British police say 22, including children, killed in suicide attack at concert

[citybiker]

@sotsira

Thanks for posting that interview, interesting analysis.

I'm a huge fan of Nigel however even he knows in pragmatic terms the issue of tackling extremism is ongoing, yes much much more work still needed, especially within the relevant communities however the issue isn't being ignored.

The PC environment within the UK is beyond doubt very disappointing to put it mildly, however it's the political establishment need overall needs to get a grip.


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[alfieconn]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Expelled to where? This man, like others before him, was a British citizen, born here.

 

We live in a democracy under the rule of law. Suspects need to be watched, of course, but hard evidence is needed in order to arrest them and bring them to trial. If we start to ignore that, the terrorists have won.

 

Thatcher tried internment of suspected terrorists in the 1970s. That turned out well; not!

 

Maybe you think anyone of a certain religion is suspect and so should be rounded up and put into special camps until a final solution is found?

 

My father and his generation spent six years of their lives fighting a regime who believed that; he would turn in his grave if such a thing ever happened in the country he fought for.

 

 

So the Ex SAS guy has given his way of solving thing's of which you have disagreed with, so why don't you give your idea on the way to solve thing's ?

 

 

[7by7]

48 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

So the Ex SAS guy has given his way of solving thing's of which you have disagreed with, so why don't you give your idea on the way to solve thing's ?

 

Like another hero of the ignorant Stephen Yaxley (aka Tommy Robinson), Phil Campion is not averse to committing violence against women: Former SAS serviceman Phil Campion given restraining order after row with ex-girlfriend.

Quote

Roger Carne, defending Campion, said Ms Weit suffered no injuries in the incident but had “slight reddening at the top of her neck”.

 

Walt or not; members of the Army Rumour Service certainly have a very low opinion of him.

 

He is a rent a mouth with books to plug; books which need plugging as they quickly end up on the remainder shelves!

 

Unlike Campion, I make no claims to being a security or intelligence expert.

 

I will leave it to those who know what they are doing; and have had much success over the last 60 years of dealing with terrorist threats to the UK; threats from the IRA, INLA etc., and now from Islamic extremism.

 

Unfortunately, not 100% success; as the terrible event in Manchester shows.

 

I know that this evil will one day be defeated. But alienating the one community which can, and does, provide the most intelligence about the terrorists hiding in their midst will only push that day further away.

[alfieconn]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Like another hero of the ignorant Stephen Yaxley (aka Tommy Robinson), Phil Campion is not averse to committing violence against women: Former SAS serviceman Phil Campion given restraining order after row with ex-girlfriend.

 

Walt or not; members of the Army Rumour Service certainly have a very low opinion of him.

 

He is a rent a mouth with books to plug; books which need plugging as they quickly end up on the remainder shelves!

 

Unlike Campion, I make no claims to being a security or intelligence expert.

 

I will leave it to those who know what they are doing; and have had much success over the last 60 years of dealing with terrorist threats to the UK; threats from the IRA, INLA etc., and now from Islamic extremism.

 

Unfortunately, not 100% success; as the terrible event in Manchester shows.

 

I know that this evil will one day be defeated. But alienating the one community which can, and does, provide the most intelligence about the terrorists hiding in their midst will only push that day further away.

I can't really see what his private life has to do with anything but i suppose you had to respond with something even if it was completely off topic.

 

Anyway, i always love the people who knock other people's idea's without having one them self  !

[cmsally]

The problem seems to lie very largely with the issue of people being allowed to go and fight in Islamic wars and then come back again. Something has to be done about their freedom of movement. UK is becoming to seem like a rest stop for ME conflict. Unless this freedom of movement is stopped for the offenders then the problem will continue.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/manchester-libyan-connection-recruiting-ground-jihadists/

[7by7]

1 hour ago, alfieconn said:

I can't really see what his private life has to do with anything but i suppose you had to respond with something even if it was completely off topic.

It all comes down to Campion's credibility; of which he has none. Why Sky News chose to interview him is a mystery; particularly as it is obvious the low opinion the interviewer has of him and his opinions. I can only surmise that all the real experts were busy elsewhere at the time.

 

1 hour ago, alfieconn said:

Anyway, i always love the people who knock other people's idea's without having one them self  !

Unlike Campion, and it appears yourself, I do not pretend to possess knowledge or expertise which I do not have. 

[Richard W]

On 24/05/2017 at 3:02 PM, 7by7 said:

Expelled to where? This man, like others before him, was a British citizen, born here.

Has it been established that he was British?  Did he have a settled parent when he was born?

[alfieconn]

12 hours ago, 7by7 said:

It all comes down to Campion's credibility; of which he has none. Why Sky News chose to interview him is a mystery; particularly as it is obvious the low opinion the interviewer has of him and his opinions. I can only surmise that all the real experts were busy elsewhere at the time.

 

Unlike Campion, and it appears yourself, I do not pretend to possess knowledge or expertise which I do not have. 

When do you have to have credibility to be able to have an opinion ? you've been watching too many court room drama's 

 

But you have enough knowledge or expertise to decide that the people on the watch list be  deported etc idea  is a bad one ?  strange that !

Edited May 26, 2017 by alfieconn

[brewsterbudgen]

Has it been established that he was British?  Did he have a settled parent when he was born?

He had a British passport.

[7by7]

5 hours ago, alfieconn said:

When do you have to have credibility to be able to have an opinion ? you've been watching too many court room drama's

Everyone is entitled to an opinion; everyone 's opinion is subject to scrutiny and challenge.

 

You obviously find the opinion of a man who commits violence against his female partner and whose claims of heroics while in the armed forces, and since leaving, are openly mocked by serving and ex members of the same armed forces to be credible. I don't

 

5 hours ago, alfieconn said:

But you have enough knowledge or expertise to decide that the people on the watch list be  deported etc idea  is a bad one ?  strange that !

 

I do have enough knowledge of the UK's immigration and nationality laws to know that people who are British citizens by birth cannot be deported and cannot be stripped of their British nationality.

 

They can be extradited to another country to face trial, if the UK courts decides there is a case to answer.

 

(If you don't know the difference between deportation and extradition; Google is your friend.)

 

The rules are different for those who obtained their British citizenship through naturalisation. They can be stripped of their British citizenship and deported if convicted of a serious crime; and terrorism is certainly such. But not if so doing will leave them stateless.

 

Whilst Home Secretary, May introduced a policy of stripping naturalised British citizens who were abroad and suspected of terrorism or similar of their citizenship, thus denying them reentry to the UK. A case in the European Court of Human Rights recently determined that this is legal: UK can strip terror suspects of citizenship, European judges rule

 

9 hours ago, Richard W said:

Has it been established that he was British?  Did he have a settled parent when he was born?

As brewsterbudgen says; he had a British passport.

 

We only have media reports to go on; and they suggest that he was British due to being born in the UK to settled parents. Whether he also had Libyan nationality has not been mentioned in any of the reports I have seen.

 

[alfieconn]

40 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion; everyone 's opinion is subject to scrutiny and challenge.

 

You obviously find the opinion of a man who commits violence against his female partner and whose claims of heroics while in the armed forces, and since leaving, are openly mocked by serving and ex members of the same armed forces to be credible. I don't

 

 

I do have enough knowledge of the UK's immigration and nationality laws to know that people who are British citizens by birth cannot be deported and cannot be stripped of their British nationality.

 

They can be extradited to another country to face trial, if the UK courts decides there is a case to answer.

 

(If you don't know the difference between deportation and extradition; Google is your friend.)

 

The rules are different for those who obtained their British citizenship through naturalisation. They can be stripped of their British citizenship and deported if convicted of a serious crime; and terrorism is certainly such. But not if so doing will leave them stateless.

 

Whilst Home Secretary, May introduced a policy of stripping naturalised British citizens who were abroad and suspected of terrorism or similar of their citizenship, thus denying them reentry to the UK. A case in the European Court of Human Rights recently determined that this is legal: UK can strip terror suspects of citizenship, European judges rule

 

As brewsterbudgen says; he had a British passport.

 

We only have media reports to go on; and they suggest that he was British due to being born in the UK to settled parents. Whether he also had Libyan nationality has not been mentioned in any of the reports I have seen.

 

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "credible" and that after saying to another poster

Quote

Perhaps English isn't your first language? 

 if someone gives evidence in court  the  prosecution could claim the evidence not to be creditable due to the witness's past history ,  you could say i don't respect his opinion due to his private life but you wouldn't say it is not credible !!!

 

If you had read my post correctly i did say 

Quote

deported etc

 

Etc, meaning imprisoned  and we know the laws at the moment prohibit this but what people are saying are that the laws should be changed !

Edited May 26, 2017 by alfieconn

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

You obviously don't know the difference between fact and opinion and that after saying to another poster

As I have only been talking about opinions when it comes to Campion; how do you reach that conclusion?

 

7 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

if someone gives evidence in court  the  prosecution could claim the evidence not to be creditable due to the witness's past history ,  you could say i don't respect his opinion due to his private life but you wouldn't say it is not credible !!!

You have contradicted yourself here. Either someone's past makes them credible, or it doesn't!

 

It is Campion's many self aggrandising claims in his books, claims openly mocked by serving and ex members of the armed forces, which blow his credibility away.

 

7 minutes ago, alfieconn said:

If you had read my post correctly i did say 

Quote

deported etc

 

Etc, meaning imprisoned 

 

Then why not say imprisoned?

 

You specifically mentioned deported. If you want answers about imprisonment, ask about that, not deportation etc.!

 

People on the watch list are arrested, charged and if found guilty imprisoned; a very recent example London men charged over alleged terror plot

[alfieconn]

30 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As I have only been talking about opinions when it comes to Campion; how do you reach that conclusion?

 

You have contradicted yourself here. Either someone's past makes them credible, or it doesn't!

 

It is Campion's many self aggrandising claims in his books, claims openly mocked by serving and ex members of the armed forces, which blow his credibility away.

 

 

Then why not say imprisoned?

 

You specifically mentioned deported. If you want answers about imprisonment, ask about that, not deportation etc.!

 

People on the watch list are arrested, charged and if found guilty imprisoned; a very recent example London men charged over alleged terror plot

Not in the meaning of opinion it doesn't.

 

Ok just for you, the defintion of credible : 

 

Similar to words like reliable and plausible, credible is an adjective that comes to us from the Latin credibilis, meaning “worthy to be believed.”

 

 

 

[Andaman Al]

This hits the sweetspot! I can't say I disagree with anything she says. I just looked at the released photo's of all the dead. Many many young beautiful girls, dead and many more of the same now horribly disfigured and scarred for life. If Governments don't do something, the people will  and this lady will be happy to whip them up into fighting mood.

 

Delivered with feeling and emotion!!

 

[evadgib]

A cautionary note from HMG re charitable donations:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/generous-public-should-make-sure-donations-go-to-genuine-charities-supporting-the-victims-in-manchester-says-charity-regulator

[7by7]

8 hours ago, alfieconn said:

Not in the meaning of opinion it doesn't.

 

Ok just for you, the defintion of credible : 

 

Similar to words like reliable and plausible, credible is an adjective that comes to us from the Latin credibilis, meaning “worthy to be believed.”

None of which, according to members of ARRSE, apply to the walt Campion!

[Richard W]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I do have enough knowledge of the UK's immigration and nationality laws to know that people who are British citizens by birth cannot be deported and cannot be stripped of their British nationality.

Come now, it was you who pointed out to me that citizens born British can be stripped of British nationality.  However, it seems that the bomber's father had involuntarily lost Libyan nationality by the time the bomber was born.  Proving the bomber had acquired Libyan nationality might have been difficult.   If the bomber was not born British, it is very likely that he would have been registered as a child, as opposed to naturalised, and therefore as safe in law as if he had been born British.

 

I have a feeling that there is now a policy that those born British will not be deprived of British nationality, but I can't find a source for it, so I may have imagined it.  There is no mention of it in Chapter 55 of the UK Visas and Immigration nationality instructions.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Richard W said:

<snip>

 

I have a feeling that there is now a policy that those born British will not be deprived of British nationality, but I can't find a source for it, so I may have imagined it.  There is no mention of it in Chapter 55 of the UK Visas and Immigration nationality instructions.

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06820

[Richard W]

12 hours ago, Richard W said:

I have a feeling that there is now a policy that those born British will not be deprived of British nationality, but I can't find a source for it, so I may have imagined it.  There is no mention of it in Chapter 55 of the UK Visas and Immigration nationality instructions.

 

11 hours ago, simple1 said:

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06820

Nor there, though that briefing might not be recent enough to include it.  If there is such a policy, it might simply be as the executive's right(?) to be arbitrarily clement.

The declared policy in the nationality instructions does seem to make the British nationality of the delinquent British-Thai dual nationals who live(d) up the road from us safe  for now.