Death of U.S. student held by North Korea shocks fellow ex-detainees

[webfact]

Death of U.S. student held by North Korea shocks fellow ex-detainees

By Jon Herskovitz

 

FILE PHOTO: Jeffrey Fowle (C) and his wife Tatyana (R), are greeted by U.S. Air Force 88 Air Base Wing Commander Col. John Devillier upon arrival at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio early October 22, 2014. Marie Vanover/U.S. Air Force/Handout via REUTERS

 

(Reuters) - The death this week of an American university student held prisoner for 17 months by North Korea left Ohio municipal worker Jeffrey Fowle shaken.

 

Fowle, 59, is one of 16 Americans who have been imprisoned by the reclusive state over the last two decades, including three who remain detained. Like student Otto Warmbier, he visited North Korea with a tour group and was taken into custody at the airport when trying to leave.

 

But Fowle was released in relatively good physical health after a six-month detention. Warmbier, 22, died at a Cincinnati hospital on Monday, just days after he was released from captivity in a coma. The family declined an autopsy.

 

"Otto Warmbier’s death was a sudden tragedy for all of America," Fowle said in a telephone interview on Tuesday. "It doesn’t take much to get in trouble in North Korea."

 

Both men committed infractions that would be considered minor in most parts of the world. Fowle left a Bible behind in a nightclub in the coastal city in Chongjin. Warmbier was convicted for trying to steal a banner linked to former North Korean leader Kim Jong Il from a Pyongyang hotel used by foreign tourists.

 

However, in the eyes of North Korea, where Kim Jong Il is revered as a demigod and proselytizing is seen as an assault on the state, the two had committed heinous crimes.

 

Fowle spent nearly a month of his detention in a hotel for foreigners and then was moved to a guest house in another part of Pyongyang. Like others held under varying terms of detention, from cramped, windowless shacks offering little protection from the country's bitter cold to hotel rooms, Fowle recalled the sense of isolation he felt.

 

"The emotional strain was high, especially during the early part of my detention when I was coached on how to formulate my admission of guilt," Fowle said, adding, "I was never physically abused."

 

The longest-serving of the American prisoners, Christian missionary Kenneth Bae, has said he had to shovel coal, haul rocks and had about 30 guards keeping watch over him as their sole prisoner during his two years in captivity beginning in 2012.

 

"Although we don’t know everything about life in North Korea, this much is sure: innocent people like Otto are suffering," Bae said in a statement after Warmbier's death.

 

The news of Warmbier’s death reminded George Hunziker, 59, of his younger brother Evan’s imprisonment in North Korea after being charged with spying in 1996. Evan Hunziker, then 26, was held for three months and committed suicide about a month after his return to the United States.

 

George Hunziker said his brother was young like Warmbier and did not realise the seriousness of his actions. He swam from China across the border with North Korea and was arrested. He was later charged with spying.

 

“You're in America and you think you can do stuff and there's no consequences, but in North Korea you don't have those same privileges,” he said. “I wish somebody could do something about those crazy people over there.”

 

 

(Reporting by Jon Herskovitz in Austin, Texas and Gina Cherelus in New York; Editing by Lisa Shumaker; Editing by Colleen Jenkins and Lisa Shumaker)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-06-21

[Sydebolle]

Before making all sorts of accusations and assumptions you might want to do an autopsy to find out, what really was wrong with the fellow. Certainly detention in North Korea did not add to his health - applies to most prisons around the globe. 

One of only three aircraft on the planet which can handle highly contagious diseases (like Ebola), was dispatched because someone floated "botulism" as the reason of ill health. Yet on landing he got carried out of the plane without any protective gear for him or for the medics. 

The entire story does not tally; an university graduate - pre briefed prior to entering North Korea on short notice (apparently he decided to go there while visiting Beijing) - usually does not have the financial means to do such things on an impulse and he must have been understanding perfectly well the "dos and donts" in North Korea. All tour agents brief their clients properly and professionally on that issue.

Get to the root of the issue, also for the sake of his family which must be devastated and obviously need someone to blame.

Last not least it might be a good idea for all Americans to stay out of North Korea; I am not aware of any other inmates in the Land of the Kids. 

[Scott]

American's are not unique as foreign prisoners in North Korea, The list includes, of course, quite a few South Koreans, Japanese, Australians, and Canadians who have been held prisoner.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea

[williamgeorgeallen]

maybe westerners should stop going there.

[Rob13]

37 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

All tour agents brief their clients properly and professionally on that issue.

Check the other thread. The tour group he signed up with has a poor record for professional conduct.

[Srikcir]

5 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

you might want to do an autopsy to find out, what really was wrong with the fellow.

Family denied an autopsy.

[YetAnother]

7 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

maybe westerners should stop going there.

too simple ?

[williamgeorgeallen]

8 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

too simple ?

it seems people do stupid things to add excitement to their lives. people are quick to blame north korea but fact is he choose to go there.

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Family denied an autopsy.

They declined.

[Slickrick]

Why would anyone want to go there?

[Grubster]

On 6/21/2017 at 5:52 PM, williamgeorgeallen said:

it seems people do stupid things to add excitement to their lives. people are quick to blame north korea but fact is he choose to go there.

They are all idiots and the west should not waste one dollar or one phone call to get them back. If they want to use the freedom they have to go somewhere that has no freedom then they make there own bed.

[williamgeorgeallen]

8 hours ago, Grubster said:

They are all idiots and the west should not waste one dollar or one phone call to get them back. If they want to use the freedom they have to go somewhere that has no freedom then they make there own bed.

same could be said for many who have moved to thailand and lost it all or ended up in jail or dead. the military dictator is a it worse in north korea of course.

[Grubster]

17 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

same could be said for many who have moved to thailand and lost it all or ended up in jail or dead. the military dictator is a it worse in north korea of course.

No the same cannot be said, there is a no travel order for all US citizens to North Korea, Iran and a few other countries, Thailand has been an ally of the US for almost two hundred years.

[ilostmypassword]

On 6/21/2017 at 10:11 AM, Sydebolle said:

Before making all sorts of accusations and assumptions you might want to do an autopsy to find out, what really was wrong with the fellow. Certainly detention in North Korea did not add to his health - applies to most prisons around the globe. 

One of only three aircraft on the planet which can handle highly contagious diseases (like Ebola), was dispatched because someone floated "botulism" as the reason of ill health. Yet on landing he got carried out of the plane without any protective gear for him or for the medics. 

The entire story does not tally; an university graduate - pre briefed prior to entering North Korea on short notice (apparently he decided to go there while visiting Beijing) - usually does not have the financial means to do such things on an impulse and he must have been understanding perfectly well the "dos and donts" in North Korea. All tour agents brief their clients properly and professionally on that issue.

Get to the root of the issue, also for the sake of his family which must be devastated and obviously need someone to blame.

Last not least it might be a good idea for all Americans to stay out of North Korea; I am not aware of any other inmates in the Land of the Kids. 

I can't find anything about him being evacuated on a plane especially equipped for contagious diseases. And if such a plane was provided, it wouldn't be for botulism which is definitely not a contagious disease. It's caused by toxins generated by clostridium botulinum but the organism only rarely can infect humans and only if they are infants. And even then not contagious.

[williamgeorgeallen]

6 hours ago, Grubster said:

No the same cannot be said, there is a no travel order for all US citizens to North Korea, Iran and a few other countries, Thailand has been an ally of the US for almost two hundred years.

thailand was on japans team during the second world war and is now cosying up to china. but thats another conversation.

[Grubster]

5 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

thailand was on japans team during the second world war and is now cosying up to china. but thats another conversation.

On japans team by force. The USA is still an ally of Thailand.

[williamgeorgeallen]

26 minutes ago, Grubster said:

On japans team by force. The USA is still an ally of Thailand.

Thailand declared war on the United States and Britain and annexed territories in neighbouring countries, expanding to the north, south, and east, gaining a border with China near Kengtung.^[1]

[Rob13]

30 minutes ago, Grubster said:

On japans team by force. The USA is still an ally of Thailand.

It was by choice. Pibun allied Siam with the Japanese. He also had an arrangement with Britain and the US.

[Grubster]

6 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

Thailand declared war on the United States and Britain and annexed territories in neighbouring countries, expanding to the north, south, and east, gaining a border with China near Kengtung.^[1]

Thailand was invaded by Japan in Dec. 1941 and forced to allow Japan to attack Burma and others from within their borders. I guess you think Poland invaded the UK huh.

[Grubster]

2 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

It was by choice. Pibun allied Siam with the Japanese. He also had an arrangement with Britain and the US.

Thailand was neutral until they were invaded, their choice was capitulate or die swiftly.

[Rob13]

30 minutes ago, Grubster said:

Thailand was invaded by Japan in Dec. 1941

 Thailand Gov't declared war on the US in Jan. 42

[Grubster]

5 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

 Thailand Gov't declared war on the US in Jan. 42

Yes after they were invaded by Japan, do you really think they wanted to declare war? They had a choice to make under the sword. Is that hard to understand?

[Scott]

Please get back to the topic, which isn't about Thailand and WWII.   Continued off-topic trolling will result in suspensions.  

[Sydebolle]

On 6/24/2017 at 8:58 PM, ilostmypassword said:

I can't find anything about him being evacuated on a plane especially equipped for contagious diseases. And if such a plane was provided, it wouldn't be for botulism which is definitely not a contagious disease. It's caused by toxins generated by clostridium botulinum but the organism only rarely can infect humans and only if they are infants. And even then not contagious.

Well, it was a chartered plane owned by Phoenix Air Group, immatriculation N163PA, a Gulfstream which looks like this. The plane left Cartersville via Washington DC, Great Falls, Anchorage to New Chitose Airport (USAF air base near Sapporo). From there there is no tracking for 75 hours until the plane officially left New Chitose Airport on the same routing back to base in Cartersville. The missing 75 hours were a covert flight operation into Sunan (airport of Pyongyang, the North Korean capital). 

N163PA is a flying hospital for highly contagious diseases like Ebola and yes, Warmbier was carried out of the plane without any protective covers by medical staff on arrival in Washington which was shown all over the TV news channels ten days ago. 

Unclear is what really happened to this kiddo, why he survived the flight just to die a few days later and why the family refused an autopsy which would have shed light into this most mysterious case. How does a 22 year old, on an expensive China trip, decide ad hoc to visit North Korea while disregarding the briefing of the travel agent (standard procedure; I was there a couple of times and the thorough briefing by different agents was identical and crystal clear on what to do and what NOT to do). 

This case will never be cleared, too many mysteries on the file .... 

[Rob13]

1 hour ago, Sydebolle said:

Why the family refused an autopsy

The Warmbiers are jewish and refused the autopsy for religious reasons. No mystery there.

 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Sydebolle said:

Well, it was a chartered plane owned by Phoenix Air Group, immatriculation N163PA, a Gulfstream which looks like this. The plane left Cartersville via Washington DC, Great Falls, Anchorage to New Chitose Airport (USAF air base near Sapporo). From there there is no tracking for 75 hours until the plane officially left New Chitose Airport on the same routing back to base in Cartersville. The missing 75 hours were a covert flight operation into Sunan (airport of Pyongyang, the North Korean capital). 

N163PA is a flying hospital for highly contagious diseases like Ebola and yes, Warmbier was carried out of the plane without any protective covers by medical staff on arrival in Washington which was shown all over the TV news channels ten days ago. 

Unclear is what really happened to this kiddo, why he survived the flight just to die a few days later and why the family refused an autopsy which would have shed light into this most mysterious case. How does a 22 year old, on an expensive China trip, decide ad hoc to visit North Korea while disregarding the briefing of the travel agent (standard procedure; I was there a couple of times and the thorough briefing by different agents was identical and crystal clear on what to do and what NOT to do). 

This case will never be cleared, too many mysteries on the file .... 

I have look in vain to find an authoritative sources that confirms that this jet is what you say it is. The only link google provides is to this dubious source. 

https://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2685787/pg5

Presumably you have a better source than this. Can you share it?

[Sydebolle]

46 minutes ago, Rob13 said:

The Warmbiers are jewish and refused the autopsy for religious reasons. No mystery there.

 

Well, I am fully aware that you cannot go more Jewish than "Warmbier".

In the interest of this more than mysterious case I would have put religious reasons behind the cause. Roman Catholics are also buried and not cremated while today this is no longer a reason to be excommunicated by the Pope. 
 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

Well, I am fully aware that you cannot go more Jewish than "Warmbier".

 
 

Actually, you can. It's his mother who was Jewish. So under Jewish religious law, he is Jewish. "Warmbier" is not a typical Jewish name at all. Typically the Germans assigned family names to Jews with references either to gold or silver or gemstones.

[Chip Allen]

Very strange that Americans are even ALLOWED to go there. Cuba was off limits to Americans for years and was considerably more welcoming. Some things make little sense.

[ilostmypassword]

25 minutes ago, Chip Allen said:

Very strange that Americans are even ALLOWED to go there. Cuba was off limits to Americans for years and was considerably more welcoming. Some things make little sense.

Cuban Americans are mostly refugees or the children of refugees from Castro's Cuba. And they still tend to vote Republican but in declining numbers. Whereas virtually all Korean Americans come from South Korea. So there are no votes to be had in making life difficult for the North. Also, Korean Americans, like most Asian Americans nowadays tend to vote Democratic. Which right wingers explain is because people who vote for the democrats are lazy and looking for handouts.