Latimer Road fire: Huge fire engulfs west London flats

[Andaman Al]

13 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

there will be rioting and theft tonight, police should shoot to kill catching anyone rioting and looting. this has happened so many times, the looters will be organising themselves now. 

Phew! Thank the Lordy that many people don't go into politics or Government service. So lets get this straight, we have just had probably 100 people burned to death in a national tragedy and local residents are extremely angry and you now want to impose a shoot to kill policy. That will help quell the anger then won't it. Current protests would turn into a London wide street war. No reports of looting in London last night.

 

Instead of bullets the top politicians need to visit, weep, give out plenty of heartfelt hugs, pledge an immediate 20 Million to get the current high rise buildings immediately up to a fire safety standard regarding sprinklers, alarms and improved escape access and THEN the residents and local population will feel that somebody (THEIR elected Government) is doing something. The Government can afford to give London an interest free loan of 20 mill payable back over 10 years to improve the situation now. No waiting, no waiting for results of a 12 month enquiry. What concerns me now is although this fire was accidentally started, now that everyone has witnessed just how easy these cladding covered tower blocks go up in flames, there will be some nut job ISIS wannabe who will think if he sets fire to another he will have 72 virgins waiting for him in paradise. The Government needs to act now.

[Flustered]

11 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

 

So you think they should wait for months before checking the other buildings or rehousing people or.....

 

Look...they have been told about these things for years and did nothing. 

 

Why should people wait for months? By then people would have forgotten and moved on to other things. heads should roll for sure. The sooner the better.

So you are one of the knee jerk people who just want to blame someone.

 

Do you know how long it takes to carry out an investigation into a tragedy like this...of course you don't You just want to point a finger at anyone.

 

The cause of the fire and the reason it spread so fast be be properly investigated and by someone who knows what they are doing, not a desktop jockey.

 

Looking at your posts, it is plain for all to see that you are just trying to stir up the flames and start arguments with FMs. Only a matter of time before the Mods read your posts.

[Rc2702]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

So you are one of the knee jerk people who just want to blame someone.

 

Do you know how long it takes to carry out an investigation into a tragedy like this...of course you don't You just want to point a finger at anyone.

 

The cause of the fire and the reason it spread so fast be be properly investigated and by someone who knows what they are doing, not a desktop jockey.

 

Looking at your posts, it is plain for all to see that you are just trying to stir up the flames and start arguments with FMs. Only a matter of time before the Mods read your posts.

Knee jerk is exactly what you need in a incident like this. A full immediate investigation where all other projects which were worked on by the companies involved are immediately inspected to prevent further loss of life and heads need to roll big time and a singer speaking up for the less fortunate is a good thing because if pressure is not applied to the local spun cil to act properly and in the interests of the residents then chances are it may happen again. 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, Rc2702 said:

Knee jerk is exactly what you need in a incident like this. A full immediate investigation where all other projects which were worked on by the companies involved are immediately inspected to prevent further loss of life and heads need to roll big time and a singer speaking up for the less fortunate is a good thing because if pressure is not applied to the local spun cil to act properly and in the interests of the residents then chances are it may happen again. 

Give it a break.

 

Knee jerking leads to the wrong people being blamed and lives ruined. It also leads to the sort of mob rule we saw yesterday.

 

But it seems what a certain section of society wants, anarchy and mob rule rather than law and order and the truth.

[Rc2702]

Just now, Flustered said:

Give it a break.

 

Knee jerking leads to the wrong people being blamed and lives ruined. It also leads to the sort of mob rule we saw yesterday.

 

But it seems what a certain section of society wants, anarchy and mob rule rather than law and order and the truth.

Nah. The people have been massively wronged and situations like yesterday are warranted and government will take note and heads will roll in both the public and private sectors who seem to have made the first move given the manner the block went into flames. Total disregard for human life by the H&S and building inspectors who signed off on this.

[HauptmannUK]

28 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Give it a break.

 

Knee jerking leads to the wrong people being blamed and lives ruined. It also leads to the sort of mob rule we saw yesterday.

 

But it seems what a certain section of society wants, anarchy and mob rule rather than law and order and the truth.

Given what happened a bit of 'knee jerking' and immediately ripping this type of flammable cladding off other tall buildings would be a wise precaution. We can pick over the fine details of what happened over the coming year or so.

[dick dasterdly]

26 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

Nah. The people have been massively wronged and situations like yesterday are warranted and government will take note and heads will roll in both the public and private sectors who seem to have made the first move given the manner the block went into flames. Total disregard for human life by the H&S and building inspectors who signed off on this.

Heads will roll - other tha scapegoats???  Past experiemce makes it seem umlikely.

[Basil B]

16 hours ago, Flustered said:

Now we have a mob breaking into the town hall causing mayhem.

 

How does this help the families of the dead.

 

Also reported that Lily Allen has been stirring up the mob with her facebook posts and tweets. She admits to politicising the issue to gain attention.

 

<deleted>  has this got to do with Lily Allen. Has she offered her home to the homeless families? You bet your life she hasn't

 

A cheap publicity stunt by a fading singer using the grief and tragedy of others. And to think that some FMs actually quote her as a source of news.

Someone said the protests were spontaneous... possibly  but the Labour party is trying to make political mischief out of this.

 

Shame on Corbyn and his band of <omitted> ...

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Someone said the protests were spontaneous... possibly  but the Labour party is trying to make political mischief out of this.

 

Shame on Corbyn and his band of <omitted> ...

Protesters are makig "political mischief' out of this....

[zoza]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

So you are one of the knee jerk people who just want to blame someone.

 

Do you know how long it takes to carry out an investigation into a tragedy like this...of course you don't You just want to point a finger at anyone.

 

The cause of the fire and the reason it spread so fast be be properly investigated and by someone who knows what they are doing, not a desktop jockey.

 

Looking at your posts, it is plain for all to see that you are just trying to stir up the flames and start arguments with FMs. Only a matter of time before the Mods read your posts.

The solicitor who represents the victims of the 2009 high rise fire and many others have said that a Public Enquiry is not what is required. we have had one of them? and what was the

result of listening to our government and having a Public Enquiry? Mrs May sacked another

"advisor" yes another one under the bus  because it was all his fault as he sat on the report

for four years. so knee jerk is 100% better than hiring a load of "Advisors" and eight years

later when an even worse fire happens we just do the same. she is always saying we have

lessons to learn well it appears that a lot of people in the UK have learn't not to trust these

people, this is the reaction after years of ducking and diving by the powers that be .

enough is enough, people will not put up with all the bull s**t anymore and reading the

nonsense that the May apologists come out with on here is sickening.

[AGareth2]

1 minute ago, zoza said:

The solicitor who represents the victims of the 2009 high rise fire and many others have said that a Public Enquiry is not what is required. we have had one of them? and what was the

result of listening to our government and having a Public Enquiry? Mrs May sacked another

"advisor" yes another one under the bus  because it was all his fault as he sat on the report

for four years. so knee jerk is 100% better than hiring a load of "Advisors" and eight years

later when an even worse fire happens we just do the same. she is always saying we have

lessons to learn well it appears that a lot of people in the UK have learn't not to trust these

people, this is the reaction after years of ducking and diving by the powers that be .

enough is enough, people will not put up with all the bull s**t anymore and reading the

nonsense that the May apologists come out with on here is sickening.

what are you proposing?

Anarchy?

[JamJar]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

So you are one of the knee jerk people who just want to blame someone.

 

Do you know how long it takes to carry out an investigation into a tragedy like this...of course you don't You just want to point a finger at anyone.

 

The cause of the fire and the reason it spread so fast be be properly investigated and by someone who knows what they are doing, not a desktop jockey.

 

Looking at your posts, it is plain for all to see that you are just trying to stir up the flames and start arguments with FMs. Only a matter of time before the Mods read your posts.

 

 

Sometimes you need to engage brain before your knee jerk response.

Once again, I will tell you that much of this was known before the disaster. The powers that be just kicked it down the road.

Why do you think that people like myself were able to post relevant info so quickly?

 

I was the first to post the companies involved and how quickly they took pages down in order to hide their involvement.

Because of the work of people like myself, some of them saw the action as futile and self incriminating and put them back up.

I was also the first here to highlight the dodgy practices of the Baileys, which has now been picked up by the newspapers;  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4611268/Grenfell-cladding-bosses-2-5m-tax-avoidance.html

 

I could go on. But no need. I post facts, not conjecture.

 

Whereas I have no idea as to why you are posting at all. Do you have any knowledge with regard to this situation?

I'm guessing that you do not....but here you are posting away. Trolling in my opinion. But it is a discussion forum and I am confident that my posting of relevant information will sweep away your meaningless opinion.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by JamJar

[zoza]

3 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

what are you proposing?

Anarchy?

no not anarchy but I understand the anger, when I first went up north in Thailand the pot

holes used to do my head in, after a few years I headed back to the UK and I could not

believe the state of our roads we had near as many as up northern Thailand.

there used to be a burnt out condo as you headed to Jomtien we nicknamed it the match   

and we used to listen to stories about the lack of fire regulations in Thailand and locked

 fire doors, but this was in this third world country where life is cheap.

and corruption was rife.

I watched the terrible fire in London and read about the previous fire 2009 with six dead

the government called for a public enquiry. and what happened nothing, Mrs May sacked

an underling for sitting on the review for four years. now I read people berating other poster's

because they call for action....they have all seen what happened last time....a public enquiry is run by the government who have already proven their appetite for getting to

the bottom of these incidents, Thailand gets a bad press but the UK is looking very poor

and I feel no pride in being British when I look at some of our leaders.

  and then we have the people on here who tell everyone

 every thing is fine, and that people should not demand justice and that the Guilty will

to go to jail, as that is the only way it can be done...just like the last time

not one attempt to explain why nothing was done last time just blame an advisor

 ....one big smoke screen

a lot of people have lost any faith in this government and it will take a long time before

they will trust them again.       

 

[JamJar]

56 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

what are you proposing?

Anarchy?

 

Why would you even bother to reply with such nonsense?

It reported just about everywhere that people are demanding an inquest, as opposed the usual whitewash of a public inquiry.

 

 

[KhaoNiaw]

There is still absolutely no leadership or coordination being exercised at Grenfell. Every single reporter who has been to the scene has talked of the community pouring out to give support and the complete chaos and lack of leadership shown by the authorities. Theresa May has announced her package and that's it. No coordination or working to focus the efforts of all the volunteers and organizations doing their best, just a team to give out hotline numbers. It's a disgrace. And then people complain that the tragedy is being politicized ...

Edited June 17, 2017 by KhaoNiaw

[Thakkar]

Tweet by Lord Buckethead:

 

Lord Buckethead (‪@LordBuckethead‬)

15/6/17, 06:59

Contrary to rumours, I am not a contender to be the new leader of the Liberal Democrats. I'm ambitious.

[Grouse]

The knee jerk response should be halting all similar work and offering alternative accommodation to those in buildings of similar build. Also arrest, bail, and hold the passports of all involved. THEN carry out a full enquiry and immediately implement the recommendations.

[JamJar]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

Give it a break.

 

Knee jerking leads to the wrong people being blamed and lives ruined. It also leads to the sort of mob rule we saw yesterday.

 

But it seems what a certain section of society wants, anarchy and mob rule rather than law and order and the truth.

 

 

Who do you think are the wrong people?

The people that supplied and fitted the cladding? We can see that they are paragons of virtue with their tax dodges and putting themselves into administration in order to avoid paying their creditors....only to purchase the assets of the old company and carry on like nothing happened.

The government who kicked the ball into the long grass and left it there for four years?

The council who ignored the concerns of the residents and even threatened to sue them for libel? The same people who claim that they didn't bother to fit sprinklers costing less than £250,000 because they didn't want to disrupt the residents, but worded it to sound as if the residents did not want it.

Shall I go on?

 

What you don't seem to understand, mainly because you do seem to know anything, is that all of this is already known.

The problem is that the powers that be have to put it together for themselves. It's not that we don't know what happened.

The whole thing is a shambles.

 

While some some to claim that political capital is being made out of this...that is because it is political. 

Those are the people who are making decisions on our behalf and they appear almost entirely inept. It's actually scary.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

There is still absolutely no leadership or coordination being exercised at Grenfell. Every single reporter who has been to the scene has talked of the community pouring out to give support and the complete chaos and lack of leadership shown by the authorities. Theresa May has announced her package and that's it. No coordination or working to focus the efforts of all the volunteers and organizations doing their best, just a team to give out hotline numbers. It's a disgrace. And then people complain that the tragedy is being politicized ...

This post expemplifies how its vecome  a political issue.....

[AGareth2]

Corbyn calling for requisition of empty properties

to house families

[7by7]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

Someone said the protests were spontaneous... possibly  but the Labour party is trying to make political mischief out of this.

 

Shame on Corbyn and his band of <omitted> ...

Protesters are makig "political mischief' out of this....

 

Watching the news on TV in the UK, it did seem that Corbyn's hugging etc. of tearful residents was somewhat stage managed; true. If that is so, then he and his advisors should be thoroughly ashamed.

 

But from watching the protest at Kensington town hall, it was obvious that it was organised by local residents; although, as usual, the low lives of the Socialist Workers Party were trying to take over and get people to carry their placards; without, I'm glad to say, much success!

 

As for the real protesters, that is the local residents, they have been complaining about the state of affairs in Grenfell Tower and other blocks for years, and been ignored. Who can blame them for being angry?

[Flustered]

7 minutes ago, JamJar said:

 

 

Who do you think are the wrong people?

I will stick to one point.

 

The people who are the wrong ones to blame are the new Labour councillors who would have been ripped to pieces by that agitated lynch mob. They had only just been elected so how could they be responsible.

 

Oh it's the councils fault, no it's the Governments fault, no it's Teresa May's fault. You do not know yet who is to blame and that will come out in the inquiry, not a kangaroo court.

 

The person responsible is the one who caused the fire in the first place and if the cladding is found to be responsible for the growth of the fire, then the person who specified it is responsible. Not some poor council office worker who had nothing to do with this.

[JamJar]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

This post expemplifies how its vecome  a political issue.....

 

Is that even English?

 

It is a political issue. I don't know why you would imagine that it is not.

The government who kicked the review into the long grass and left it there is the government in power. Why should we trust them, especially as the man currently responsible became the PM's Chief of Staff.

The Conservative government would like to hold a public enquiry. Now to the uninitiated, that sounds like a transparent process...but it is not.

 

Read about the differences between a Public Enquiry and an Inquest.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-fire-inquest-inquiry-theresa-may-faces-demands-whitewash-fears-latest-news-a7793866.html

 

So there is good reason as to why the government would prefer a public enquiry. They want to cover their backsides and to stay in power whatever the cost.

 

Whereas we need the best possible representatives, regardless of persuasion. 

 

So, it is political and the quicker we all understand that, the better.

[Flustered]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The knee jerk response should be halting all similar work and offering alternative accommodation to those in buildings of similar build. Also arrest, bail, and hold the passports of all involved. THEN carry out a full enquiry and immediately implement the recommendations.

Wow, that's your Liberal lefty values flown out of the window,

 

I thought you were against a police state.

[7by7]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

The person responsible is the one who caused the fire in the first place

 Until the LFB have completed their investigations, we will not know for sure how the fire started.

 

But all the indications are that no one caused the fire; it was an accident, started by a fridge catching fire.

 

Is your fridge a fire hazard?

Quote

According to the London Fire Brigade (LFB) there is an average of at least one fridge fire a week.

 

This fire should have been contained within in a small area and put out in a short period of time; as the fire last year at a block in Shepherds Bush Green was. The big difference between these two fires is, it seems to me,  that the block in Shepherds Bush didn't have this external cladding.

[JamJar]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I will stick to one point.

 

The people who are the wrong ones to blame are the new Labour councillors who would have been ripped to pieces by that agitated lynch mob. They had only just been elected so how could they be responsible.

 

Oh it's the councils fault, no it's the Governments fault, no it's Teresa May's fault. You do not know yet who is to blame and that will come out in the inquiry, not a kangaroo court.

 

The person responsible is the one who caused the fire in the first place and if the cladding is found to be responsible for the growth of the fire, then the person who specified it is responsible. Not some poor council office worker who had nothing to do with this.

 

No one is blaming the ordinary council workers and no one here has suggesting such a thing, but here you are arguing with people posting facts.

 

I have not even once posted about the actions of protesters.So if your comments are concerning the actions of the protesters, you should have made that clear in the first place. Otherwise it looks as if you are back-pedalling.

 

My posts are aimed at keeping the people responsible for the disaster in the public eye.

Therese May's response was woeful. Like a mother who has no time for her children, so buys them sweets and toys instead...too little and too late.

 

It's not just one person responsible. There were many decisions taken and not taken that led to the disaster.

Why on earth would we want any of the people involved in public office? They have proved incompetent and they need to go. No ifs or buts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JamJar]

8 minutes ago, Flustered said:

One statement by a neighbour on what a man told her.

 

How do we know what caused it? It could have been a cooker fire after all it is Ramadan and at this time of night, people are busy cooking meals. It could have been a cigarette on a settee or it could have been the fridge. We do not know and too many people have been pilloried in the past by knee jerk reactions when they were entirely innocent.

 

I seem to be in a minority when it comes to innocent until proven guilty. Today's world is string everyone up and hope we got the guilty one.

 

 

Wow.....

 

Are you really missing the simple point that a fire in one apartment, should not have engulfed the whole building.

That is the issue here. 

 

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

23 minutes ago, JamJar said:

Read about the differences between a Public Enquiry and an Inquest.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-fire-inquest-inquiry-theresa-may-faces-demands-whitewash-fears-latest-news-a7793866.html

 

So there is good reason as to why the government would prefer a public enquiry. They want to cover their backsides and to stay in power whatever the cost.

 

 

That's a very interesting article. Being a non-Brit, I wasn't familiar with the different courses such an investigation could take. But after reading the explanation, it certainly sounds like a formal inquest conducted by a coroner would be the right way to go -- and not a public enquiry controlled by the government, potentially including those in public service who may be allied with some of those officials who bear responsibility for the tragedy.

 

Of course, according to the article, the last big residential high-rise fire in London did have an inquest, did result in the recommendation that such buildings be retrofitted with fire sprinklers -- and then, the local governments involved as owners apparently did nothing.

 

Quote

An inquest was carried out into the six deaths in the 2009 Lakanal House fire in Southwark, but the recommendations of the coroner - including the installation of sprinklers - were not acted on by a majority of councils, including Kensington and Chelsea. Southwark Council was subsequently taken to court for being in breach of safety regulations by the London Fire Brigade and fined £570,000.

 

People there should demand better of their elected officials.

 

[7by7]

7 minutes ago, Flustered said:

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

But all the indications are that no one caused the fire; it was an accident, started by a fridge catching fire.

One statement by a neighbour on what a man told her.

 More than one statement from one neighbour. many statements from neighbours saying that he was knocking on doors telling people to get out because his fridge had set his kitchen on fire.

Grenfell Tower fire caused by faulty fridge on fourth floor, reports suggest

Quote

The flat’s owner, said to be mini-cab driver Behailu Kebede, reportedly attempted to warn other residents about the blaze in his kitchen, potentially saving lives.

Neighbours told how Mr Kebede, a father of one, immediately raised the alarm after discovering the fire in his flat, which was number 16 in the 24-story block, as well as contacting the police and fire services

So whilst all other causes have to be considered, including those you listed, the faulty fridge does seem the most likely.

 

But the point I'm trying to make is that whatever the cause, no one is to blame for the fire starting; i.e. it was almost certainly accidental, not arson.

[KhaoNiaw]

33 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Watching the news on TV in the UK, it did seem that Corbyn's hugging etc. of tearful residents was somewhat stage managed; true. If that is so, then he and his advisors should be thoroughly ashamed.

This is what Corbyn has been doing for decades as a backbencher. Local people know him and they know it wasn't stage managed. And in his backbench days, he would have spoken out on behalf of people like this, regardless of whether it was a Labour or Conservative government. Now that he's in the leadership, he hasn't changed his style.

There's no point in arguing the toss with people who think he's a raving leftie opportunist rabble rouser. But look at the editorials coming out of the Tory newspapers and the reports from everyone who has actually been on the ground.