Are Foreigners Really Welcome ?

[tropo]

In 34 years of being here; I 100% believe that Foreigners from any Country or Continent are not welcome….to stay long term.

The old saying of “leave your money on the table at Flight Arrivals then please go back to your County” is quite correct.

Thais are very xenophobic (especially the Western Educated ones…that I have met)…

I believe the British Government once said of “Siam”…...We Will not invade as they have nothing of use, and the people are too lackluster” ( I may be slightly wrong but something very similar to that)

I felt that after living here less than a year. It's interesting to hear it from someone that has lived here so long.

I've noticed that many long stayers on this board seem to resent border runners and Tourists. Whenever someone makes a "complaint" about the new regulations, or about Thailand in general they are told they are welcome to leave and good riddance.

[tropo]

You are a guest of the country and unfortunately you have to live by their ever changing rules.

This is very true , however, having been Guest to many other Countries in the past (even 3rd world countries- that were more straight forward) the OP made very valid points. " Having to live by their ever changing rules ".....i agree, but that really depends what rules they implemented....at the moment things aren't too bad , but they could be a lot better too.

Hopefully they become more "foreignerfriendly"in terms of Immigration/long term Visa Rules ....i certainly spend far less Money now here and don't intend to bring any in here until they know what they are doing ,which isn't the case now and wasn't the case during the last Government .

The fact that this forum exists says it all. How many countries operate a forum aimed (and named) at deciphering visa rules?

There is over 1 million posts on here alreay and still "nobody knows nothin'".

Edited December 26, 2006 by tropo

[tropo]

Thankfully so far Thai government is incredibly adept at preventing investment confidence and prosperity for the masses.

And despite the Thai givernment doing everthing possible to prevent "investment confidence" people flock to Thailand to do just that. Go figure.

[Grover]

If you don't play by the new rules of the house, you will be considered an unwelcome guest until your time runs out.

No use kicking and screaming like a cry baby, you may be the boss of your own little world but you are not the boss of your hosts.

[camerata]

as far as PR is concerned my impression was that one has to do each and everything personally.

No, just your personal stuff and visits to your embassy. The lawyer can go to the MOFA for you.

by the way, my wife and me are on a retiree visa, i.e. no employer who might provide any necessary paperwork.

There is no application category for retirees now. You have to fit into one of the categories here:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/do...tion4extend.doc

[thai_narak]

camerata,

The one thing that I hate the most with the PR is that you lose it when you go out of Thailand in the case of just forgeting to inform the immigration (1 year endoresement?) before leaving the Kingdom. If not for such rule, I would definitely go for a PR. Imagine paying more than 100,000 Baht and then just losing it one time? I would rather pay 5,000 Baht for a Non-O for 20 years (if I have to live 20 years more). My calculation did not include re-entry for the PR in 20 years (78,000 Baht).

[camerata]

camerata,

The one thing that I hate the most with the PR is that you lose it when you go out of Thailand in the case of just forgeting to inform the immigration (1 year endoresement?) before leaving the Kingdom. If not for such rule, I would definitely go for a PR. Imagine paying more than 100,000 Baht and then just losing it one time?

I agree it's a bit harsh, but how difficult is it to remember to get a re-entry once a year if you go out of the country? I feel more secure with PR than without it, when I would have to leave the country within 7 days if I lost my job or retired.

[jumbo]

camerata,

The one thing that I hate the most with the PR is that you lose it when you go out of Thailand in the case of just forgeting to inform the immigration (1 year endoresement?) before leaving the Kingdom. If not for such rule, I would definitely go for a PR. Imagine paying more than 100,000 Baht and then just losing it one time?

I agree it's a bit harsh, but how difficult is it to remember to get a re-entry once a year if you go out of the country? I feel more secure with PR than without it, when I would have to leave the country within 7 days if I lost my job or retired.

I agree with Camerata on most points, the benefits of PR are purely subjective to ones use of it.

One thing I am not sure of is that you lose the PR when you leave without informing immigration, they way I read it is when you not return after doing so within a year....it says nothing about not having/forgetting the endorsement........????

""The foreign national, who has a permanent residence certificate, wishes to leave the Kingdom with intention to return, shall present his Residence Certificate to the competent official for endorsement of departure. He/She shall return to the Kingdom within one year from the date of endorsement. Failure to return to the Kingdom in reference to the time prescribed, shall result in the expiration of the Residence Certificate"""

J

[keenok]

camerata,

The one thing that I hate the most with the PR is that you lose it when you go out of Thailand in the case of just forgeting to inform the immigration (1 year endoresement?) before leaving the Kingdom. If not for such rule, I would definitely go for a PR. Imagine paying more than 100,000 Baht and then just losing it one time?

I agree it's a bit harsh, but how difficult is it to remember to get a re-entry once a year if you go out of the country? I feel more secure with PR than without it, when I would have to leave the country within 7 days if I lost my job or retired.

to say you would have 7 days to leave is a bit dramatic.that maybe the case ,but then you could come back in on tourist or non imm o. you qualified before for pr , so presumably you still qualify for a non im o or b.the loss of close to 100,000 baht(if married) or close to 200,000 would be the serious point of forgetting to get a re entry permit in my opinion

[thai_narak]

One more thing, even with PR a foreigner cannot still own a piece of land eventhough married with Thai. It would be a breakthrough and will definitely reasonable to get a PR if one whose married with Thai and with PR would be able to buy a residential lot. What I can think of about PR until now is that, the immigration get your money one time in big amount and in return saves you a hassle for border run. End of story.

Edited December 27, 2006 by thai_narak

[jumbo]

One more thing, even with PR a foreigner cannot still own a piece of land eventhough married with Thai. It would be a breakthrough and will definitely reasonable to get a PR if one whose married with Thai and with PR would be able to buy a residential lot. What I can think of about PR until now is that, the immigration get your money one time in big amount and in return saves you a hassle for boarder run. End of story.

So can you show us where you read this information about not being able to own land??

I am sure you can be written in, in minority, in the tabien baan book

And if you are partner in a company the company can own land to 'exploit' as in farming etc

This is currently done by a friend of mine

Yes it saves the hassle of the border run and these runs are going to be over one of these days plus you do need to apply for non'o' visum when you are married or retired

J

[sbk]

camerata,

The one thing that I hate the most with the PR is that you lose it when you go out of Thailand in the case of just forgeting to inform the immigration (1 year endoresement?) before leaving the Kingdom. If not for such rule, I would definitely go for a PR. Imagine paying more than 100,000 Baht and then just losing it one time?

I agree it's a bit harsh, but how difficult is it to remember to get a re-entry once a year if you go out of the country? I feel more secure with PR than without it, when I would have to leave the country within 7 days if I lost my job or retired.

to say you would have 7 days to leave is a bit dramatic.that maybe the case ,but then you could come back in on tourist or non imm o. you qualified before for pr , so presumably you still qualify for a non im o or b.the loss of close to 100,000 baht(if married) or close to 200,000 would be the serious point of forgetting to get a re entry permit in my opinion

I believe the same rule applies if your spouse dies and you are on a one year extension because of marriage to a Thai national. You might be able to hang around long enough for the funeral but imagine having to do a visa run at a time like that?

I am sure you can be written in, in minority, in the tabien baan book

And if you are partner in a company the company can own land to 'exploit' as in farming etc

This is currently done by a friend of mine

Please show us where it is said you can own land. I have never heard of such a thing myself but would be interested to see proof that it were possible with PR.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Thankfully so far Thai government is incredibly adept at preventing investment confidence and prosperity for the masses.

And despite the Thai givernment doing everthing possible to prevent "investment confidence" people flock to Thailand to do just that. Go figure.

its still relatively a very cheap country because the real money isn't coming in. I am keeping my fingers crossed it stays that way for a while.

[thai_narak]

One more thing, even with PR a foreigner cannot still own a piece of land eventhough married with Thai. It would be a breakthrough and will definitely reasonable to get a PR if one whose married with Thai and with PR would be able to buy a residential lot. What I can think of about PR until now is that, the immigration get your money one time in big amount and in return saves you a hassle for boarder run. End of story.

So can you show us where you read this information about not being able to own land??

I am sure you can be written in, in minority, in the tabien baan book

And if you are partner in a company the company can own land to 'exploit' as in farming etc

This is currently done by a friend of mine

Yes it saves the hassle of the border run and these runs are going to be over one of these days plus you do need to apply for non'o' visum when you are married or retired

J

Your name can be written in tabien baan if you have a PR but you can never be the owner of a land in Thailand if you are a foreigner. The thing about setting up a company to own a land is not completely legal and may be scrutinized soon.

[camerata]

to say you would have 7 days to leave is a bit dramatic.that maybe the case ,but then you could come back in on tourist or non imm o. you qualified before for pr , so presumably you still qualify for a non im o or b.

It's not that simple, really. I was on a non-imm B, had many years continuous residence in Thailand and always intended to go for PR some day. If I had lost my job, there goes my 10 years' continuous residence and the 3-year mandatory residence for PR. Getting another B visa with no sponsor sounds difficult now. I might have ended up on tourist visas for months or even years while looking for a new job. Regarding PR, I would have had to start from scratch.

As for retirement, I don't have any Thai family to support and I don't have any income or pension from overseas so it would have been difficult to apply for a retirement visa. This in fact was a major concern. After 20 years in Thailand, paying Thai taxes, I didn't want to get kicked out because I didn't qualify for a retirement visa. Sure, I could put 800K in the bank but I couldn't replace it at the rate of 65k a month. None of that matters now I have PR. After I retire I'll be living on meagre savings but no one will care. I believe this is one reason why the salary requirement for PR is as high as it is. How much can a guy earning 30K a month save for retirement? How will he provide for himself and his family after retirement?

[camerata]

How does an under 50 not working non married to a Thai even get on the PR ladder tho ??

I would put the effort for PR in, but I am not married and will not work again hopefully. I am 33 and so a long long way from the retirement age.

You don't have many options other than apply in the investment category - which really sounds like a hassle.

[thai_narak]

to say you would have 7 days to leave is a bit dramatic.that maybe the case ,but then you could come back in on tourist or non imm o. you qualified before for pr , so presumably you still qualify for a non im o or b.

It's not that simple, really. I was on a non-imm B, had many years continuous residence in Thailand and always intended to go for PR some day. If I had lost my job, there goes my 10 years' continuous residence and the 3-year mandatory residence for PR. Getting another B visa with no sponsor sounds difficult now. I might have ended up on tourist visas for months or even years while looking for a new job. Regarding PR, I would have had to start from scratch.

As for retirement, I don't have any Thai family to support and I don't have any income or pension from overseas so it would have been difficult to apply for a retirement visa. This in fact was a major concern. After 20 years in Thailand, paying Thai taxes, I didn't want to get kicked out because I didn't qualify for a retirement visa. Sure, I could put 800K in the bank but I couldn't replace it at the rate of 65k a month. None of that matters now I have PR. After I retire I'll be living on meagre savings but no one will care. I believe this is one reason why the salary requirement for PR is as high as it is. How much can a guy earning 30K a month save for retirement? How will he provide for himself and his family after retirement?

Seems like the PR perfectly fits your situation but not not for a guy like me whereas I'm married and under 50 y/o. The funny thing is, I cannot even apply for a PR now since I do not work in Thailand at the moment. To be able to apply for a PR for the reason of supporting Thai family still need to have a work permit. It doesn't make sense to me since I work in another country and earning much mcuh more than if working in Thailand.

Edited December 27, 2006 by thai_narak

[jumbo]

I am sure you can be written in, in minority, in the tabien baan book

And if you are partner in a company the company can own land to 'exploit' as in farming etc

This is currently done by a friend of mine

Please show us where it is said you can own land. I have never heard of such a thing myself but would be interested to see proof that it were possible with PR.

Ilyushin pasted a text in 'benefits of permanent residency' which included this part

If you successfully obtain a PRP, you:-

Can buy a Condominium without proving the money came from abroad.

Can have your name included on property ownership papers.

Can obtain a 'work-permit' more easily (but you still need one!).

Improve your chance of obtaining a mortgage.

Can later apply for Citizenship.

Property ownership papers are not realy defining land and or condo's

Wouldnot know where I read it that's why I didnot write that

Thai Narak,

Yes if you do not have a permanent residency I agree, the thing is that if you have PR you are also entitled (even encouraged) to invest....

J

[camerata]

Your name can be written in tabien baan if you have a PR but you can never be the owner of a land in Thailand if you are a foreigner.

Actually, you must be on a tabien baan once you have PR. It's the final step in the process.

[friend2]

What is the benefit of living here, other than the nice

weather,cheap food and perhaps your tilak ?

Not much.

Why would you expect there to be some benefit in living here? Thailand is not a country that has a policy to encourage

immigration like, say, Canada or Australia. This is a point a lot of westerners miss. Thailand's situation is more like

Japan's - it doesn't particularly want immigrants but it needs some foreigners to do specific jobs.

I never expected there to be a benifit moving here. I'm just pointing out

that giving us foreigners a visa, wouldn't neccessarily cost the government anything in terms

of having to provide for us.

You saying: "it doesn't particulary want immigrants" I think says it all.

Even if I became a Thai citizen, I wouldn't get a pension, no subsidised hospital care, or any other benifit.

Why would you expect to get more benefits than a Thai? Would you trust a Thai pension fund? You could at least

get 30 baht medical care. My company offers a provident fund.

Basically same as I stated above, i'm not expecting any benefits.

However, if I got the 30 baht medical care, I'd definitively feel more as part of society,

living on equal terms as all the other taxpayers.

Offcourse i'd never use it.

AIA is slightly better for my taste.

I've been making a 1 year visa to stay here now for over 13 years !!

And i'm still required to continue with this paper shuffling sharade.

It's impossible for me to plan ahead, and god forbid if something would happen to my wife.

Then I wouldn't qualify anymore for the type of visa I have, and will be shown the door.

This is the reason most people apply for permanent residence.

That is true.

I just think the bar is set to high, faar to high !

I would be automatically disqualified as i'm not paying taxes in the 80.000-100.0000 salary/month

range.

Where i'm living, (not in a big city), finding a job that pays that kinda wages is unheard of.

As a matter of fact, I am totally confident nobody here, (Thai or westerner) makes even half

of what's required

In theory I could apply for residency here, but I think it's a waste of time and money

(around 100.000 baht if you're married).

Not to mention the obscene and ridiculous amount of paperwork you need to produce + taxes.

It doesn't give me anything new that I don't already have with a 1 year visa, I have found out.

Incorrect. Among other things (such as the right to apply for citizenship) it will give you the right to

stay in Thailand forever, with or without a job, income or wife. PR would solve your problems and you'd have a good

chance of getting it, yet you say it's a waste of time. Sure, it's not citizenship, but it's not meant to be!

Hmm, that was actually some news for me.

Ok, so now I want it.

OOps forgot !, i'm not gonna qualify.

Now I feel much better...

Mostly bothersome is you can't choose occupation,Like they are afraid of a big influx of westerners taking

6000 baht/month wagers !

It doesn't make sense, nor is it the real reason for the rules.

The laws aren't made solely for westerners. There could easily be an influx of Indians or mainland Chinese looking for

low-wage jobs.

Yes, that is true.

Still, the minimum wages were forced to pay taxes on, doesn't reflect reality.

There's only a limited number of people who would ever be able to get these jobs,

and you can almost forget it totally, if you live on the countryside.

The reality is, out of Bangkok and other city centers, there's no such jobs to be found

When I asked about this at the immigration, the answer was: "it's to ensure you can take care of your family"

Ya, right.

I then asked how much do you make per month ? (the immigration officer)

He replied: about 20.000 baht (probably not including kick backs)

Isn't that enough to support your family I asked ?

Reply: silence

Conclusion, it's not fair, you know it, they know it.

I thought you said you acted like a Thai when you were at Immigration? You'll never get anywhere arguing with

Immigration officers.

I never took that discussion any further.

Offcourse arguing with them is like running in the special olympics.

Even if you win, you're still retarded !

What i'm trying to say here is, if you can't integrate into Thai society (no matter how long you stay),

abiding by the same rules as they do, you'll encounter problems in the long run.

So there should be a different set of rules for foreigners? But isn't that what you're complaining about? Why wouldn't

you want to integrate into Thai society? None of us can do it completely, but life is much easier if we try.

Abiding by the same rules means we should be treated equally.

I never said we should be treated with different rules

None of the immigration laws here are tailored to help long staying foreigners become citizens, it's

Thailand has never said it wants immigrants. It's a lot different from countries that do. But it isn't that

difficult to get PR, which gives you the right to stay forever. Would you want to become a Thai citizen? I don't think

I would.

I think it's to difficult, bordering on ridiculous.

I'd have no problems at all getting double citizenry if allowed

I have access to none of the benefits my wife had in "My country".

Seriously... where does it say that all countries in the world must offer equal benefits? Countries are different.

Since 80% of Thais are agricultural workers, relatively few people in Thailand pay income tax, so there isn't enough

revenue for the government to provide pensions. Even the national health scheme couldn't be adequately financed.

Just pointing out that Thais are much better treated in my country.

I don't think it's to much to ask for to be treated with decency, as a return favour,

considering the fact that most Thais coming to my country are a big burden

on our taxpayers

So why not apply for residency then you might ask ?

No way, with the rules and regulations they setup.

I'm feeling i'm paying enough as it is today thankyou.

You seem to have set up a convenient excuse for not doing anything. PR would solve your immediate problems but you'd

prefer to complain about Thailand than give it a shot. Well, your choice. As long as you have a victim mentality you'll

never be happy in Thailand. I've been there myself, but I got over it with some positive thinking.

My thinking is always up for review

[camerata]

I just think the bar is set to high, faar to high !

I would be automatically disqualified as i'm not paying taxes in the 80.000-100.0000 salary/month

range.

I agree the bar seems a bit too high salary-wise but you are not automatically disqualified if you don't earn 80,000 baht. According to my lawyer, they'll accept an application with lower salary depending on other factors. If you are married and have been on 1-year visas for 13 years you might have a chance.

[thai_narak]

camerata,

I'm posting not to argue with you but can you please give answer to my question?

Am I entitled to apply for a PR?

Here is my situation:

- married with Thai and under 50.

- marriage is registered in Thailand.

- have thai son.

- currently on NON-O.

- all property with wife amounting to more than 4M baht (my condo, our house, shophouse, and cars).

- wife have own business, well educated.

- NOT WORKING IN THAILAND.

- my job is specialist in my field.

- used to work in Thailand for more than 8 years (NON-B ) as specialist.

- salary overseas of more than 200K a month.

- no criminal record.

If you notice that "not working in Thailand" is in BOLD or caps this means that I do not have a work permit.

Edited December 27, 2006 by thai_narak

[camerata]

camerata,

I'm posting not to argue with you but can you please give answer to my question?

Am I entitled to apply for a PR?

I think you'd be able to apply in the "Humanitarian" category for support of your son, but I don't know anything about that category. Frankly, I can't see them knocking back someone who earns 200K a month if the income can be verified. If I were you I'd talk to Sunbelt about it or have your wife call up and ask Immigration directly.

[thai_narak]

camerata,

I'm posting not to argue with you but can you please give answer to my question?

Am I entitled to apply for a PR?

I think you'd be able to apply in the "Humanitarian" category for support of your son, but I don't know anything about that category. Frankly, I can't see them knocking back someone who earns 200K a month if the income can be verified. If I were you I'd talk to Sunbelt about it or have your wife call up and ask Immigration directly.

Sad part, my wife asked the immigration about 4 years ago and they told her that without work permit it is not possible to apply. Why should a foreigner who wishes to have PR is required to work in thailand for the salary that is so high that not many company can afford? OK... I will keep quite now.

many thanks...

Edited December 27, 2006 by thai_narak

[jumbo]

camerata,

I'm posting not to argue with you but can you please give answer to my question?

Am I entitled to apply for a PR?

I think you'd be able to apply in the "Humanitarian" category for support of your son, but I don't know anything about that category. Frankly, I can't see them knocking back someone who earns 200K a month if the income can be verified. If I were you I'd talk to Sunbelt about it or have your wife call up and ask Immigration directly.

Sad part, my wife asked the immigration about 4 years ago and they told her that without work permit it is not possible to apply. Why should a foreigner who wishes to have PR is required to work in thailand for the salary that is so high that not many company can afford? OK... I will keep quite now.

many thanks...

take a look at this site

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php

you should be able to qualify

J

[tartempion]

Friend2,

You are absolutely correct.

Nothing more to add.

[LivinLOS]

How does an under 50 not working non married to a Thai even get on the PR ladder tho ??

I would put the effort for PR in, but I am not married and will not work again hopefully. I am 33 and so a long long way from the retirement age.

You don't have many options other than apply in the investment category - which really sounds like a hassle.

There is no investment category any longer.. Stopped hasnt it ??

I have actually been here on non imm O's or B's for more than 3 years.. But never been able to get extensions on those just visa running every 90 days.

So thats multiple different visa's over the years not extending in country.. I presume from that theres not a hope in hel_l of even starting the process ??