2006 and so can inherit British citizenship from his father even though his parents are not married.

 

Check if you're a British citizen.

All of the following do not apply because the child was born after 1st July 2006.

 

The only reason why the child would not be automatically British is because Jimmybkk himself, is British by descent. This depends on where he was born.

 

If born in the UK or a qualifying territory and at least one of his parents is British then he is British not by descent and so his children will be British wherever they are born.

 

But if born outside the UK or a qualifying territory then he is British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his citizenship onto his children unless they are born in the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

You mean  The British Nationality (Proof of Paternity) (Amendment) Regulations 2015; which does not stop children born outside the UK after 1st July 2006 whose parents aren't married from inheriting their British father's nationality.

 

It is about proving paternity, and wont effect Jimmybkk and his child anyway as it only applies to children of unmarried parents whose birth certificates were issued after 10th September 2015!

 

An interesting commentary on this: Proving paternity in British nationality law: rule change on effect of birth certificates

 

 

In most parts you are wrong.

 

No one - certainly not I - contests the fact that the child is entitled to British Citizenship - but it is not automatic because the parents were not married at the time of birth.

 

However the British Father may apply to Register the child as a British Citizen using the Form I indexed earlier. Only once that has been done can he apply for a British Passport for his child.

 

It does not matter that the child was born before or after 1 July, 2006; the original British legislation was approved on 1 July 2006 but was not made retroactive - i.e. did not apply to children born before 1 July 2006. There was a huge campaign to remove this date restriction which eventually resulted in the amendment 2015 No. 1615 so the legislation now applies equally to any child born outside wedlock to a British father regardless of the date of birth.

 

BUT the Father must submit an application for the childs' British citizenship - with supporting documentation!

 

In the OP's case he cannot simply walk into a Passport Office and ask for a Passport for his child, he needs to have the childs' Nationality Registered and approved after submitting documentation - and possibly providing DNA evidence to prove he is the father.

 

Patrick

 

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by p_brownstone

[brewsterbudgen]

My son was born in Thailand, where I live, in March 2015. I am British and my son's mother is a citizen of Laos. We were not married. In November 2015 I applied for a UK passport for my son in Bangkok. The passport was issued in around 3 weeks.

 

At no stage did I apply for UK citizenship for him. I was specifically advised that this was unnecessary.

 

So I'm afraid your understanding is not accurate.

 

 

[p_brownstone]

1 minute ago, brewsterbudgen said:

My son was born in Thailand, where I live, in March 2015. I am British and my son's mother is a citizen of Laos. We were not married. In November I applied for a UK passport for my son in Bangkok. The passport was issued in around 3 weeks.

At no stage did I apply for UK citizenship for him. I was specifically advised that this was unnecessary.

So I'm afraid your understanding is not accurate.

 

Well, I must admit that surprises and confounds me!

 

You did not even need to show any evidence that the child was yours?

 

Patrick

[puchooay]

24 minutes ago, p_brownstone said:

 

 

In most parts you are wrong.

 

No one - certainly not I - contests the fact that the child is entitled to British Citizenship - but it is not automatic because the parents were not married at the time of birth.

 

However the British Father may apply to Register the child as a British Citizen using the Form I indexed earlier. Only once that has been done can he apply for a British Passport for his child.

 

It does not matter that the child was born before or after 1 July, 2006; the original British legislation was approved on 1 July 2006 but was not made retroactive - i.e. did not apply to children born before 1 July 2006. There was a huge campaign to remove this date restriction which eventually resulted in the amendment 2015 No. 1615 so the legislation now applies equally to any child born outside wedlock to a British father regardless of the date of birth.

 

BUT the Father must submit an application for the childs' British citizenship - with supporting documentation!

 

In the OP's case he cannot simply walk into a Passport Office and ask for a Passport for his child, he needs to have the childs' Nationality Registered and approved after submitting documentation - and possibly providing DNA evidence to prove he is the father.

 

Patrick

 

 

My daughter was born in 2002. I and my wife married in 2006. My daughter has never been registered as a UK citizen. Her UK passport was issued in May last year. There is no need to register as a UK citizen first.

[brewsterbudgen]

 
Well, I must admit that surprises and confounds me!
 
You did not even need to show any evidence that the child was yours?
 
Patrick

A translated (Thai) birth certificate.

[7by7]

42 minutes ago, p_brownstone said:

It does not matter that the child was born before or after 1 July, 2006; the original British legislation was approved on 1 July 2006 but was not made retroactive - i.e. did not apply to children born before 1 July 2006. 

 

You are correct that the legislation was not retroactive and so does not apply to children born outside the UK or a qualifying territory to British fathers who are not married to the non British mother before 1st July 2006; but you are wrong to say that it does not matter when the child was born!

 

Born before 1st July 2006; child not British but may be able to register as such. Indeed, will also become British if the parents subsequently marry.

 

Born on or after 1st July 2006; automatically British provided the father is British not by descent.

 

It is all there in the links I provided earlier.

 

Indeed, the link you provided about registration says

Quote

Form to register as a British citizen by a person born before 1 July 2006 to a British father and whose parents were not married

Before; not after!

 

That is because, as brewsterbudgen found when he applied for a British passport for his son, registration of a child born on or after 1st July 2006 is unnecessary because the child is already British!

 

That he was able to do so only surprises and confounds you because you do not understand the relevant legislation.

 

Addendum.

As shown earlier by a link to the legislation and an article about it, DNA evidence of paternity may only be required if the birth was registered after 10th September 2015. For births registered prior to that all that is required is the birth certificate.

Edited April 11, 2017 by 7by7

[7by7]

6 hours ago, puchooay said:

My daughter was born in 2002. I and my wife married in 2006. My daughter has never been registered as a UK citizen. Her UK passport was issued in May last year. There is no need to register as a UK citizen first.

 This is because you legitimised (horrible word!) your daughter when you married her mother. In doing so she automatically became British.

 

Had you not subsequently married her mother then, because she was born before 1st July 2006, she would not have become British and so would need to apply to be registered as British.

 

To clarify; prior to 1st July 2006 only British mothers could pass their citizenship onto their illegitimate (a horrible label for a child!) children born outside the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

From 1st July onwards, British fathers have also been able to pass their citizenship onto their illegitimate children born abroad; provided they can prove paternity.

 

For births registered prior to 10th September 2015, all the father needs for this is to be named on the birth certificate. But for births registered on or after that date other proof may also be required such as a court order or even a DNA test. I have no idea why this, to me draconian requirement, was brought in.

 

For anyone who still has doubts; see sub paragraph ( d ) "Parent" under "Definitions" in Section 1 General of this document.

 

[jimmybkk]

Many thanks to all those who have taken the time to reply and offer advice. There's some great info here and if 3 weeks is a more realistic ballpark for when we may receive the passport rather than the 6 weeks mentioned on the gov.uk website then that is the route I shall be heading down. I looked into the Certificate of Entitlement for Right of Abode as an option but it seemed to be the most expensive route.

 

For the record, when my gf was pregnant (late 2007) I made a call to the British Embassy to enquire whether obtaining a British passport for our child would be easier if we were married, which is what I had heard was the case, and was advised no, it used to be easier but the rules and regulations have changed and now it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

 

Thanks once again to all who have responded. I have learned a lot and appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experiences.

[rwdrwdrwd]

My kid got his in 10 days - get down there asap and get the process going.

[jimmybkk]

1 hour ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

My kid got his in 10 days - get down there asap and get the process going.

That's great to hear. Thanks for that.

[puchooay]

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 This is because you legitimised (horrible word!) your daughter when you married her mother. In doing so she automatically became British.

 

Had you not subsequently married her mother then, because she was born before 1st July 2006, she would not have become British and so would need to apply to be registered as British.

 

To clarify; prior to 1st July 2006 only British mothers could pass their citizenship onto their illegitimate (a horrible label for a child!) children born outside the UK or a qualifying territory.

 

From 1st July onwards, British fathers have also been able to pass their citizenship onto their illegitimate children born abroad; provided they can prove paternity.

 

For births registered prior to 10th September 2015, all the father needs for this is to be named on the birth certificate. But for births registered on or after that date other proof may also be required such as a court order or even a DNA test. I have no idea why this, to me draconian requirement, was brought in.

 

For anyone who still has doubts; see sub paragraph ( d ) "Parent" under "Definitions" in Section 1 General of this document.

 

I posted to show that there is no need to register as a citizen prior to obtaining a passport. The post that I quoted suggested otherwise.