English tests to be mandatory for all Thai Army chiefs

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Since when knowing English and being intelligent are related? First, we have an English that has a dumb spelling system that only a few are interested to reform (because many have never had to learn it as a foreign language [if they had to learn another language at all]).

 

The spelling system in English is dumb. There are 200 spellings for 44 phonemes. Think about that. There are 4 choices of spellings for every phoneme or sound. One must flip a roll a dice that has 4 sides every time one decodes a letter or memorize the whole lexicon, which happened to be the only course. English is a bit like Chinese in that respect. Many would think I am nuts of course, but do you think Roosevelt was. How about Carnegie? How about G. B. Shaw or Webster? And how about Orwell:

 

Our existing spelling system is preposterous and must be a torment to foreign students. This is a pity, because English is well fitted to be the universal second language, if there ever is such a thing. Would it not be possible to rationalize it little by little, a few words every year? (George Orwell, Book, etext)

 

Many will point that this is a matter of good teaching and it is in some respect. Still, research shows that no matter what, English learners --at the start of school-- struggle "no matter what":

 

 

(http://www.elemedu.upatras.gr/en...)

 

Since the system is so hard to learn, the teacher must follow (in first language teaching) pedagogies that are teacher-led or heavily teacher-led. The trend is student-led (Montessori or some other similar type). It is mostly about memorizing all of those tens of thousands of words that are misspelled by different activities, some more fun than other, some more efficient than others.

 

As far as second language teaching is concerned, it forces oral mastery/teaching before reading mastery as written words spellings would interfere with pronunciation. One needs a mentor, a model. With the internet, things are a bit better now, but this has to be known by the educational  leader and put into the curriculum. No books should be shown or just the consonants of words AKA the skeleton of words at the most. Of course, it would help if the system was reformed, but English-speakers --no matter how nice they are-- will need to be forced into this. 

 

Thailand should move into subtitling English movies.

 

So, what will the test be like? Will it be an oral test? A written/reading test? Who will mark/give it? Who will create it? Who will approve it?

Edited July 5, 2017 by EnlightenedAtheist

[ZAKY]

He does not know that up to now all administration forms are written in thai only, ignoring this is making Thailand as a isolated country among the aseans 

[landtrout]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

That's right  you are not a native speaker, so don't tell me how to speak my own language. 

The story is about the need of government workers, especially heads, to have English speaking abilities. My post was to point out that bar girls have better English than highly paid government workers. 

Only a non native speaker would turn this into a grammar lesson and the anamolies of hiring a native speaker over a non native speaker. 

 

 

   As long as you've got the dictionary out professor, you might want to take a moment to look up "anamolies" "anomalies" as well.

     

Edited July 5, 2017 by landtrout

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

He means pointless because nobody will fail the test , brown envelopes etc.

I can understand his response if it is in that context although of course I cannot condone it.

 

I hope the concept of learning English is not believed to be pointless.

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, landtrout said:

 

   As long as you've got the dictionary out professor, you might want to take a moment to look up "anamolies" "anomalies" as well.

     

Oh god, if it's not the non native grammar police, it's the spelling police come to haunt my every move ????

The point is. ...

Do bar girls speak better english than highly paid government workers? ??

 

Oh no, I spelled english with a small e and horror of horrors used 3 question marks. ???

[JAG]

English tests make sense, I suppose they will all need a reasonable level of English to be able to constantly monitor all social media platforms - since they are rapidly becoming the main threat to national security. Otherwise that Singapore/Thai lad they have called up is going to be working very hard indeed.

 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

Oh god, if it's not the non native grammar police, it's the spelling police come to haunt my every move ????

The point is. ...

Do bar girls speak better english than highly paid government workers? ??

 

Oh no, I spelled english with a small e and horror of horrors used 3 question marks. ???

This grammar and spelling thing is very funny, but at some point one has to stop...

Some bar girls, as you call them, do speak good English while others don't...it generally depends on how long they have been working, and for the older ones, how long they have been living with an English speaking boyfriend before going back to the bar.

As far as government employees are concerned, they are far from being highly paid...many of them make between 5,000 and 10,000 baht a month, nothing to crow about.

Bar girls on the other hand, especially those who speak good English, can make much more than that...up to 60,000 baht a month, not including the monthly payments made by some naive foreign sponsors who believe that if they send money to their sweetheart, she will stop working in a bar!

 

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

This grammar and spelling thing is very funny, but at some point one has to stop...

Some bar girls, as you call them, do speak good English while others don't...it generally depends on how long they have been working, and for the older ones, how long they have been living with an English speaking boyfriend before going back to the bar.

As far as government employees are concerned, they are far from being highly paid...many of them make between 5,000 and 10,000 baht a month, nothing to crow about.

Bar girls on the other hand, especially those who speak good English, can make much more than that...up to 60,000 baht a month, not including the monthly payments made by some naive foreign sponsors who believe that if they send money to their sweetheart, she will stop working in a bar!

 

Government workers are certainly not paid 5 to 10 thousand baht per month. 

The starting salary with a bachelor degree is 15000 per month. masters starts at 25000. 

They recieve a 4 percent increase every year plus bonus based on the number of years worked. Not to mention great retirement , education and health benefits. 

High ranking army personal would recieve anywhere between 60 to 100,000 per month plus bonus. 

A foot boys starting salary is 10000 per month plus benefits. 

Recently the criteria for all government jobs requires  an English test.

It's good that army personal will be required to speak English, as they often must interact with foreigners for many things. 

[joecoolfrog]

19 hours ago, greenchair said:

That's right  you are not a native speaker, so don't tell me how to speak my own language. 

The story is about the need of government workers, especially heads, to have English speaking abilities. My post was to point out that bar girls have better English than highly paid government workers. 

Only a non native speaker would turn this into a grammar lesson and the anamolies of hiring a native speaker over a non native speaker. 

 

It wouldn't have dragged on if you had been humble enough to admit your mistake , I went to an English grammar school , you were clearly in error.

Edited July 5, 2017 by joecoolfrog

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

It wouldn't have dragged on if you had been humble enough to admit your mistake , I went to an English grammar school , you were clearly in error.

Why would I. 

It's childish.  We all type quick comments, leave words out, make spelling mistakes and grammatical mistakes. I'm not going to spend 10 minutes a post checking every detail to prevent  NS high so ing their English skills. in an English grammar school the criticism is appropriate. On a chat sight it is not. 

Especially when NS use it to promote their cause "my English is better than yours " . They may well be right, but this is not the place or the topic. 

[ben2talk]

23 hours ago, greenchair said:

I did not say emulate a job. 

I said, bar girls speak excellent English to emulate their job, which is to get foreign customers. 

Meaning English is equal to or matched to the need of their job. 

I guess if you are a non native speaker, I should have taken the loooonnnggg way and said. ..

Bar girls speak excellent English to emulate the needs of their job.

In which case I would not be able to use a comma and complete the sentence. ..

Which is getting foreign customers. 

Sadly confused. You know that it's better to show a little humility (as do most successful non-native learners of English) than to try to qualify yourself by saying 'I'm native so I MUST be right because it's MY language'.

 

The word 'imitate' might be something a monkey can do. If you climb a tree and pick a coconut, the monkey can 'copy' you. Imitate means copy - not only the action, but also the style and maybe do an impression of your voice when copying what you say also. The meaning is more like 'copy' and has no positive or negative connotations.

 

Try this:

 

Quote

If the bar girl sticks peas up her nose like the stewardess, she's simply imitating her. If she learns the language and posture and manages to carry that off, then she's emulating her.

You also failed to notice or acknowledge that the others are right when you are wrong. There is no point in criticising you, because you are not interested to learn. You are already a 'native speaker'.

 

When you then continue to post and show that you don't know simple English (words like 'web site') by typing 'chat sight' instead. Everyone makes simple mistakes, it's not a big deal to make one or two. You, however, are taking it way beyond any level that we can stomach.

 

I'd prefer to discuss this further with my Dutch friends who are not only far better teachers than many Natives, but also quite a bit more intelligent and willing to learn instead of trying to preach.

 

I would prefer to take on Prayut as a student than you.

I'm sure he could actually afford me. Should I post my number here or on Facebook?

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by ben2talk

[Brunolem]

13 hours ago, greenchair said:

Government workers are certainly not paid 5 to 10 thousand baht per month. 

The starting salary with a bachelor degree is 15000 per month. masters starts at 25000. 

They recieve a 4 percent increase every year plus bonus based on the number of years worked. Not to mention great retirement , education and health benefits. 

High ranking army personal would recieve anywhere between 60 to 100,000 per month plus bonus. 

A foot boys starting salary is 10000 per month plus benefits. 

Recently the criteria for all government jobs requires  an English test.

It's good that army personal will be required to speak English, as they often must interact with foreigners for many things. 

Where did you get these numbers? In some newspaper?

How many Thais do you personally know, who work in a public administration?

Do you really think that all these workers have bachelor or master degrees?

A great number of them have just managed to finish high school.

A village chief (Phu Yai Baan), who is a public servant, makes 8,000 baht a month, while his aides (Phu Chuay) make 3,000 baht a month.

An administrative worker, at tambon level, with a master degree...of whom I know 2 living next door to me, makes 15,000 baht a month.

At the highest level, an MP in Bangkok was making 60,000 baht a month, but that was some years ago...I don't have recent data for them.

Public school teachers also make very little money, as do cops and many others.

Being a public servant in Thailand is not like working for Goldman Sachs, as you seem to believe...

 

 

[greenchair]

3 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Where did you get these numbers? In some newspaper?

How many Thais do you personally know, who work in a public administration?

Do you really think that all these workers have bachelor or master degrees?

A great number of them have just managed to finish high school.

A village chief (Phu Yai Baan), who is a public servant, makes 8,000 baht a month, while his aides (Phu Chuay) make 3,000 baht a month.

An administrative worker, at tambon level, with a master degree...of whom I know 2 living next door to me, makes 15,000 baht a month.

At the highest level, an MP in Bangkok was making 60,000 baht a month, but that was some years ago...I don't have recent data for them.

Public school teachers also make very little money, as do cops and many others.

Being a public servant in Thailand is not like working for Goldman Sachs, as you seem to believe...

 

 

I have been married to a Thai government worker for 22 years. 

I know. In addition I have worked with thai government teachers for 22 years. So I know their true salaries. 

The salaries you are mentioning are standard straight out of school starting salaries. 

But with the 4 percent increase, the provident fund and yearly bonus, it soon goes up to a high salary after a few years service. 

Did you know that if a Thai teacher gives 20 years of service, they can retire and get 20000 per month for the rest of their lives. And can take another job also. 

A police officer I think receives a similar package. 

But anyway, to the point. 

These are high ranking military officers, you cannot compare the salary with a freshman. 

Just a wee note, maybe the people you talk to don't want you to know their true salary. 

[inThailand]

After buying subs, tanks, helicopters, etc is there any money left in the military till to pay for English tests?

 

If there is, I doubt the Chiefs would comply to anything that could result in loss of face. 

[Wim1954]

4 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Where did you get these numbers? In some newspaper?

How many Thais do you personally know, who work in a public administration?

Do you really think that all these workers have bachelor or master degrees?

A great number of them have just managed to finish high school.

A village chief (Phu Yai Baan), who is a public servant, makes 8,000 baht a month, while his aides (Phu Chuay) make 3,000 baht a month.

An administrative worker, at tambon level, with a master degree...of whom I know 2 living next door to me, makes 15,000 baht a month.

At the highest level, an MP in Bangkok was making 60,000 baht a month, but that was some years ago...I don't have recent data for them.

Public school teachers also make very little money, as do cops and many others.

Being a public servant in Thailand is not like working for Goldman Sachs, as you seem to believe...

 

 

So you know a lot of Thai government people or also from newspaper internet maybe ?

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Wim1954 said:

So you know a lot of Thai government people or also from newspaper internet maybe ?

Yes, I do know quite a number of them...actually they are my neighbors...the village chief, one of his aide, a policeman, a few who work for the tambon administration and so on...

 

As Greenchair writes above, it is true that they get some extras and perks, on top of their meager salaries...yet his 20,000 baht example, after 20 years of service, is much more realistic than the amonts he was talking about before.

 

Among the perks is the fact that they can borrow money at very low cost.

 

Yet, when it is all said and done, one doesn't become wealthy by working as a civil servant...working honestly of course...

 

[joecoolfrog]

13 hours ago, greenchair said:

Why would I. 

It's childish.  We all type quick comments, leave words out, make spelling mistakes and grammatical mistakes. I'm not going to spend 10 minutes a post checking every detail to prevent  NS high so ing their English skills. in an English grammar school the criticism is appropriate. On a chat sight it is not. 

Especially when NS use it to promote their cause "my English is better than yours " . They may well be right, but this is not the place or the topic. 

I agree it is churlish to pick up on spelling errors or grammar , I was simply commenting on your reaction.

You have spent far more time justifying yourself than would have been the case if you had just laughed off the original comment.

It appears you have somewhat gone native , save face at all costs eh 555.

[joecoolfrog]

On Wednesday, July 05, 2017 at 7:13 AM, scottiejohn said:

I can understand his response if it is in that context although of course I cannot condone it.

 

I hope the concept of learning English is not believed to be pointless.

It is vital in the long term if Thailand is to prosper , that does not mean it is a huge priority for the current administration.

[greenchair]

10 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

I agree it is churlish to pick up on spelling errors or grammar , I was simply commenting on your reaction.

You have spent far more time justifying yourself than would have been the case if you had just laughed off the original comment.

It appears you have somewhat gone native , save face at all costs eh 555.

It is a sad and insecure person that spends their time perusing chat sites to correct grammatical posts. Even worse is the academically inept person that chases another poster around a site trying to force them to confess a grammatical error to increase their own ego. 

My child Brought home an English test full of grammatical errors, I don't feel the need to go to the school and force the teacher to bow down to me. I would rather focus on the content and intention of the post. These grammar/spelling police are pathetic and I will not fan their pathetic egos. Nor will I fan yours. 

555 

[todlad]

I am happy if someone sees and corrects my mistakes. I call it education.

 

You don't complain when your child brings home rubbish? Well, then, you bad man. No likee bad man. You go school isn't it.

Edited July 7, 2017 by todlad

[Negita43]

Only 3 words needed

 

Take, Aim, Fire  

[landtrout]

11 hours ago, todlad said:

I am happy if someone sees and corrects my mistakes. I call it education.

 

You don't complain when your child brings home rubbish? Well, then, you bad man. No likee bad man. You go school isn't it.

 

     If a semi-literate jackass is fond of tossing around fairly common multisyllabic  English words ("emulate" and "anomaly", etc...) without having the foggiest notion of what those words actually mean in his "native tongue", that's neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things. Likewise, an inability to spell common English words ( "receive" or "personnel", for example...) is not anomalous on these boards. Regrettably, it's become more the rule than the exception. This particular poster's unwillingness (or inability) to accept gentle correction regarding his obvious shortcomings (as would you or I, gratefully....) is probably a sign of the times.

 

    The only reason that this poster's numerous and egregious errors have been called to attention is that he's been using these rather childish fumblings to bolster an impassioned argument that Thai folks (without an exposure to the English language that he claims to have been afforded...) ought  to aspire to emulate his imagined linguistic proficiency.

 

   Saints, preserve and protect us!

 

  I know of no Thai bar girl who would ever  think to abuse the English language in the fashion that he does, and I'm acquainted with half a dozen (admittedly, low level...) Thai government officials who would be perfectly able to accurately define both "emulate" and "anomaly". To be fair..... I couldn't vouch for their ability to spell either.

 

  Here's the thing: You can gently point a jackass towards the Oxford English Dictionary. But.... it's written in English. And.... he's a jackass.

 

 

     LT

 

[sandemara]

On 7/4/2017 at 4:58 PM, greenchair said:

Well I did and it said to match to. 

So English to emulate their job would mean having enough English skills to match the need of their job. Their job is conning foreigner to part with their money in a very nice way. 

Sorry that you don't have the English skill to understand emulate. Perhaps you need some lessons down at the bar.

Hard to help a combination of stubbornness and  stupidity. Don't try arguing with a moron. They'll drag you down to their level and win every time.