How can I block my own property from being fraudulently transfered?

[3421abc]

I would like to block or put a lien on my own condo so it is not so easy to transfer it fraudulently.

 

Why I want to do this? Just found out someone tried to transfer out of my name without my knowledge.

 

So now I have to protect my property.

Is it possible to block my property either through a lien (sign the condo as colateral and put a family member as lien holder) or is there another more efective way?

[shady86]

You bought with cash? If you hold the ownership paper, not so easy to transfer as owner needs to be in land office or all documents need to be faked.

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[kannot]

or "someone" at the land dept can be bought..............which happens  more often than you might imagine............accepting fake signatures n all......2000 baht to  jump the queue in our local land office..............all "unofficial" of  course

[fatdrunkandstupid]

Get a life usufruct stamped on the back of your chanote in the name of your younger brother/sister/ etc...

[catman20]

go to the land office, put a friends name on the chanote saying he owes you 50.000 baht should anyone try to sell your property the land office will get in touch with your friend to repay him the 50,000 then you will know somethings not right before its too late. thats the way you can do with a house.

[lucjoker]

Never leave company stamp nor any other original paper with your lawyer. 

Hide them even from wife or girlfriend. 

Never give copy of chanout to anyone. 

 

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

You can get a family member to register a small bond over the property or a longterm lease or a usufruct. 

[catman20]

1 minute ago, SOUTHERNSTAR said:

You can get a family member to register a small bond over the property or a longterm lease or a usufruct. 

go to the land office, put a friends name on the chanote saying he owes you 50.000 baht should anyone try to sell your property the land office will get in touch with your friend to repay him the 50,000 then you will know somethings not right before its too late. thats the way you can do with a house.

[geriatrickid]

Too many dangerous and  poorly thought out "strategies".

- Putting someone else's name on a property to secure a non existent 50,000 baht loan, just means that should the person die, that person's estate will expect 50,000 baht.  If you die, no one will be around to say it's fake and the estate will have to pay it off.

- Putting anyone else's name or reserve on the  title will just delay a transfer if there is a dispute with that person.

- If one is concerned that one's legal counsel is not trustworthy, then use a different lawyer. You get what you pay for. Too many foreigners pick low end dishonest shysters like that fake lawyer on the lam from Pattaya because they wanted to save money.

 

-Start with making sure that your own  land title is in order and properly documented.

There should have been a thorough title search done when the property was first purchased.

- A lien  can be a negative held against a person as it is used to protect the right of recovery  in a dispute. It is not appropriate 

- If one is truly concerned, a demand mortgage can be registered held by one's estate, shown as an arm length's entity. The mortgage balance is held and documented away from the land title.  This can also be used to protect against loss of assets in the event of a divorce. The mortgage holder must be paid off from proceeds of a sale before  the transfer can occur.

 

 

 

 

[Gracas]

OP I know this is none of our business, but I would like to know how this transpired, how someone could try and transfer your condo out of your name.

Most people would assume that their ownership was "safe", but this would appear not to be the case.

Was it someone you knew, maybe a Lawyer or an unknown that just targeted you?

How did you find out?

[trogers]

1 minute ago, Gracas said:

OP I know this is none of our business, but I would like to know how this transpired, how someone could try and transfer your condo out of your name.

Most people would assume that their ownership was "safe", but this would appear not to be the case.

Was it someone you knew, maybe a Lawyer or an unknown that just targeted you?

How did you find out?

I suspect the said property is bought under a 'Thai-owned' company...

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

Too many dangerous and  poorly thought out "strategies".

- Putting someone else's name on a property to secure a non existent 50,000 baht loan, just means that should the person die, that person's estate will expect 50,000 baht.  If you die, no one will be around to say it's fake and the estate will have to pay it off.

 

So? 50kB seems like a small price to pay to ensure that your multi-million Baht property cant be transferred from under you. And if 50kB is a big deal, perhaps make the loan 20kB or 5kB?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

- If one is concerned that one's legal counsel is not trustworthy, then use a different lawyer. You get what you pay for. Too many foreigners pick low end dishonest shysters like that fake lawyer on the lam from Pattaya because they wanted to save money.

 

I wouldn't trust any lawyer in Thailand and there's no way of knowing if you have chosen a good one or a bad one until the job is finished by which time it is too late. Price is certainly not any indication as the dishonest ones can be the most expensive.

 

I think that the lawyer-on-the-lam attracted clients mostly because he is a native English-speaker.

[KittenKong]

56 minutes ago, trogers said:

I suspect the said property is bought under a 'Thai-owned' company...

 

The OP doesnt say either way but that is certainly a possibility. There's no doubt that it is easier to fraudulently transfer the ownership of a company than the ownership of a condo. Not least because companies here will normally already be less than 50% in a farang's own name anyway.

[Confuscious]

Not quite the same as Condo, but showing that EVERYTHING is possible in Thailand.
A few years ago, went on a holiday trip to Bali.

I had booked the same trip for my wife, but at the last moment my wife said she could not join me because she had a very important meeting.
A few weeks after my return from Bali, I was checking the mail and in the mail was a bankletter to my wife, stamped with "URGENT".
I opened the letter and found a loan approval (1,500,000 baht) and the documents for that loan approval included several documents to which my wife had no access.
My bank account in foreign currency holding 800,000 baht, my foreign bank account holding a substancial amount of money, my car (which was on my name), my foreign credit card, etc.
I went immediately to the tourist police and, after they confirmed that that was illegal, a tourist police officer went with me to the bank to cancel all these documents which were used in an unlawful way.
The bank director asked for excuses as it was not he who approved the loan and cancelled the loan immediately.

Nobody can sell your Condo in Thailand?
Think twice.

[bazza73]

3 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not quite the same as Condo, but showing that EVERYTHING is possible in Thailand.
A few years ago, went on a holiday trip to Bali.

I had booked the same trip for my wife, but at the last moment my wife said she could not join me because she had a very important meeting.
A few weeks after my return from Bali, I was checking the mail and in the mail was a bankletter to my wife, stamped with "URGENT".
I opened the letter and found a loan approval (1,500,000 baht) and the documents for that loan approval included several documents to which my wife had no access.
My bank account in foreign currency holding 800,000 baht, my foreign bank account holding a substancial amount of money, my car (which was on my name), my foreign credit card, etc.
I went immediately to the tourist police and, after they confirmed that that was illegal, a tourist police officer went with me to the bank to cancel all these documents which were used in an unlawful way.
The bank director asked for excuses as it was not he who approved the loan and cancelled the loan immediately.

Nobody can sell your Condo in Thailand?
Think twice.

Every time I go back to Australia, I take all my Thai bank books with me.

Two reasons: Verification of balances with Centrelink. I don't want anyone to get their hands on them while I am not in Thailand.

Is your wife still around? I would have booted her out very smartly for a breach of trust like that.

[trogers]

6 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not quite the same as Condo, but showing that EVERYTHING is possible in Thailand.
A few years ago, went on a holiday trip to Bali.

I had booked the same trip for my wife, but at the last moment my wife said she could not join me because she had a very important meeting.
A few weeks after my return from Bali, I was checking the mail and in the mail was a bankletter to my wife, stamped with "URGENT".
I opened the letter and found a loan approval (1,500,000 baht) and the documents for that loan approval included several documents to which my wife had no access.
My bank account in foreign currency holding 800,000 baht, my foreign bank account holding a substancial amount of money, my car (which was on my name), my foreign credit card, etc.
I went immediately to the tourist police and, after they confirmed that that was illegal, a tourist police officer went with me to the bank to cancel all these documents which were used in an unlawful way.
The bank director asked for excuses as it was not he who approved the loan and cancelled the loan immediately.

Nobody can sell your Condo in Thailand?
Think twice.

Shows that who you choose as a life partner is the life you would lead.

 

You harvest what you plant...

Gal 6:7

[bazza73]

Sigh.... renters don't have these problems. Drum roll and cue the property owner trolls.

[bazza73]

4 minutes ago, trogers said:

Shows that who you choose as a life partner is the life you would lead.

 

You harvest what you plant...

Gal 6:7

I assume from your statement you have a crystal ball or tarot cards which would prevent this happening to you.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Sigh.... renters don't have these problems. Drum roll and cue the property owner trolls.

Well....it's something to think about for sure.

[KittenKong]

3 minutes ago, trogers said:

Shows that who you choose as a life partner is the life you would lead.

 

In most countries you can reasonably assume that your potential wife is not a complete crook ready to sell you out for a pittance.

 

Here that doesnt seem to apply.

 

My way of avoiding domestic theft is to never allow people here any access to my dwelling or its contents or my documents, unless I am there to watch their every move. I learned that trick 40 years ago and it's worked well ever since.

[Confuscious]

10 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Every time I go back to Australia, I take all my Thai bank books with me.

Two reasons: Verification of balances with Centrelink. I don't want anyone to get their hands on them while I am not in Thailand.

Is your wife still around? I would have booted her out very smartly for a breach of trust like that.

 

My wife is not my wife anymore.
Booted her out a long time ago.

[KittenKong]

20 minutes ago, Confuscious said:

Not quite the same as Condo, but showing that EVERYTHING is possible in Thailand.
...
I opened the letter and found a loan approval (1,500,000 baht) and the documents for that loan approval included several documents to which my wife had no access.
....
I went immediately to the tourist police and, after they confirmed that that was illegal, a tourist police officer went with me to the bank to cancel all these documents which were used in an unlawful way.
The bank director asked for excuses as it was not he who approved the loan and cancelled the loan immediately.

 

This happens far more often here than most people appreciate. Why? Because the perpetrators are rarely prosecuted and everything is hushed up to save face.

 

In my opinion your wife should have been jailed, the bank manager should have been demoted for incompetence and whoever did approve the paperwork should be fired and possibly jailed too if he was implicated. But I bet that none of that ever happened. In fact I bet that there is no written trace of this scam at all.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

So? 50kB seems like a small price to pay to ensure that your multi-million Baht property cant be transferred from under you. And if 50kB is a big deal, perhaps make the loan 20kB or 5kB?

Or even the nominal 5 baht that is traditionally offered to the spouse in an uncontested divorce settlement?

 

(I didn't even give her that)

 

BTW, the divorce (about 28 years ago) was ultimately triggered by the fact that while I was away at work, she had re-mortgaged the house with the original lending bank. I didn't know about it until after we had a fight and we parted ways. A few weeks later, the bank came calling to see her as she hadn't made loan repayments for about 3 months.

 

On this, my second Thai rodeo, I know the importance of my signature and as advised by others herein, certain important papers stay completely under my control.

Edited June 6, 2017 by NanLaew

[trogers]

37 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

I assume from your statement you have a crystal ball or tarot cards which would prevent this happening to you.

I don't jump into a marriage. Been here in 1983, and got married in 1995.

[trogers]

38 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

In most countries you can reasonably assume that your potential wife is not a complete crook ready to sell you out for a pittance.

 

Here that doesnt seem to apply.

 

My way of avoiding domestic theft is to never allow people here any access to my dwelling or its contents or my documents, unless I am there to watch their every move. I learned that trick 40 years ago and it's worked well ever since.

My parents are also into holding properties for rental income. All title deeds are in two names and all original title deeds are kept in a bank vault overseas.

[NanLaew]

33 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

This happens far more often here than most people appreciate. Why? Because the perpetrators are rarely prosecuted and everything is hushed up to save face.

 

In my opinion your wife should have been jailed, the bank manager should have been demoted for incompetence and whoever did approve the paperwork should be fired and possibly jailed too if he was implicated. But I bet that none of that ever happened. In fact I bet that there is no written trace of this scam at all.

In the west, yes. But here in Thailand where it appears there is no legal requirement for any formal due diligence to be carried out on any legal and business transactions, it's definitely a case of cover your arse.

 

There's the recent thread about the former company employee who forged signatures on a fake power of attorney that enabled her to 'own' a company vehicle and use it to secure a loan that she ultimately defaulted on. The police merely adjudicated on an agreement between the thieving fraudster, the finance company and the legal owner of the car to secure their assets and recoup their funds without anyone going to jail. The local Land Transport Department that accepted fraudulently obtained paperwork without due diligence weren't even invited to the gong show.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

Every time I go back to Australia, I take all my Thai bank books with me.

Two reasons: Verification of balances with Centrelink. I don't want anyone to get their hands on them while I am not in Thailand.

Is your wife still around? I would have booted her out very smartly for a breach of trust like that.

Really, you voluntarily inform your government about your bank accounts in Thailand.

Edited June 6, 2017 by fatdrunkandstupid

[JaseTheBass]

1 hour ago, trogers said:

Shows that who you choose as a life partner is the life you would lead.

 

You harvest what you plant...

Gal 6:7

I'm not sure foreigners are to blame for a large number of Thais having no morals.

[JaseTheBass]

34 minutes ago, trogers said:

My parents are also into holding properties for rental income. All title deeds are in two names and all original title deeds are kept in a bank vault overseas.

A quick trip to the police station to report they've gone missing, a few baht to the correct person at the bank and your safe storage of paperwork is meaningless.

[trogers]

35 minutes ago, JaseTheBass said:

A quick trip to the police station to report they've gone missing, a few baht to the correct person at the bank and your safe storage of paperwork is meaningless.

What bank in Thailand? We don't use mortgages.