Officer on leave after dragging United Airlines passenger off plane

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Interesting post. There is no turning back the clock, so video-driven outrage is here to stay. Whether its effects will be dire is debateable (and worthy of a thread of its own). Perhaps the newly acquired power of ordinary people on social media, rather than corporate or government media, will lead to a better, more open society?

I don't suppose anything routine or ordinary will get videoed or watched.  Video footage is difficult to deny, whereas spoken testimony can be twisted.  On the other hand, it is annoying to have cameras everywhere, theoretically watching your every move.

[brewsterbudgen]

I don't suppose anything routine or ordinary will get videoed or watched.  Video footage is difficult to deny, whereas spoken testimony can be twisted.  On the other hand, it is annoying to have cameras everywhere, theoretically watching your every move.

Indeed. I like to think that the recent changes in regard to road safety policy here in Thailand have, somewhat, been expedited by the constant dashcam footage on social media. Maybe not for this thread, but the sociological impact is consequential.

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

Absolutely wrong. The guy might be an unsympathetic character and 99.999% of passengers, myself included, would have complied with the directive. That said, this is a monumental stuff-up by United and by security. The incompetent processes led to the situation, the airline's stinginess compounded it, the initial communication from Munoz was risible in respect of just how out of touch he is with public sentiment and expectations of corporate accountability, the violence was completely uncalled for.

Hardly surprising that hundreds of millions wiped off stock values. 

Overall: a case study in how not to run a business.

It also needs to be said that just because someone does not comply with someone else's wishes it does not make them argumentative, belligerent or anti-social.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

Absolutely wrong. The guy might be an unsympathetic character and 99.999% of passengers, myself included, would have complied with the directive. That said, this is a monumental stuff-up by United and by security. The incompetent processes led to the situation, the airline's stinginess compounded it, the initial communication from Munoz was risible in respect of just how out of touch he is with public sentiment and expectations of corporate accountability, the violence was completely uncalled for.

Hardly surprising that hundreds of millions wiped off stock values. 

Overall: a case study in how not to run a business.

If Munoz has lost shareholders millions, his days are numbered ( hopefully ). Would that make a difference, doubt it. Perhaps United needs to follow TWA and Pan Am into oblivion.

[Dipterocarp]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What no one seems to have picked up on is that the guy dragging the passenger down the aisle is NOT a cop. Cops wear uniforms- he is wearing jeans. Did he have the authority to physically manhandle anyone?

The Chicago Aviation officers are sworn Peace Officers in State of Illinois. Maybe that is their dress code. Ever heard of undercover? There are armed Air Marshalls on some planes also, they dress to blend in I understand.  I never justify  the Police brutality demonstrated constantly in America.

 

 Say the polite Bobbies of Englund ask a person to leave private property. The person refuses. What happens next the policemen just give up trying and let them be?

 

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

In this instance no passenger needed to be inconvenienced to make way for operational staff who for one reason or another had not got their act together.

 

 

Many ridiculous assertions on this thread but, operational staff not getting "their act together"? Their managers assign them to ride on a flight for the purpose of operating successive flights. If the employees refuse an assignment they would be fired!

Edited April 12, 2017 by Dipterocarp

[SiamBeast]

Their PR guy must be Thai. "Not my fault - he was disruptive".

 

The appropriate move would be a very pinky excuse with some cute words and an apology. Then give a stack of cash to that patient. If the guy's a doctor, you probably picked the wrong guy.

[pegman]

2 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

The guy was not only a anti-social self-entitled childish buffoon (how does someone like that become a doctor?), but quite simply his actions were illegal. An airplane is a highly sensitive area. It's irresponsible to defend him.

 

The airline could certainly sue him for all the trouble he has caused - which in reputational terms is substantial due to all the butthurt outrage warriors in the world nowadays - but probably won't because that would be bad PR. I feel sorry for the airline for having to deal with these idiots.

 

The biggest issue here is not to do with a trivial fracas on a plane, nor even that of management - it's how video-driven outrage is being used to shape society. Make no mistake, societally this will have dire long term effects. It's already demonstrably killing the human spirit by dragging everyone down to the comfort zone of the most insecure.

Those nasty cameras putting nails in you precious police state coffin. It was excessive force and criminal charges need to be laid. Tellingly the thug cop was immediately taken out of service. As for United I've flown 100's of flights on many carriers all over this world and NONE come close to to them for horrific service. 

[Familyonthemove]

8 hours ago, Kadilo said:

United Airlines boss sorry for 'horrific' passenger removal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39572841

......and the climb down begins


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Too little, too late.  The CEO is clearly unsuited for his role.

[kkerry]

I thought maybe Virgin Atlantic would be first with a new advertisement but Emirates have beaten them to it.  

 

 

 

 

 

[mtls2005]

Rumor is UA is planning a new ad campaign featuring Kendall Jenner.

[vogie]

 

[orchidlady]

19 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

Yeah - useless things if you don't plan to travel soon.

 

 

If they offered cash I'm sure they would have had takers ($800 per pax).

The airline screwed up by not planning for the staff they needed in Kentucky. Unless all four staffers were replacing other staffers at the last minute who were admitted to hospital, drunk (internet has news story about United pilot drunk, not in uniform, ranting about her divorce and politics), or who died... they should have used another airline OR how about renting van and driver to drive the crew the 4.5 hours to Kentucky in the spirit of customer service. 

As it was, the plane as delayed several hours to clean up the blood from this incident.

 

Of course they have no concern for passengers. United has many flights departing from China, will be interesting to see how reservations are effected by this. Earlier, social media comments about this incident were viewed by 98.5 million Chinese. 

[Dipterocarp]

11 hours ago, orchidlady said:

If they offered cash I'm sure they would have had takers ($800 per pax).

The airline screwed up by not planning for the staff they needed in Kentucky. Unless all four staffers were replacing other staffers at the last minute who were admitted to hospital, drunk (internet has news story about United pilot drunk, not in uniform, ranting about her divorce and politics), or who died... they should have used another airline OR how about renting van and driver to drive the crew the 4.5 hours to Kentucky in the spirit of customer service. 

As it was, the plane as delayed several hours to clean up the blood from this incident.

 

Of course they have no concern for passengers. United has many flights departing from China, will be interesting to see how reservations are effected by this. Earlier, social media comments about this incident were viewed by 98.5 million Chinese.

 

 

What does a Vietnamese American behaving badly and getting brutalized by thuggish cops have to do with China?

 

Operating crew board at the highest priority to avoid delays of subsequent flights. Say you are on The next days morning flight from Lou-A-Vuhl to Chicago. It is delayed 5 hours now because your crew had to take a van. Now you miss your connection to Asia and have to stay one night in a hotel in Chicago. If the flight the next day  is full you know you are now on standby for that flight also.

 

How many days are you and everyone else on the flight happy to be delayed because one man refuses a valid instruction to deplane then legal orders from law enforcement?

[Dagnabbit]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

It also needs to be said that just because someone does not comply with someone else's wishes it does not make them argumentative, belligerent or anti-social.

Spot on.

 

Just a civil disagreement.

[eldragon]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What no one seems to have picked up on is that the guy dragging the passenger down the aisle is NOT a cop. Cops wear uniforms- he is wearing jeans. Did he have the authority to physically manhandle anyone?

He was an officer of some sort. Airport security. Whatever. Obviously they were sent in there for a reason. I'm sure there will be some scapegoats here. You can always handle an arrest/removal situation better. But the only point worth arguing here is if the airline had the right to bump the guy after he boarded the plane. It's a procedural issue. The officers were just doing their jobs.

[kkerry]

51 minutes ago, orchidlady said:

If they offered cash I'm sure they would have had takers ($800 per pax).

The airline screwed up by not planning for the staff they needed in Kentucky. Unless all four staffers were replacing other staffers at the last minute who were admitted to hospital, drunk (internet has news story about United pilot drunk, not in uniform, ranting about her divorce and politics), or who died... they should have used another airline OR how about renting van and driver to drive the crew the 4.5 hours to Kentucky in the spirit of customer service. 

As it was, the plane as delayed several hours to clean up the blood from this incident.

 

Of course they have no concern for passengers. United has many flights departing from China, will be interesting to see how reservations are effected by this. Earlier, social media comments about this incident were viewed by 98.5 million Chinese. 

 

Now that it turns out he was from Vietnam, maybe not so much damage. 

 

However folks in Vietnam aren't real pleased.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/fury-in-vietnam-over-united-passenger-dragged-from-plane/3672086.html

Luckily for UA, they don't fly to Vietnam.

[mommysboy]

38 minutes ago, eldragon said:

He was an officer of some sort. Airport security. Whatever. Obviously they were sent in there for a reason. I'm sure there will be some scapegoats here. You can always handle an arrest/removal situation better. But the only point worth arguing here is if the airline had the right to bump the guy after he boarded the plane. It's a procedural issue. The officers were just doing their jobs.

 

Therein lies the blunder: this was much more than a procedural issue.

 

There are 'perfect storms' where just about everything contrives to produce a sticky situation.  Ultimately though, we are left with a 69 year old man being dragged roughly from his seat, having been faced with a quite extraordinary set of circumstances.

 

Every other participant in this story is a trained professional, whereas the victim is not, yet an element on this forum seem to place an undue emphasis on his competence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Dipterocarp said:

What does a Vietnamese American behaving badly and getting brutalized by thuggish cops have to do with China?

 

Operating crew board at the highest priority to avoid delays of subsequent flights. Say you are on The next days morning flight from Lou-A-Vuhl to Chicago. It is delayed 5 hours now because your crew had to take a van. Now you miss your connection to Asia and have to stay one night in a hotel in Chicago. If the flight the next day  is full you know you are now on standby for that flight also.

 

How many days are you and everyone else on the flight happy to be delayed because one man refuses a valid instruction to deplane then legal orders from law enforcement?

"What does a Vietnamese American behaving badly and getting brutalized by thuggish cops have to do with China?"

 

Wow!  The victim's nationality is somehow important rather than the behaviour of the airline and thug?

[dick dasterdly]

Its been pointed out time and time again that the airline could have sorted this out easily by offering a generous offer in the first place.  Instead the local management preferred to rely on paltry amounts and then to bring in 'the heavies'...

 

A bad mistake compounded by the CEO then blaming the passenger - before changing tactics when he realised that the VAST majority blamed the company and security guard .

 

At the end of the day, I'd be very suprised if this doesn't cost the company a fortune in damages/legal fees/PR etc. etc. - all of which could have been avoided if they'd only made a generous offer for passengers to voluntarily wait for the next flight in the first place.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Basil B]

4 hours ago, Dipterocarp said:

 Say the polite Bobbies of Englund ask a person to leave private property. The person refuses. What happens next the policemen just give up trying and let them be?

Had this happened in the UK the security guard would have been charge with Assault and Battery, and/or even GBH (Grievous bodily harm).

 

A stand off whereby a person unlawfully stands their ground, in first instance they would be asked to leave, the police would be called and the police would try to resolve it peacefully, then they would be informed of what criminal charges they are committing and if they persist they will be arrested, if this was on a plane I think it would have been wise to deplane if not all certainly clear 2 or 3 rows behind and in front and all rows to the nearest exit. 

 

Fact is The British Bobby is trained not to let the situation get out of hand, first action would be to handcuff, this normally will have a sobering effect, if still refusing to move then leg restraints and rap him in blankets or strapping him into an ambulance chair before carrying him off the plane.

[lvr181]

21 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

You want security men to act like social workers. I'd rather they acted like security men and kicked ass when necessary - for the good of everyone.

 

This thread has degenerated into a typical whiny faux-outrage fest. Did someone actually say above that the guy's life has been ruined? Everyone needs to strap on a pair and stop promoting victimhood.

 

 

 

 

Jeez, are you for real? He may have been a Dr? Do you know otherwise? He may have expected to return to his workplace. Do you know otherwise? Do you know anything about his circumstances?

If it was me on my way to a connecting flight I would refuse to budge also!

Forget your strapped on pair and get another brain! Get in the queue behind United CEO.

I hope the guy sues the backside off United for their inexcusable actions.

[jerojero]

When they give me a $600 round trip ticket between Houston and Bangkok.

In a middle seat, row 137 or last row 'lavatory seating' ? What's your preference?

 

[55Jay]

Routine operational requirements or even an overbooking/oversale scenario isn't a Trump Card, giving UA carte blanche. Like, "Woo Hoo, the gloves are off, anything goes now!" 

 

UA and the police lost the plot here.

 

Chicago PD management grasped that glaringly obvious fact early on, raised their hand and owned it, "Yeah, our guy(s) screwed up on this one".  That's how rational, mature adults and senior management officials conduct themselves if and when their folks screw up.  It happens.  Often.  Humans can and do screw the pooch.

 

UA's CEO Munoz, on the other hand, went the other way and in doing so, confirmed poor judgement is not confined to a few managers/supervisors at the UA Chicago station.  Moreover, by circling the wagons and issuing a cheerleader's memo of unconditional support to the employees involved, might well be a symptom of a broader, top down cultural problem.  Or he's just a weak leader, terrified of internal conflict with employees and their union.  Or both.

[Basil B]

20 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Is it fact that the passenger actually got violent with the third police officer?

They were not police officers...

 

Just some goons with limited powers of law enforcement.

[Dipterocarp]

15 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Had this happened in the UK the security guard would have been charge with Assault and Battery, and/or even GBH (Grievous bodily harm).

 

A stand off whereby a person unlawfully stands their ground, in first instance they would be asked to leave, the police would be called and the police would try to resolve it peacefully, then they would be informed of what criminal charges they are committing and if they persist they will be arrested, if this was on a plane I think it would have been wise to deplane if not all certainly clear 2 or 3 rows behind and in front and all rows to the nearest exit. 

 

Fact is The British Bobby is trained not to let the situation get out of hand, first action would be to handcuff, this normally will have a sobering effect, if still refusing to move then leg restraints and rap him in blankets or strapping him into an ambulance chair before carrying him off the plane.

Thanks. I read elsewhere there is no legal right in the UK jurisdictions to use force in the case of trespass. Sounded like "rubbish" to me. Apparently the Chicago Aviation Officers are sworn peace officers in state of Illinois so they have some authority. I thought they were just rent-a-cops. The same sequence of events should have happened, explaining charges and prior to cuffing. In the states however you are required to remain passive and not resist in anyway, such as flexing arms and struggling, or else they can lay other charges such as "resisting arrest" , etc

Edited April 12, 2017 by Dipterocarp

[Basil B]

some countries need to look at the booking conditions of flights which do seem one sided.

 

Buy a no frills coach class ticket, no changes allowed or at unjustifiably high surcharges, no refund even though the may have sold your seat, yet they can just kick you of the plane just to give your seat to crew of another airline.

[Basil B]

6 minutes ago, Dipterocarp said:

Thanks. I read elsewhere there is no legal right in the UK jurisdictions to use force in the case of trespass

Possibly not, but once a person is asked to leave and refuses they are committing an offence, so can be arrested thereby reasonable force could be used to take them into custody. 

[tuktuktuk]

13 minutes ago, jerojero said:

In a middle seat, row 137 or last row 'lavatory seating' ? What's your preference?

 

Last row. Lavatory is the best spot. Better leg room. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Therein lies the blunder: this was much more than a procedural issue.

 

There are 'perfect storms' where just about everything contrives to produce a sticky situation.  Ultimately though, we are left with a 69 year old man being dragged roughly from his seat, having been faced with a quite extraordinary set of circumstances.

 

Every other participant in this story is a trained professional, whereas the victim is not, yet an element on this forum seem to place an undue emphasis on his competence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's called  "blame the victim", and is in evidence in one posters attacks on him.

The point isn't whether the airline had the right to remove him, but the way the whole incident was handled. Hopefully more late night hosts on tv will join Kimmel in attacking United and they will actually not need to remove passengers in future, as no passengers.

[thaibeachlovers]

33 minutes ago, lvr181 said:

Jeez, are you for real? He may have been a Dr? Do you know otherwise? He may have expected to return to his workplace. Do you know otherwise? Do you know anything about his circumstances?

If it was me on my way to a connecting flight I would refuse to budge also!

Forget your strapped on pair and get another brain! Get in the queue behind United CEO.

I hope the guy sues the backside off United for their inexcusable actions.

I would expect the lawyers to be lining up to represent him. Gonna be a big payout. Seems like everyone hates United.