Digital Nomads

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, perthperson said:

Socialist Pyramid Schemes as you suggest eventually collapse .........................................

I hear where you are coming from - I am not a socialist, either (hate forced-collectivism, generally).  But this isn't a "guaranteed income" - it would be consumed by taxes paid on minimum goods/services purchased.  If someone manages to scrape by really cheap, they might "save a little" of it - but that's a small tradeoff for getting the govt out of peoples private lives, and ensuring everyone pays a fair-share of tax - no "shelters" etc for certain classes, while others pay through-the-nose.

[bkkcanuck8]

1 minute ago, perthperson said:

 

Socialist Pyramid Schemes as you suggest eventually collapse .........................................

So one way it is deleterious on the poor people, but then on the other side you are saying these socialist pyramid schemes eventually collapse - you are being logically inconsistent.  It is not a social program, it is an admission that you cannot get blood from a stone.... if you take tax from people when they cannot afford the basics, you will have to give it back to them in social support services later on.... this just makes it very direct...  You don't have the money to pay the taxes that we need from you so we will give you the money to pay the taxes so you won't be out of pocket.  No difference than your "basic deduction" on income tax.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

 

What part of the Thai tax legislation on foreign income do you not understand?

The law is that foreign income is taxable if remitted to Thailand in the year earned, if someone does not do that then they are in breach of the  law, however if they do comply then they are fully tax compliant - just like any other Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, with foreign derived income.

Digital nomads can't "choose to pay tax wherever they like" - they are subject to the same tax rules as everybody else. Yes they can structure their finances to minimise tax, but this is not tax evasion.

Can you explain your post.

 

I am fully aware of the tax laws relating to pensioners in Thailand. If pensioners in Thailand chose to immediately transfer money as soon as it is paid, then it is taxable. I know this so why think that I do not? Who has even questioned this? No one, just you.

 

I agree, Digital Nomads by law cannot chose where to pay their taxes and are subject to the same laws but it seems you do not understand what a Digital Nomad is.

 

These Digital rodents are taking advantage of countries like Thailand and paying their taxes in whichever country they declare their residence, If they declare any earnings at all which I doubt, There are many countries that offer low tax structures and where it is relatively easy to obtain residency. The cost of living in these countries is very  high so that is why these tax evaders chose to live in countries like Thailand.

 

You seem very confused as to what the discussion is about.

[micmichd]

21 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I see many pensioners complain vehemently that they are not covered by NHS because "they paid into it all their life".... but NHS is not a savings program it is insurance and by leaving the country you are no longer eligible for insurance (as it should be).

That's a political question. UK could make a social security contract with Thailand if both sides agree. That would mean NHS would pay Brits' health cost in Thailand where some 20,000 nurses wait for a permanent contract. This would probably be cheaper than the NHS within the UK. So, a typical win-win situation for both sides. 

[Flustered]

8 minutes ago, blorg said:

And why should pensioner pests not pay tax here?

Because pensioners are not working and denying a Thai the opportunity of that work. because pensioners do not need a work permit as they are not working.

 

If you cannot see the stupidity of comparing pensioners to Digital Rodents then i would hate to be anyone who relies on you for work input as it would be so flawed as to be useless.

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

There are many countries that offer low tax structures and where it is relatively easy to obtain residency. The cost of living in these countries is very  high so that is why these tax evaders chose to live in countries like Thailand.

Not so easy for your average Nomad since they would not be well healed enough to qualify for residency, the cost of setting up a corporation, etc.

 

The digital nomads that "evade" taxes are counting on them getting lost between jurisdictions.... but for me that would be near impossible since the amount I bill is above the threshold for money laundering reporting (of which a copy gets sent to the Revenue Agency).

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[rwdrwdrwd]

12 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Can you explain your post.

 

I am fully aware of the tax laws relating to pensioners in Thailand. If pensioners in Thailand chose to immediately transfer money as soon as it is paid, then it is taxable. I know this so why think that I do not? Who has even questioned this? No one, just you.

 

I agree, Digital Nomads by law cannot chose where to pay their taxes and are subject to the same laws but it seems you do not understand what a Digital Nomad is.

 

These Digital rodents are taking advantage of countries like Thailand and paying their taxes in whichever country they declare their residence, If they declare any earnings at all which I doubt, There are many countries that offer low tax structures and where it is relatively easy to obtain residency. The cost of living in these countries is very  high so that is why these tax evaders chose to live in countries like Thailand.

 

You seem very confused as to what the discussion is about.

My point is that the people that are termed 'digital nomads', if they spend 183 days a year in Thailand, are treated in exactly the same manner as any other Thai tax resident (including expat pensioners) in terms of tax. Most crucially, nobody can 'declare residence' elsewhere to avoid being liable for tax in Thailand - tax residence is simply determined by the time spent in the country.

I think you are conflating 'digital nomads' with 'tax nomads' - they are very different terms.

Edited July 19, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[lkv]

14 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Can you explain your post.

 

I am fully aware of the tax laws relating to pensioners in Thailand. If pensioners in Thailand chose to immediately transfer money as soon as it is paid, then it is taxable. I know this so why think that I do not? Who has even questioned this? No one, just you.

 

I agree, Digital Nomads by law cannot chose where to pay their taxes and are subject to the same laws but it seems you do not understand what a Digital Nomad is.

 

These Digital rodents are taking advantage of countries like Thailand and paying their taxes in whichever country they declare their residence, If they declare any earnings at all which I doubt, There are many countries that offer low tax structures and where it is relatively easy to obtain residency. The cost of living in these countries is very  high so that is why these tax evaders chose to live in countries like Thailand.

 

You seem very confused as to what the discussion is about.

 

11 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Because pensioners are not working and denying a Thai the opportunity of that work. because pensioners do not need a work permit as they are not working.

 

If you cannot see the stupidity of comparing pensioners to Digital Rodents then i would hate to be anyone who relies on you for work input as it would be so flawed as to be useless.

Thailand provides indeed a climate where various tax efficient schemes are possible. Although it's not the only country that has loopholes in the tax laws. 

 

I don't understand what the problem is really. Is it an ethical problem of some sort? Thai kids get a poor education because DNs don't pay taxes?

 

Talk to the current administration (generals, police etc), see what taxes they pay, see what their net worth is (nobody seems to care in Thailand that a policeman has saved 500 million baht out of his salary), and then we can talk about it.

 

At least some of us understand the law and try to find legal loopholes, Thais here are avoiding / evading tax blatantly.

Edited July 19, 2017 by lkv

[micmichd]

26 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I don't disagree with the nature of Thailand's labor law - it is archaic - but it is the law.  But taking Thailand out of the picture would only push those same entrepreneurs, elsewhere.

 

So, how do you feel about nations using the VAT tax, instead of the Income Tax, so that this loophole can be closed, without forcing people to be stuck somewhere they don't want to live?

Switching from income tax to VAT tax would probably be the only way to establish something like a social technocracy. 

Remember, the phenomenon of the digital nomad is a consequence of technological progress (not the evil mind of some digital nomads). So, if you want to make it social, you have to tax the technological progress. 

[bkkcanuck8]

10 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Because pensioners are not working and denying a Thai the opportunity of that work. because pensioners do not need a work permit as they are not working.

 

If you cannot see the stupidity of comparing pensioners to Digital Rodents then i would hate to be anyone who relies on you for work input as it would be so flawed as to be useless.

It is a big stretch to say a digital nomad is denying a Thai the opportunity to work since for you not to get into trouble locally, you cannot work for a company that is a Thai company, has Thai operations, or has any physical operations locally.  It would be more correct that the immigrations department treating the digital nomads as foreign and not legitimizing it completely -- is depriving Thais of work -- since as soon as you employ a local you have local operations and are considered domestic.... something that no-one in their right mind would do for freelance or contract work.  And if you say statistically there is a possibility that if you did not do it a Thai could, I would also state that the odds are much less of that happening (170+ countries) than the lack of legitimization preventing employment to Thais because of bureaucracy.  

[perthperson]

2 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

It is a big stretch to say a digital nomad is denying a Thai the opportunity to work since for you not to get into trouble locally, you cannot work for a company that is a Thai company, has Thai operations, or has any physical operations locally.  It would be more correct that the immigrations department treating the digital nomads as foreign and not legitimizing it completely -- is depriving Thais of work -- since as soon as you employ a local you have local operations and are considered domestic.... something that no-one in their right mind would do for freelance or contract work.  And if you say statistically there is a possibility that if you did not do it a Thai could, I would also state that the odds are much less of that happening (170+ countries) than the lack of legitimization preventing employment to Thais because of bureaucracy.  

India has many well educated IT specialists  so when is your country going of offer visa exempt entry to Indians? ... The Indians would love to swarm in as digtal experts -- pay no tax -- and live the good life ;;;; A good idea? 

[nasanews]

I have plenty of time to spend online to get more money even though I don't need it to survive, I could use extra cash but how?

Edited July 19, 2017 by nasanews

[Flustered]

Just to recap.

 

Digital Nomads want to be able to travel and work wherever they like. They are happy to pay some form of tax in their country of official residence but do not want to be taxed in the country they are living and working.

 

They consider that the tax they pay locally for accommodation, food transport etc. is more than enough to allow them to enjoy all the benefits that living in that country offers to a non resident.

 

They feel that they are the future of work and employment and as such the existing tax laws of these countries are archaic and should be changed to suit the need of Digital Nomads.

 

Because of the nature of their work, Digital Nomads do not need work permits and can use tourist visas as a means of entry and stay.

 

Have I missed anything?

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, perthperson said:

India has many well educated IT specialists  so when is your country going of offer visa exempt entry to Indians? ... The Indians would love to swarm in as digtal experts -- pay no tax -- and live the good life ;;;; A good idea? 

As soon as they drop below the standard threshold of people overstaying or staying illegally (I assume India is not restricted from visa waiver because of American concerns).  

 

Indians can get tourist visas to Canada -- just like I can get a tourist visa to Thailand.  

 

Indians could go to Canada and visit if they want, and work for a company which is outside of Canada and has no Canadian operations etc.  and do work for an Indian company - but the cost of living is more than India so it would be more difficult.  

 

Indians can enter Canada and work illegally and never be at risk of getting caught since immigration does not do raids (except if involved in human trafficking). they don't set up check points within a country... so if you chose to do it.... they would have no problem staying forever if they never wanted to leave.  

 

Being that I don't agree with trade agreements without free movement of labour... I am actually a big proponent of free movement of labour.  

[Flustered]

32 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

My point is that the people that are termed 'digital nomads', if they spend 183 days a year in Thailand, are treated in exactly the same manner as any other Thai tax resident (including expat pensioners) in terms of tax. Most crucially, nobody can 'declare residence' elsewhere to avoid being liable for tax in Thailand - tax residence is simply determined by the time spent in the country.

I think you are conflating 'digital nomads' with 'tax nomads' - they are very different terms.

I see your thinking but you do not understand what a Digital Nomad is.

 

A Digital Nomad is a person who uses the internet/cloud sources to work while travelling and enjoying different countries.

 

Although normally resident in their home country, they take advantage of other countries to enjoy a way of life more in keeping with their requirements. The only tax they pay in these other countries are local taxes. Any money earnt while living and working in these other countries is not taxed in them but in the country they declare it.

 

In short, a Digital Nomad works and lives in a country other than the one he/she declares as residence for tax purposes. 

 

In countries such as Thailand, they are in breach of Thai laws which are very clear on the matter and in doing so could end up in big trouble. They are denying Thailand tax on monies earnt while living and working in the country.

 

If any Digital Nomad thinks they do not need a work permit for Thailand, let them go to the Thai authorities and see what will happen.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Flustered

[perthperson]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Because of the nature of their work, Digital Nomads

 

And the really strange thing is they call themselves "nomads" whereas , in reality they are not. They never move -- more like sh*t stuck to a blanket. 

[Flustered]

Just now, perthperson said:

 

And the really strange thing is they call themselves "nomads" whereas , in reality they are not. They never move -- more like sh*t stuck to a blanket. 

100% agree.

 

 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I see your thinking but you do not understand what a Digital Nomad is.

 

A Digital Nomad is a person who uses the internet/cloud sources to work while travelling and enjoying different countries.

 

Although normally resident in their home country, they take advantage of other countries to enjoy a way of life more in keeping with their requirements. The only tax they pay in these other countries are local taxes. Any money earnt while living and working in these other countries is not taxed in them but in the country they declare it.

 

In short, a Digital Nomad works and lives in a country other than the one he/she declares as residence for tax purposes. 

 

In countries such as Thailand, they are in breach of Thai laws which are very clear on the matter and in doing so could end up in big trouble. They are denying Thailand tax on monies earnt while living and working in the country.

 

If any Digital Nomad thinks they do not need a work permit for Thailand, let them go to the Thai authorities and see what will happen.

Thai immigration authorities have already stated that as far as they are concerned -- if they are not making money locally or from local services etc. they deem the income is from foreign employment not domestic and are not interested in them.  These laws tend to be all encompassing, and it all comes down to interpretation and enforcement as to where the line is drawn.  That line might change -- and if that is the case ... currently HCM is a hot place that is a popular destination for digital nomads in the region.  

 

So it is not Thai immigration authorities that are all in a huff.... it is a bunch of foreigners that have no residency (as in permanent residency) status that are getting their panties in a knot.

[Flustered]

Just now, bkkcanuck8 said:

Thai immigration authorities have already stated that as far as they are concerned -- if they are not making money locally or from local services etc. they deem the income is from foreign employment not domestic and are not interested in them.  These laws tend to be all encompassing, and it all comes down to interpretation and enforcement as to where the line is drawn.  That line might change -- and if that is the case ... currently HCM is a hot place that is a popular destination for digital nomads in the region.  

 

So it is not Thai immigration authorities that are all in a huff.... it is a bunch of foreigners that have no residency (as in permanent residency) status that are getting their panties in a knot.

So can you link us to this official Thai statement ?

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, Flustered said:

So can you link us to this official Thai statement ?

No, but it was several years ago .... Chiang Mai....  after they raided co-working space full of foreigners paraded them down to the immigration office (because I think a spat with the wife of the owner of the place) ... then let everyone go and apologized -- it was all a big misunderstanding and then stated they had no interest as long as they had another valid visa (most of the people were on either tourist visas).

[Sirbergan]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Reading the previous posts from these Digital Nomads on this and other threads drives home one very salient fact.

 

Digital Nomads consider themselves above tax laws and are entitled to travel and live wherever they like and also chose to pay taxes wherever they like. They are constantly asking for advice on how to obtain visas through the back door because they have used up the legitimate route.

 

Great, just continue but don't cry foul when arrested one day when working away at your laptop by the swimming pool or bar of your hotel in Thailand for not having a work permit.

 

You can spin and spin but whatever way you look at it, working over the internet while in Thailand (or other countries) is work and you need a work permit. Also as it could be argued that this type of work could be carried out by a Thai, you are on even dodgier ground.

 

It will not be long before someone posts that they have been arrested for this and posts on TVF "what can I do?"

 

You pays your money and takes your chance. No sympathy at all for anyone caught.

One can also argue that the government is at fault in many of the cases, seeing there is no reasonable option for those digital nomads to actually pay their taxes and work legally. Hiring 4 employees full-time is not a viable option for most freelancers.

 

The first few years I worked as a freelance translator, I really wanted to get a work permit and pay taxes – but couldn't. I am sure there are plenty others in the same situation. Until the Work permit rules are changed, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

Before you call me vermin – I actually run a company with 18 employees now (established in 2011).

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

One can also argue that the government is at fault in many of the cases, seeing there is no reasonable option for those digital nomads to actually pay their taxes and work legally. Hiring 4 employees full-time is not a viable option for most freelancers.

 

The first few years I worked as a freelance translator, I really wanted to get a work permit and pay taxes – but couldn't. I am sure there are plenty others in the same situation. Until the Work permit rules are changed, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

Before you call me vermin – I actually run a company with 18 employees now (established in 2011).

I am sorry, but you are vermin.... you earned money while working illegally and therefore the fruit of the forbidden tree means that you should be forced to close and fire all your employees and start legally 

[micmichd]

51 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Because pensioners are not working and denying a Thai the opportunity of that work. because pensioners do not need a work permit as they are not working.

 

If you cannot see the stupidity of comparing pensioners to Digital Rodents then i would hate to be anyone who relies on you for work input as it would be so flawed as to be useless.

Pensioners have already worked for their money and been taxed. 

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Pensioners have already worked for their money and been taxed. 

They may have earned their money but they have not been taxed on all that earned money.... before they are allowed in they should be forced to wrap it up and pay all taxes  on that earned but untaxed tax shelter balance... and only then be allowed to reside locally. Sorry, was that an arbitrary hoop some foreigner with no standing just made ? 

Edited July 19, 2017 by bkkcanuck8

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, Sirbergan said:

One can also argue that the government is at fault in many of the cases, seeing there is no reasonable option for those digital nomads to actually pay their taxes and work legally. Hiring 4 employees full-time is not a viable option for most freelancers.

 

The first few years I worked as a freelance translator, I really wanted to get a work permit and pay taxes – but couldn't. I am sure there are plenty others in the same situation. Until the Work permit rules are changed, I wouldn't be so quick to judge.

 

Before you call me vermin – I actually run a company with 18 employees now (established in 2011).

You run a perfectly legitimate company, why would anyone call you vermin? However, if you know the law about employment and chose to ignore it, earn money and withhold taxes then yes you are vermin., but you did not.

 

Being a DM in Thailand is not a grey area, it is against Thai law as they do not have work permits and they are doing work that could be carried out by a Thai.

 

The reference by bk to the Thai Authorities saying it was OK to work as a DM turned out to be hearsay and misunderstanding on who said what.

http://hobowithalaptop.com/is-it-legal-to-be-a-digital-nomad-333

 

No one in any position of authority has ever said it is OK to work as a Digital Nomad.

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

They may have earned their money but they have not been taxed on all that earned money.... before they are allowed in they should be forced to wrap it up and pay all taxes  on that earned but untaxed tax shelter balance... and only then be allowed to reside locally.

You are now trying to muddy the waters.

 

Thai law is very clear on money brought into the country. 

 

We know you are a DM and want to work where, how and when you like disregarding local laws but even DMs have to obey the laws of the country they live in or do you think yourself above these laws?

[HooHaa]

1 hour ago, lkv said:

Let the authorities decide who's a tax evader and who isn't. Until then, many of us will be using tax efficient solutions as we deem fit. :)

 

damn right.

i personally have never believed that working hard to pay your taxes was particularly admirable.

quite the contrary, in fact.

[rwdrwdrwd]

31 minutes ago, Flustered said:

 

In short, a Digital Nomad works and lives in a country other than the one he/she declares as residence for tax purposes. 

 

That is not what a digital nomad is. It is simply a term for someone who is able to travel and earn their income online.

Nobody can live in Thailand and not be tax resident, as I addressed in the prior post.

Digital nomads cannot 'declare residence' elsewhere, if they spend > 183 days in Thailand, they are tax resident here, and they are subject to Thai income tax on the portion of income earned in the subject tax year that is remitted to Thailand in that tax year - exactly the same as any other Thai tax resident.

Edited July 19, 2017 by rwdrwdrwd

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

That is simply not what a digital nomad is. Nobody can live in Thailand and not be tax resident, as I addressed in the prior post.

Just ignore the rest of my post and only quote one line, I fully explained what a Digital Nomad is.

 

Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? I never questioned the legality of tax residency in Thailand, just tax evasion by DMs.

 

 

[perthperson]

3 minutes ago, rwdrwdrwd said:

That is simply not what a digital nomad is. Nobody can live in Thailand and not be tax resident, as I addressed in the prior post.

What is your definition of a "nomad"  Are you claiming they are upright, honest, people who pay tax in a country where they are 'tax resident' ?  

Do these nomad pests pay tax anywhere?