NATO allies look for reassurance from Trump in Warsaw

[Andaman Al]

15 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

It was rather a good line, worthy of Churchill if I say so myself.

So now you agree with me that this whole anti-Russia thing, and the continued existence of NATO, is mere paranoia? I'm making progress then.

No, I disagree with you completely. I asked you to tweet the line you like so much to Trump. He is the one seeding paranoia and concocted insecurity. He is the one that is also trying to trivialise the threat that Russia poses to western democracy. Putin has the best of all worlds now. He has unimaginable wealth and now he wants Russia and all it's vassal states back where they belong firmly under his long term dictatorial control.

[boomerangutang]

1 minute ago, ddavidovsky said:

I repeat: There's no more dangerous world than one led by paranoia and concocted insecurity.

Told you it was a good line.

Perhaps you're as smart and well-versed as Trump when it comes to goings-on in areas near Russia.

in an interview in 2016, Trump was asked about Russians' intentions re; Ukraine.  Trump said, "He's not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. He's not gonna go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down,"

 

Note......that was said after two years of continual Russian incursions into Ukraine.

 

To say Trump is a dummy on world affairs would be denigrating to crash test dummies.

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Nope. Can you just articulate it in actual words? All I'm getting so far is a perceived threat to the the Baltic States, and some links to a nationalist lunatic no one in the west has ever heard of. You're saying the existence of NATO is justified on that account?

 

There's no more dangerous world than one led by paranoia and concocted insecurity.

 

NATO is out of date. It was created to counter the threat of communism which was at one time trying to take over the world like Dr Evil.

Disingenuous and dishonest as usual.

The perceived threat from Russia does not pertain to the Baltic states alone, they are simply closer to the Russia. Dugin is hardly a nobody, as even a cursory reading of links supplied would make clear. I do not base NATO's relevance on your faux assertions, but on the motivations behind making them. Namely, divide and conquer.

 

Throwing "paranoia" about, hinting at "concocted insecurity" is not an argument, but demagoguery. Guess the sociology spiel will be making an appearance soon enough too.

 

NATO was created to counter the threat presented by the USSR. The USSR is no more, correct. That doesn't make Russia benevolent nor does it imply a need for NATO to be dismantled.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Morch

[ddavidovsky]

11 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

No, I disagree with you completely. I asked you to tweet the line you like so much to Trump. He is the one seeding paranoia and concocted insecurity. He is the one that is also trying to trivialise the threat that Russia poses to western democracy. Putin has the best of all worlds now. He has unimaginable wealth and now he wants Russia and all it's vassal states back where they belong firmly under his long term dictatorial control.

No he doesn't. That's paranoia. The former Soviet republics are the least of the world's problems. Just leave Russia alone on that one - where ethnic Russians are involved, it's their business.

 

For some reason though, it obviously suits the west to keep up the narrative that Russia is a threat. Paranoia and old habits are the only reasons I'm getting here, and they're more dangerous than they're worth.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by ddavidovsky

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

No he doesn't. That's paranoia. The former Soviet republics are the least of the world's problems. Just leave Russia alone on that one - where ethnic Russians are involved, it's their business.

 

For some reason though, it obviously suits the west to keep up the narrative that Russia is a threat. Paranoia and old habits are the only reasons I'm getting here, and they're more dangerous than they're worth.

 

 

All you've got on offer are denials, and labeling anything not conforming to your narrative as "paranoia" etc. Not much of an argument.

[ddavidovsky]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

Disingenuous and dishonest as usual.

The perceived threat from Russia does not pertain to the Baltic states alone, they are simply closer to the Russia. Dugin is hardly a nobody, as even a cursory reading of links supplied would make clear. I do not base NATO's relevance on your faux assertions, but on the motivations behind making them. Namely, divide and conquer.

 

Throwing "paranoia" about, hinting at "concocted insecurity" is not an argument, but demagoguery. Guess the sociology spiel will be making an appearance soon enough too.

 

NATO was created to counter the threat presented by the USSR. The USSR is no more, correct. That doesn't make Russia benevolent nor does it imply a need for NATO to be dismantled.

Kindly stick to the discussion rather than personal baiting.

 

So you stick by your claim that one right-wing nutter justifies the continued existence of NATO? No other justification provided, other than a vague sense of perceived threat (=paranoia).

 

Your last paragraph is bizarre and illogical.

I'm  was hoping for some better quality debate here, but I'm hearing nothing.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Kindly stick to the discussion rather than personal baiting.

 

So you stick by your claim that one right-wing nutter justifies the continued existence of NATO? No other justification provided, other than a vague sense of perceived threat (=paranoia).

 

Your last paragraph is bizarre and illogical.

I'm  was hoping for some better quality debate here, but I'm hearing nothing.

 

Kindly cease your low-class debate antics and I'll be happy to oblige. And perhaps drop tossing "paranoia" about, while at it.

 

I made no such claim (that would be the second time you twist my words). I gave Dugin as an example to prevailing ideological trends within Russia. That you dishonestly attempt to minimize his impact or the relevance of his view, is quite telling.

 

My last paragraph is clear and logical.

That NATO was formed for purpose (A) does not imply that NATO ought to be disbanded if (A) morphed into a different threat. NATO, for all its faults, is a working proposition. Better to have it in place for times when the need arises, then to disband it and try to reform it again later on.

 

And as Mom said: you hear what you want to hear.

 

Guess we'll not be treated to reports of Russian interventions in Europe's politics, trying to influence election results, manipulating media, and the like. Must be European paranoia which causes them to try and address such issues.

 

 

[Andaman Al]

50 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Just leave Russia alone on that one - where ethnic Russians are involved, it's their business.

We would be far better off leaving things alone where ethnic Arabs are involved, it's their business. Oh...Oil and money! silly me.

 

Russia is a huge threat to Western security and if you do not consider that then you completely underestimate our adversary. Maybe you have fallen for Putin and his bare chest horse riding.

[Scott]

Continued nonsensical trolling and simply baiting others into an argument will earn a suspension.   I suggest that others simply stop replying to troll posts.  

[boomerangutang]

12 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

No he doesn't. That's paranoia. The former Soviet republics are the least of the world's problems. Just leave Russia alone on that one - where ethnic Russians are involved, it's their business.

For some reason though, it obviously suits the west to keep up the narrative that Russia is a threat. Paranoia and old habits are the only reasons I'm getting here, and they're more dangerous than they're worth.

Are you on Putin's staff?  

                                   There are about 13 former states of the USSR which are now independent countries. 

Russia is like a harem boss who had 20 wives, but 13 divorced him and want to go live independently.  Russia wants them back.   It doesn't matter whether we use the word USSR or Russia, the fact remains that Russia wants to put the broken egg back together again.   NATO is the biggest impediment to that.

 

                         That's why Putin put his people to work so diligently in 2016 to get NATO-hating Trump elected.   The chess pieces are falling into place well for Putin - though I doubt Putin knew what a complete ding-dong Trump would be as prez.    Still, Trump is a useful tool for Putin.    Plus, the more Trump cripples the USA (on every issue he touches), the better Putin looks in comparison - from a worldwide perspective. 

 

                            When Putin tires of Trump, he will release some pee tapes or whatever.  He knows how to manipulate right wing voters in the US - mainly because they're so easily duped.  They believe every fake ridiculous story that comes out, as long as it bolsters their prejudices.  

 

                                What's next on their agenda?    Putin's agents can release fake stories that the Wash Post and NY Times secretly want to take all Americans' guns away.  Trump fans will suck it all up, and shout, "You see.  I knew it all the time.   The NY Times and Washington post are going to send guards to our houses to confiscate all out guns!!!"

[RobFord]

Someone please explain to me why Russia are still perceived as a threat to the west? I mean to the west (without dragging up Ukraine, which is an irredentism issue between those two states and is nobody else's business).
 
Russia is no longer communist, they're Christian, the Soviet empire is over, they have no plans or incentive to invade or attack Europe, and Russia and the US have a common interest in suppressing Chinese expansionism. The fear is out of date and counterproductive.

"Someone please explain to me why Russia are still perceived as a threat to the west?"

555.

Maybe because Putin regards the break up of the former Soviet Union as the 'greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century'?

Those former Soviet Republics are terrified by Putin and becoming NATO members as fast as they can, yet YOU support him.

<deleted> is with that anyway?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/06/john-bolton/did-vladimir-putin-call-breakup-ussr-greatest-geop/


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[thaihome]

The Racial and Religious Paranoia of Trump's Warsaw Speech

 

In his speech in Poland on Thursday, Donald Trump referred 10 times to “the West” and five times to “our civilization.” His white nationalist supporters will understand exactly what he means. It’s important that other Americans do, too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/trump-speech-poland/532866/