Help to spread liberalism in Thailand

[swfsql]

Hello, I'd like to introduce myself: I'm a libertarian student, visited Thailand once and can't speak Thai (slowly learning it).

 

Have said that: I'm looking for people who is interested in libertarianism or classical liberalism. I can't tell how ostrong (or known) these philosophies are among Thai students.. I assume it's generally unkown. Authors such as John Locke, David Ricardo, Ludwig von Mises and Murray Rothbard comes to my mind. Hans-Hermman Hoppe also brings the democracy versus monarchy discussion and Milton Friedman have nice talks and analogies about drug prohibition - I think those sort of opposition are present among thai people.

 

I'm looking for people because I think those authors can be spread among Thai students within a decade and, of course, I think this knowledge matters. 

I myself just started a website in portuguese where brazilians can discuss libertarianism - the authors are already widely and wildly spreading among brazilian students (informally), thanks to the work of other people that, since 2005, have been translating and publishing some material - and I intend to start the same thing for Thai language. (btw: that website of mine has zero users hahaha)

 

I have no money (I'm just a student :D ) but I can volunteer to make PDF files out of translated work that you (if you do want to help) do - there is a screenshot (of "mobile-version") and attachments of such PDFs, made out of an essay in english, to serve as an example.

 

If you are interested, send PM.

 

** files removed

**facebook /email removed.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by CharlieH
Self promotion prohibited.

[SiamBeast]

So basically you wish to go to a country you only visited once, don't speak the language, and teach them how to give up on their culture that's been here for thousands of years? You can have neo-liberarism, or you can have an healthy society, but you can't have both.

You're either a troll, or a basement dweller. People are not "equal", have never been, and will never be.

Edited April 14, 2017 by SiamBeast

[swfsql]

Hold on, this is intended to gather people that support the idea, not to discuss the idea itself!

Anyway, accepting your provocations:

 

6 minutes ago, SiamBeast said:

you wish to go to a country you only visited once, don't speak the language

I said nothing about me moving to Thailand, you deduced that on your own.

 

7 minutes ago, SiamBeast said:

and teach them how to give up on their culture that's been here for thousands of years?

I don't accept this criticism since I'm asking for voluntary interactions. Wouldn't it be much worse if you, for example, tried to stop anyone from learning anything? Also.. the "[culture that has] been here for thousands of years" is just an argumentum ad antiquitatem ("a conclusion supported solely because it has long been held to be true", according to wikipedia).

 

10 minutes ago, SiamBeast said:

You can have neo-liberarism, or you can have an healthy society, but you can't have both.

This libertarianism and classical liberalism. There is nothing about "neo-liberalism".

"or you can have an healthy society, but you can't have both" then I recommend you to read the very PDF file I posted as an example! According to it, considering you meant classical liberalism instead of neo-liberalism, you're wrong.

 

12 minutes ago, SiamBeast said:

You're either a troll, or a basement dweller. People are not "equal", have never been, and will never be.

Maybe you are the troll, who knows? I (nor any of the authors mentioned) never said people ought to be equal, because people are actually different, you know? Now, Locke's natural or Hoppe's argumentative law equality is something I stand for.

[CharlieH]

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[Jingthing]

The culture here is deeply anti-intellectual, even in academia or perhaps especially there.

 

So good luck with that.

[swfsql]

I undestand that, Brazil is not so different form Thailand then. This spread must naturally intend to reach students informally, out of the academia. Actually, in Brazil, people compare (in google trends) academia authors such as Karl Marx with von Mises, for example, and we can see that Marx's search rate is drastically reduced in holidays and vacations seasons, showing their artificial importance, while von Mises continues steady thru the entire year.

 

Thanks for the words!

[oldhippy]

Truly amazing, so much nonsense crammed into one opening post.

>>> Libertarianism = Godwin, Kropotkin, Bakounin, ... (euh yes, there is also an American extreme rightwing bomb throwing version)

>>> Classic liberalism - throw around a few names, but forget the founder Adam Smith

>>> Mentioning Friedman (the neoliberal) when talking about classic liberalism

>>> And what has mentioning Marx have to do with all this?

 

Student eh?

 

[swfsql]

>> libertarians

I dont know the libertarian authors you've cited, but if you think they are important, would you like to translate essays or book chapters into Thai language?

You know that Trump has nothing to do with libertarianism, right? Ron Paul would be the one to be related - and he has been telling americans to abbandon this Roman-Empire-like behaviour of the US since 3 decades ago! He was urging americans to not "go on with the bombs" since day zero.

In other words, you're attacking a strawman and pretending you're attacking what I wrote without noticing it.

 

>> classic liberals

Adam Smith's theory is flawed and Marx built on top of it. It's important to, regarding economics, to start after Carl Menger with his correct subjective price theory. Of course studying Adamn Smith is good to know the history, but not to see REALITY.

Ricardo also have some flaws, but he's important to (in part) understand how the banking system collapses.

 

>> friedman

I only cited him in drug prohibitions matters, and in that way he is just as classic liberals as the others.

 

>> mentioning marx

I was replying Jingthing, comparing a "informal" author such as von Mises with an "academia" author, such as Karl Marx. Didn't you notice the object of the talk?

 

And there is nothing wrong to be a student.

Edited April 14, 2017 by swfsql
"Student eh?"

[oldhippy]

3 minutes ago, swfsql said:

>> libertarians

I dont know the libertarian authors you've cited, but if you think they are important, would you like to translate essays or book chapters into Thai language?

You know that Trump has nothing to do with libertarianism, right? Ron Paul would be the one to be related - and he has been telling americans to abbandon this Roman-Empire-like behaviour of the US since 3 decades ago! He was urging americans to not "go on with the bombs" since day zero.

In other words, you're attacking a strawman and pretending you're attacking what I wrote without noticing it.

 

>> classic liberals

Adam Smith's theory is flawed and Marx built on top of it. It's important to, regarding economics, to start after Carl Menger with his correct subjective price theory. Of course studying Adamn Smith is good to know the history, but not to see REALITY.

 

>> friedman

I only cited him in drug prohibitions matters, and in that way he is just as classic liberals as the others.

 

>> mentioning marx

I was replying Jingthing, comparing a "informal" author such as von Mises with an "academia" author, such as Karl Marx. Didn't you notice the object of the talk?

Trump? Did you mention Trump? Do you suggest that I am stupid enough to associate Trump with libertarians?

And if you have never heard of Bakounin, Godwin, Kropotkin, please do not embarrass yourself talking about libertarians. Sacco and Vanzetti perhaps ring a bell?

 

 

[CharlieH]

MOVED to the Pub.

[oldhippy]

3 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

MOVED to the Pub.

555 I think that the opening post was already written in the Pub.

 

[swfsql]

Yes I supposed you were referring to Trump. You weren't, of course.

Looks like you're still holding your three authors cards in your hands. Well, I have good news for you: you can learn libertarianism without them (at all). You can go straight to Murray Rothbard, Lysander Spooner and Hoppe if you're into anarchism and private property matters.

[Kwasaki]

9 hours ago, swfsql said:

I undestand that, Brazil is not so different form Thailand then

Ever been to Brasil ? very different to Thailand,  Thailand much safer for one. 

 

Thailand have army and police that pretty much let people do what they want so it's more or less doing libertarianism already so l'm not sure what your on about..

Edited April 15, 2017 by Kwasaki

[grollies]

''Hans-Hermman Hoppe also brings the democracy versus monarchy discussion...''

 

Good luck with that conversation on your next visit here.

[swfsql]

@Kwasaki yup, I live here! And the libertarian movement is growing fast over here - maybe because the government is that bad (for so long).

 

I agree, i tell my friends that I loved that thai police behaviour! people could ride motorcycles without helmets and sell food on the street without being bothered. In brazil the police actually follow the [shitty] rules, so poor brazilians often get scre**d.

 

The libertarianism, strictly speaking, would be about discussing who owns who and what. For one, if two persons are arguing, each one owns their own body. Otherwise the person couldnt possibly "do the arguing" itself. And if moral and ethics are in question (and those concepts must come from argumentations, not from anywhere else) then self-ownership is simply required for a moral society. That's Hoppe's argument in defence of self ownership.

 

This means that both the king and a president has no right to rule. @grollies but Hoppe still wrote a book saying why monarchy is better than democracy lol but he's an anarchist simply because its the only moral option.

Other implications are that people have the right to free speech, own guns, refuse government [shitty] public education and so on. All those (important) topics branches out of the self-ownership principle.

 

Other aspect of libertarianism are the economics deductions from authors such as von Mises. They show how a free-market economy is superior to any alternative, and how what we have nowadays (in every country that has central banking and public deficits) will lead to a monetary catastrophe, for exmaple.

 

I know that Siamese didn't know about those concepts, that they started knowing about it when the (second version of) first press (Bankgog Recorder) came along, when a patriotic, christian and american missionary was defending his own society values (while under civil war) when provocated by commenters.

 

And also nowadays, (I assume) there is no discussion about classical liberalism among thai people. There is only the socialist, the patriotic monarchysts and democrats (i think?).

Edited April 15, 2017 by swfsql
typo

[CharlieH]

Be VERY CAREFUL what you say and how you phrase things.

 

1) You will not express disrespect of the King of Thailand or any one member of the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution.

By law, the Thai Royal Family are above politics. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family.

To breach these rules may result in an immediate ban
 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, swfsql said:

I know that Siamese didn't know about those concepts,

One of the Siamese Kings is known as the farther of Siam in history and still to this day by the Thai people.

He was considered as the first King to bring the beginning of democracy to his Kingdom of that time.

Be careful what words you use in seek of answers.

[swfsql]

Im referring to the period ~1835. According to this essay[1], p. 30 (of english version), the siamese didn't have a citizenship concept.

 

About disrespect, I didn't mean any as far as I'm aware of. I never referred specifically to the king of thailand. When I said that, according to the Hoppe's argumentation ethics theory, "kings and presidents don't have the right to rule", that also doesn't implies disrespect of any sort. Well, Hoppe goes further, explaining that it's contradictory to think otherwise and therefore can't have a moral system built upon. I explained it shortly, but this[2] has a better explanation if you are interested in knowing about it.

 

Maybe this is an important difference between thai and brazilians, I suppose. Brazilians proudly curse their rulers all the time.

 

[1] https://www.academia.edu/12024207/The_Beginning_of_Liberalism_in_Thailand (english)

[1] https://www.academia.edu/19999411/The_Beginning_of_Liberalism_in_Thailand_Thai_ (thai)

[2] https://mises.org/library/reply-current-critiques-formulated-against-hoppe’s-argumentation-ethics

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, swfsql said:

Im referring to the period ~1835. According to this essay[1], p. 30 (of english version), the siamese didn't have a citizenship concept.

 

Meanwhile the current Rattanakosin era of Thailand’s history had began

with Rama the 1st ascending to the throne in 1782, he was born in the Kingdom of Ayutthaya, he had served King Taksin in wars against the Burmese Konbaung dynasty and helped him in the reunification of Siam.

 

During this time Rama the 1st emerged as Siam's most powerful military leader and took control of Siam crowning himself as the monarch after defeating a rebellion which had deposed King Taksin of Thonburi.

 

Establishing the Chakri Dynasty, which continues to rule Thailand to this day, King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke Rama the 1st was the founder and the first reigning monarch of the House of Chakri of Siam.

[BigKahuna]

On 15/04/2017 at 3:48 AM, swfsql said:

I undestand that, Brazil is not so different form Thailand then. This spread must naturally intend to reach students informally, out of the academia. Actually, in Brazil, people compare (in google trends) academia authors such as Karl Marx with von Mises, for example, and we can see that Marx's search rate is drastically reduced in holidays and vacations seasons, showing their artificial importance, while von Mises continues steady thru the entire year.

 

Thanks for the words!

99% wont know of Von Mises. Most countries are socialist dominated control freaks with all the associated brain washing.

[grollies]

From what I can gather,OP, from reading your posts, you'd spend your time better trying to spread liberalism in your home country.

[BigKahuna]

On 15/04/2017 at 3:34 AM, Jingthing said:

The culture here is deeply anti-intellectual, even in academia or perhaps especially there.

 

So good luck with that.

Yet they have more fun and freedom.

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

Yet they have more fun and freedom.

Tourist? 

[BigKahuna]

25 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Tourist? 

Are you???

[eldragon]

Let me save you some trouble: Thais don't read that much and are largely opposed to learning anything from foreigners.

 

Anyway, I'd say there's already a decent amount of liberty here. In fact, this place is a fairly good case study for libertarianism in action. People mostly do whatever they want until the law steps in, which isn't that often and typically accomplishes very little.

[BigKahuna]

1 minute ago, eldragon said:

Let me save you some trouble: Thais don't read that much and are largely opposed to learning anything from foreigners.

 

Anyway, I'd say there's already a decent amount of liberty here. In fact, this place is a fairly good case study for libertarianism in action. People mostly do whatever they want until the law steps in, which isn't that often and typically accomplishes very little.

Yes it is. It's the libertarianism that appeals.

[swfsql]

On 4/15/2017 at 8:42 AM, swfsql said:

I agree, i tell my friends that I loved that thai police behaviour! people could ride motorcycles without helmets and sell food on the street without being bothered. In brazil the police actually follow the [shitty] rules, so poor brazilians often get scre**d.

 

http://www.dw.com/en/bangkok-plans-to-ban-all-street-food-by-years-end/a-38458543

Nooooooooooooo

That's why liberalism matters. In that perspective, you see it as if they want to start a war against thai people who happend to be poor and are trying to peacefully leave poverty.

 

8 hours ago, eldragon said:

Let me save you some trouble: Thais don't read that much and are largely opposed to learning anything from foreigners.

 

Anyway, I'd say there's already a decent amount of liberty here. In fact, this place is a fairly good case study for libertarianism in action. People mostly do whatever they want until the law steps in, which isn't that often and typically accomplishes very little.

I agree, Thailand have much more economic freedom than Brazil, for one. But.. you know what happened in Phillipines, someone decided that drug users aren't human anymore and started murdering them. So I think that a stronger libertarian philosophy spread across people helps to prevent this sort of thing. (Please don't take US as an example lol they lost it after the secession failed)

Well.. there are also Thailand own stuff, just like any other country, such as central banking and so on. The more people there are that are against central banking, the better!

 

About not reading much, it's the same for brazilians. Thats why the austrians economists have this leading advantage, that they are very clear, simple and easy to read. The knowledge, as someone who started a "mises institute" in brazil said, should spread like fire (the more the people needs it).

Edited April 18, 2017 by swfsql

[swfsql]

Hello, so since then I brought the open source project - so more individuals from Thailand can get into that philosophy - a little closer to reality.

 

Some guys and gurls from Turkey got so amazed by that point of view that they started sharing it with classmates!

https://crowdin.com/project/ancap-ch - All translation will be very welcomed!

[badischer Barde]

I marvel at the lenience of Mr.Mod... and believe that "has no right to rule" might indeed be considered as criticism of monarchy, which is not a pet peeve of the mods but downright illegal in Thailand.

 

Another thing: In general I am all for discussing new ideas, philosophies and theories. But things like " a little closer to reality. " sounds not exactly like "an open mind", but much rather like religious zeal. And " got so amazed by that point of view that.. " has the air of homeshopping channels.

 

So yes... all we can expect here is a heated discussion of forms of "liberalism", which will probably go as well as the bargirls-flame-wars of 2014...

 

 

 

[isaanbanhou]

On 1/17/2018 at 2:17 PM, swfsql said:

Hello, so since then I brought the open source project - so more individuals from Thailand can get into that philosophy - a little closer to reality.

 

Some guys and gurls from Turkey got so amazed by that point of view that they started sharing it with classmates!

https://crowdin.com/project/ancap-ch - All translation will be very welcomed!

 

I would follow the ways of the Jehovah Witnesses if I were you.. Stand on the corner and pass your liberalism out in pamphlet form.   Just think how much you are going to change the world when your education is complete.  555