Guest House Closures

[simoh1490]

9 hours ago, Gonzo the Face said:

 

Simoh1490 ????  are you sure you are on the right forum ????  I must say that was a very un -TV thing to say, but it just may restore my belief in humanity.  More seriously , if you get the chance please stop by.  Be good to put a face to that offer.

Apologies for changing the modus operandi of the forum :)

 

As said I'll be by to say hi and hopefully discuss how people can help with your issue.

[Loaded]

9 hours ago, Farma said:

to get a hotel license you need to provide architectual drawings

I suppose its not as simple as getting a local architect to draw up some plans.

I'm sure an engineer's report is also needed.

 

The original engineer will need to sign off the report/building as fit for purpose. If the engineer is dead or not around, you have to find a higher-level engineer to sign off. However, the engineer has you by the short and curlies because they dictate how much they charge for this signature.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Loaded

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Loaded said:

I'm sure an engineer's report is also needed.

 

The original engineer will need to sign off the report/building as fit for purpose. If the engineer is dead or not around, you have to find a higher-level engineer to sign off. However, the engineer has you by the short and curlies because they dictate how much they charge for this signature.

Maybe somebody on TVF knows an engineer who could potentially assist with this? So far it sounds like plans, conformity to compliance regs. and engineers signature before license application - what else is needed?

[Gonzo the Face]

11 hours ago, Gonzo the Face said:

 

Simoh1490 ????  are you sure you are on the right forum ????  I must say that was a very un -TV thing to say, but it just may restore my belief in humanity.  More seriously , if you get the chance please stop by.  Be good to put a face to that offer.

Simoh1490  please forgive my rudeness in not saying a very big thank you for your post.  Must have been the shock of seeing aTV post like that,..    thank you muchly

Edited April 29, 2017 by Gonzo the Face

[Dante99]

If an engineer's sign off is needed, I suggest talking with the head of the Civil Engineering Department at CMU or maybe it would be Structural Engineering.  I got great help there some years ago, free.

 

Might even check with the Architect Department there too, get the plans done as a student project and signed off by a professor?

 

Some of your structures should be easy to sort if I remember them correctly.

 

Best of luck with it all Gonzo.

[Loaded]

but, are they fit  for purpose? size of rooms, facilities, fire escapes - whatever the regulations are for licensing guest houses and hotels. The building still needs to be suitable for the business it serves.

 

 

[Dante99]

10 minutes ago, Loaded said:

but, are they fit  for purpose? size of rooms, facilities, fire escapes - whatever the regulations are for licensing guest houses and hotels. The building still needs to be suitable for the business it serves.

 

 

probably only a building inspector could answer that and if you asked two you would likely get different answers 

[Loaded]

On 29/4/2560 at 9:13 AM, Dante99 said:

probably only a building inspector could answer that and if you asked two you would likely get different answers 

No you wouldn't; they follow the same specifications.

 

 

[Dante99]

You really think that is true in CM?  You really think there are building inspectors in CM?  If so, where can they be found?

[Loaded]

4 hours ago, Dante99 said:

You really think that is true in CM?  You really think there are building inspectors in CM?  If so, where can they be found?

Yes, it's true. I run a business (not hotel or guest house) that required a visit from building inspectors from the tesabahn (new purpose built building) and an engineers report before we could obtain our license to run our business.

 

 

[holy cow cm]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 10:37 AM, moe666 said:

The inspectors were putting pressure on a friend, they were threatening to change his guest house to a hotel which would have required a fire escape and a few other expensive upgrades. He negotiated and they decided he was a guest house.. The biggest fiasco is the hotel/ condominum on Nimann across from Maya. The owner built as a condo opened as a hotel city shut him down

Tan's place

[Dante99]

On 4/30/2017 at 4:09 PM, Loaded said:

Yes, it's true. I run a business (not hotel or guest house) that required a visit from building inspectors from the tesabahn (new purpose built building) and an engineers report before we could obtain our license to run our business.

 

 

Thanks.  Never encountered that in rural CM but maybe it has arrived there now too.  My experience is residential not commercial.

[Gonzo the Face]

I address this to all readers of this forum.  Much has been said, maybe too much, about the character and make up of the crotchety, caustic, argumentative ,  always bitching coming from certain posters on these forums.  Now I would like you to hear of the other side of the coin
Yesterday, as a result of the difficulties I have been experiencing,  I was pleased and honored to receive a visit from two of our thoughtful, concerned and helpful posters.  We discussed the issue at hand for the better part of 3 hours.  I don't know if we solved any of the problems but really went into them  To these two fellow TV members, I say a truly heartfelt thank you for even taking the time to consider helping in any way possible.  You two do show that there is concern and a true heart in some of the forum members.  Again a great big THANK YOU to CMSally and Simoh1490.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Gonzo the Face

[cheeryble]

FYI I have a friend whose wife runs their guesthouse.
They've done a renovation job and tried to get licensed and have encountered great difficulty.....still closed after many many months
Can't tell u the detail sorry.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Gonzo the Face]

Request to all members of this forum that may have first hand knowledge,, if not firsthand please mention its what you have heard..   Do you know of any guesthouse or hotel that has actually been shut or curtailed due to lack of a hotel license?  I would be very interested in hearing about this.   Thanks

[WinnieTheKhwai]

5 hours ago, Gonzo the Face said:

Request to all members of this forum that may have first hand knowledge,, if not firsthand please mention its what you have heard..   Do you know of any guesthouse or hotel that has actually been shut or curtailed due to lack of a hotel license?  I would be very interested in hearing about this.   Thanks

I don't know of any that were forced to close, other than the place in the news articles a couple months ago.   I do know of four separate new ones that opened up recently and that I assisted with.   It seems that if they're lucky they get a visit from the authorities who will tell them what to do.  Then there is a bit of a negotiation and in the end it ends up in a gray area, but good enough to conduct business apparently.

 

(The cultivation of a legal gray area seems the goal among people in government, as it's fertile ground for extra income.)

 

Others just can't get authorities to come over to even look, as there is a huge backlog and focus seems to be on larger places that are actual hotels.

 

Typically the goal for the places I have first-hand experience with was to register *NOT* as a hotel because the rules for hotels are a lot more elaborate.  This meant reducing the number of rooms, and/or the number of total beds to get in line.  (Wasn't much of a problem in both cases: one of the places took out a couple beds, the other went for the gray area: some rooms are technically not in the same building.. or some rooms are not to be rented out daily but monthly only (which is of course impossible for authorities to check), etc. etc.   

 

Long story short: all your rooms and cottages are on the same chanote likely so that makes it difficult to cut it up. (unless you want to cut up the chanote into two or three separate plots..) What I would do is go up-market, and assign some of the bungalows for long-term renting, regardless of what actually gets booked. (I recall you had some separate cottages too.. not sure actually so please ignore that if incorrect.)

 

In the end the tourism business is completely off the charts currently in Chiang Mai and authorities don't actually want to close places down and especially not places that are willing to play ball and are receptive to their suggestions.  (A shortage of rooms in Chiang Mai would mean fewer tourists/less income.)  It typically comes down to doing 'just enough' to please authorities to continue on in a semi gray area; that's what they want anyway. :)  

 

And clearly you need to comply with as many regulations as possible, including of course the TM30 registration (assume you do that already), CCTV cameras, fire extinguisher/smoke detectors, etc.)   And things like a fire escape.. really how much of a financial burden could that be in the current market.. Say it costs 50K to build: so what.  And it's probably a good thing to have anyway.

 

Other advice, unrelated and you didn't ask for it, but...:  Get better photos!!!! :) (For your listings on all the booking sites)  And maybe provide bicycles (cheap/free) as you're just slightly out of walking distance to most places.  And yes it's time to go up-market, one room at the time if need be for cash-flow reasons.. it still looks pretty much like the first guesthouse-boom in Chiang Mai in the 1980s, but these days the demographics are different and nice new airconditioning, good beds and crisp linens are very appreciated.  Also see if you can create some nice family rooms for people travelling with children, or (Chinese) groups of friends travelling together.  A single person or couple travelling was maybe also very 1980s, but demographics are different here too and many hotels don't bother to cater to it. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by WinnieTheKhwai

[cmsally]

Nope haven't seen anywhere closed. How is it going Gonzo?

I think there are far larger places to hold the authorities attention.

As for the "grey area", it really depends on who the "authorities" are.

There is only one kind of hotel license issued by the Amphur. It is likely the Tesabahn is pushing for those who can't pass the specs to license as a "hong pak"

One relatively new spec for hotels is to have 30% green area, so obviously your bog standard "hong taew" doesn't pass on that one, that would be a major stumbling block.

 

[Bassosa]

4 hours ago, cmsally said:

Nope haven't seen anywhere closed. How is it going Gonzo?

I think there are far larger places to hold the authorities attention.

As for the "grey area", it really depends on who the "authorities" are.

There is only one kind of hotel license issued by the Amphur. It is likely the Tesabahn is pushing for those who can't pass the specs to license as a "hong pak"

One relatively new spec for hotels is to have 30% green area, so obviously your bog standard "hong taew" doesn't pass on that one, that would be a major stumbling block.

 

 30% green area? So 30% of your land needs to remain undeveloped? This new rule is indeed in effect?

 

That would indeed be a huge stumbling block.

[cmsally]

I was told this rule was in effect , if you wanted an actual hotel license. I think they said it was in new regulations which were brought in about 2 yrs ago. Sorry not sure of exact time on that one but I think they said 2 years.

[Loaded]

If the hotel/Guest House isn't licensed, where does that leave an insurance claim?

[Dante99]

Who has insurance?

[Loaded]

The legal ones

[Dante99]

10 minutes ago, Loaded said:

The legal ones

Which implies the non licensed ones do not.  So your question in post #50 is ??????

 

 

[Loaded]

3 hours ago, Dante99 said:

Which implies the non licensed ones do not.  So your question in post #50 is ??????

 

 

it's not difficult. I'll repeat:

 

" If the hotel/Guest House isn't licensed, where does that leave an insurance claim? "

 

I guess the owner of the establishment cannot insure his building or guests. I also guess guests will have personal insurance policies they can't claim against if they stay in an unlicensed/illegal establishment. I'd welcome your opinion on this.

 

I also suspect that tax hasn't been paid appropriately for the running of a hotel/guest house business if that business has never been licensed to run that business.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Loaded

[cmsally]

I would doubt you would need a license to get building insurance. I doubt it would make a difference to personal claims as the license (or not) wouldn't fit any kind of international standardisation.

Hmm tax , I know a lot of people make the effort to be above board and pay everything but I rather think the majority of locals pay not a lot/nothing.

[Sparkles]

We often stay at small resorts around CM province and did so last week.I can never remember ever getting a receipt and always pay cash

[Bill97]

If the hotel/Guest House isn't licensed, where does that leave an insurance claim?

Depends on the fine print on the policy, doesn't it? They are not all the same, are they?

[Loaded]

22 hours ago, cmsally said:

I would doubt you would need a license to get building insurance. I doubt it would make a difference to personal claims as the license (or not) wouldn't fit any kind of international standardisation.

Hmm tax , I know a lot of people make the effort to be above board and pay everything but I rather think the majority of locals pay not a lot/nothing.

My experience has always been that insurance companies want as much info as possible otherwise they cannot calculate risk and then quote a premium. Which insurance companies don't want to know whether the use of the building is business or residential? Then, if business, it's use and whether it is operating within the laws and regulations of that country.

 

People avoiding tax doesn't make it legal.

 

The OP is concerned about not having a license for his guest house. I don't feel his friends telling him "don't think too much" is of much help to him. He's asking because I guess he wants to know the possible consequences of not having a license.

[CNXBKKMAN]

I think with insurance if you paid for buildings insurance for a residential home but then were using that home as a guest house your insurance would be void . If you bought buildings insurance for a guest house but didn't have all the government permits, in a place like Thailand  the insurers may not be bothered by that aspect. If I was in that position I would get it verified with the insurance company. What's the point of paying xxxxx baht for insurance if in the event of a claim it's worthless. They won't give you your premium back either. You are just wasting your money and  may lose everything when some backpacker is using a camping stove in the room and burns the whole place down.

[Bill97]

My experience has always been that insurance companies want as much info as possible otherwise they cannot calculate risk and then quote a premium. Which insurance companies don't want to know whether the use of the building is business or residential? Then, if business, it's use and whether it is operating within the laws and regulations of that country.
 

Have had commercial property insurance for decades and never any questions related to whether or not the occupant is operating within the laws and regulations.

Insurance requiring that would be next to useless because an occupant or tenant might be compliant one day but not the next and nobody checks it 24/7.