Britain says free movement of people with EU will end after Brexit

[Grouse]

23 hours ago, nauseus said:

I re-educated myself months before the referendum and was shocked to find what I did. I ignored the mainstream lies and propaganda (from both sides) and tried to research sensible reading, speeches and documentaries. Arguments with far more actual facts were put by the leave campaign - remain side counters against these arguments were surprisingly lacking (I did try to find these for balance but couldn't). "Safer and stronger together" just didn't cut it for me.

 

The main leave points made by various campaigners (none seriously challenged or disputed by the leave side) were:

 

Sovereignty - UK sovereignty has been steadily eroded since 1973. The EEC common market mutated, "ever closer", to becoming a federal state, which the people of the UK did surely did not approve in the referendum of 1975. The broad population wrongly assumed that the EEC was purely economic and trading arrangement. The majority of British people do not wish their country to become a cluster of regions within a European federal state. EU bureaucracy and power is centralizing and eroding decision making powers from both national and local governments. The introduction of qualified majority voting allows decisions to be made against the interest of a single member. Most Britons still value their sovereignty and have shown that they want to be British. 

 

Democracy - the British system of government and constitution could be improved but it is still far preferable to this EU structure, with a selected group of commissioners basically running the show. Several of these commissioners are just second-rate so-called politicians put into place by already established pals or by arrangement and/or agreement with other allies. The anti-democratic nature of the EU government and the significant rewards of being part of it encourage a dictatorial mind-set and large scale corruption - the 1999 commission fraud scandal is enough evidence of that! The EU commission is the only EU body with power to propose new laws and regulations and at least 10,000 of its 33,000 "advisors" are estimated to be paid more than £70,000 p.a., so there is certainly advantage to being a loyal and obedient servant! There are obviously much higher rewards enjoyed by anyone above "advisor" pay grade.  

 

Law /Justice - UK law is secondary to EU law, which comprises more than 50% of new laws. The majority of (informed) British people showed that they don't want that. They also do not want to lose their freedoms and rights e.g. to be presumed innocent of any crime before being proved guilty and they rejected a regime of corpus juris. The majority of British people showed that they do not want the imposition of endless regulations and laws that are not made in the UK but which override British Law. 

 

The EU can't even abide by its own rules. EU (Dublin) Regulation(s) specify that asylum applications must be processed at the point of entry into the EU. Greece and Italy have failed to fulfill these obligations and assistance from the EU is farcical, especially by Merkel who has done the opposite. Parts of the Lisbon Treaty have been ignored in order to keep Greece afloat.

 

Immigration - needs complete control now. Freedom of movement used to be for EC/EU workers only, now its the whole show. UK housing and all services cannot keep pace with the ridiculous rate of influx, both from the EU and elsewhere. Our green and pleasant land is disappearing fast enough as it is!

 

Economy and cost - at least 10 billion Euros net per year is paid into the EU coffers by the UK and even Maggie Thatcher's rebate is likely to disappear soon. If we stay in then it can only be a matter of time before the Euro is forced upon the UK in place of sterling. The Euro has already shown itself as being unfit for purpose for several of the countries with previously weaker national economies. The scale of money creation and bond buying by ECB is similar to that of the US after 2008. The final downside of this is almost certainly yet to be seen, on both continents. Many parts of the EU are still plagued by high debt and unemployment and the EU still has the worst economic performance in the developed world, despite attempts to slap some kind of tax on just about everything! Ultimately, if we stay in, the EU will no doubt request all of the assets of the B o E be transferred to the ECB - once the UK currency and assets are gone, then the UK economy is gone and there is no way back!

 

Efficiency - The EU is not run efficiently. In fact it is wasteful, as shown by the ridiculous migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg for just 4 days each month, mainly to keep French noses in the air! The Common Agricultural Policy chews up 40% of the budget, again mainly for the benefit of French farmers (subsidies). The CAP has led to higher prices for consumers although some reform has reduced some of the initial wastage. But the CAP has provided little benefit and the UK should have been much tougher with this from day one. Ditto, of course the Common Fishing Policy, which has been a disaster for British fishing since we joined the EEC in 1973. 

 

The Future - (imho)

Without the necessary shock (of Brexit) the EU will not reform. Possibly now it will, a bit. But unchecked it will continue down its path to becoming a federal superstate. The EU up to now has stubbornly refused reform (you can ask Cameron about that). The people that control the EU are not able to be easily removed but at least the members of the British parliament are. Personally, after observing the Eurocrats in action, I do not see any way to be able to trust them or give them ward of my country, especially as it seems that the wasteful mismanagement of the EU will continue, or probably worsen.

 

The real question of the referendum was really "Do you want to be a Briton or a European"? I always preferred the first option. 

 

If they could just have stuck with a common market all would be good.  

 

 

 

Well reasoned Nauseus! I agree with much of your case. Thanks for that. ( you're still wrong though ?!)

[Grouse]

22 hours ago, KhonJaiYen said:

'my Thai daughter (UK passport) can go to university in Germany or The Netherlands and be taught in English with no tuition fees.' 

Classic!

No, engineering!

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Wrong, and this is one of the most distasteful aspects of the Remoaners arguments. Trying to create divisions within our own country. Young v Old, 

Educated v Life Experience. What next Females v Males, Blue eyed v Brown eyed.

Just get over it, the British people voted Democratically to leave this so- called Union.

 

 

"Educated v Life Experience." Euphemism of the week! 

[nontabury]

22 hours ago, KhonJaiYen said:

'my Thai daughter (UK passport) can go to university in Germany or The Netherlands and be taught in English with no tuition fees.' 

Classic!

Good for her, in the meantime EU students arrive at a English/Welsh university, sign a loan note, promising to repay their student fees,on completion of their course. But then, many of them fail to do so.

You could have, alternatively sent your daughter to live in Scotland, where she could also receive free university education. As long as she did't  mention her father is English.

[nontabury]

17 hours ago, PaddyDaddy said:

What a croc of sh*t. Are you guys in or out? Really we won't miss you as much as you think

You are aware that the Irish also voted against the EU. The Lisbon Treaty to be precise. Unfortunately they were over ruled. The establishment must be obeyed.

Edited July 29, 2017 by nontabury

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Good for her, in the meantime EU students arrive at a English/Welsh university, sign a loan note, promising to repay their student fees,on completion of their course. But then, many of them fail to do so.

You could have, alternatively sent your daughter to live in Scotland, where she could also receive free university education. As long as she did't  mention her father is English.

Actually, the Scottish option is what is happening.

 

However, I resent losing freedoms just because some black hearted souls don't understand the benefits to the individual, the economy and society generally.

 

BTW the European arrest warrant is easily applied. Just a shame our authorities can't get anything right. Some statistics on EU student defaulters would've interesting 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10920523/EU-students-fail-to-repay-record-40m-in-university-loans.html

 

Do they still do dry roasted peanuts? Fees should be free in civilised societies.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You are aware that the Irish also voted against the EU. The Lisbon Treaty to be precise. Unfortunately they were over ruled. The establishment must be obeyed.

You think Eire has not done well out of the EU? What proportion would vote to leave now do you think? Get a grip!

[MRTELLYOUSTRAIGHT]

 

[rixalex]

14 hours ago, Grouse said:

You think Eire has not done well out of the EU? What proportion would vote to leave now do you think? Get a grip!

What proportion would vote to leave now?

 

It's something of a moot point, since whatever the number, the powers that be, cheered on by people like you, would simply call them idiots who didn't know what they were voting for. People to be ignored.

 

 

 

[nauseus]

16 hours ago, Grouse said:

Well reasoned Nauseus! I agree with much of your case. Thanks for that. ( you're still wrong though ?!)

Hi Grouse, you agree with much of this but it's still wrong? As with everyone else you cannot say what is wrong and why? However, I will consider this progress! 

[Xaos]

Remember that no free movement works both ways. Enjoy ur EU visas

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Hi Grouse, you agree with much of this but it's still wrong? As with everyone else you cannot say what is wrong and why? However, I will consider this progress! 

The Chatam House paper , Britain, the EU and the Sovereignty Myth 

 

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/britain-eu-and-sovereignty-myth

[rixalex]

22 minutes ago, Xaos said:

Remember that no free movement works both ways. Enjoy ur EU visas

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

Having to get a visa, like one does for most of the other 196 countries around the world... well, it's not exactly the end of the world as we know it, is it.

Enjoy ur lost sovereignty.

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Having to get a visa, like one does for most of the other 196 countries around the world... well, it's not exactly the end of the world as we know it, is it.

Exactly.... But apparently its an insurmountable problem for some posters .

 

A bit odd as extended holidays around Europe and the rest of the world has never been a problem.

 

Presumably a few posters think the EU will impose repressive restrictions on those from the UK wishing to holiday/travel within the EU?

[nauseus]

26 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The Chatam House paper , Britain, the EU and the Sovereignty Myth 

 

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/britain-eu-and-sovereignty-myth

But he does not actually deny that sovereignty has been given away and he does not give an alternative to Brexit as a way to get back what is already lost. In fact, he moves on to mainly economic aspects very quickly, doesn't he? Basically a mild form of pro-remain project fear written before the referendum. Chatham House is supposedly an independent policy institute (think tank). Interesting to see that two ultra-pro EU names, Alistair Darling and John Major are two of the three presidents! 

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, rixalex said:

What proportion would vote to leave now?

 

It's something of a moot point, since whatever the number, the powers that be, cheered on by people like you, would simply call them idiots who didn't know what they were voting for. People to be ignored.

 

 

 

Correct!

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

But he does not actually deny that sovereignty has been given away and he does not give an alternative to Brexit as a way to get back what is already lost. In fact, he moves on to mainly economic aspects very quickly, doesn't he? Basically a mild form of pro-remain project fear written before the referendum. Chatham House is supposedly an independent policy institute (think tank). Interesting to see that two ultra-pro EU names, Alistair Darling and John Major are two of the three presidents! 

Independent does not mean per se sitting in the middle on an issue, but this is the type of nonsense being flogged by and to the uneducated and naive brexiteering fraternity.

Edited July 30, 2017 by SheungWan

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Independent does not mean per se sitting in the middle on an issue, but this is the type of nonsense being flogged by and to the uneducated and naive brexiteering fraternity.

My main point conveniently side-stepped as ever! Straw man is certainly consistent....but definitely nothing else! 

[SheungWan]

15 hours ago, nauseus said:

But he does not actually deny that sovereignty has been given away and he does not give an alternative to Brexit as a way to get back what is already lost. In fact, he moves on to mainly economic aspects very quickly, doesn't he? Basically a mild form of pro-remain project fear written before the referendum. Chatham House is supposedly an independent policy institute (think tank). Interesting to see that two ultra-pro EU names, Alistair Darling and John Major are two of the three presidents! 

Well it certainly isn't parliamentary sovereignty that the forum Hard Brexiteers are supposedly fighting for as they spent an awful amount of time being opposed to it earlier this year and ditto legal sovereignty which they not only opposed but denounced the law lords as 'enemies of the people'. When these guys prattle on about sovereignty, be sure to hold your noses for the smelly whiff coming right over.

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Well it certainly isn't parliamentary sovereignty that the forum Hard Brexiteers are supposedly fighting for as they spent an awful amount of time being opposed to it earlier this year and ditto legal sovereignty which they not only opposed but denounced the law lords as 'enemies of the people'. When these guys prattle on about sovereignty, be sure to hold your noses for the smelly whiff coming right over.

More diversion and no argument against the main point that UK sovereignty has been steadily given away and that's what stinks. 

[rockingrobin]

23 hours ago, nauseus said:

But he does not actually deny that sovereignty has been given away and he does not give an alternative to Brexit as a way to get back what is already lost. In fact, he moves on to mainly economic aspects very quickly, doesn't he? Basically a mild form of pro-remain project fear written before the referendum. Chatham House is supposedly an independent policy institute (think tank). Interesting to see that two ultra-pro EU names, Alistair Darling and John Major are two of the three presidents! 

As a matter of principle , I will provide an article from a Brexiteer ,

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86111

[Xaos]

On 7/30/2017 at 2:52 PM, rixalex said:

Having to get a visa, like one does for most of the other 196 countries around the world... well, it's not exactly the end of the world as we know it, is it.

Enjoy ur lost sovereignty.

One way or another Britain is lost anyway due to its muslims population, muslim major, everyday terrorists threat, not letting catolic priest in from PL etc.

 

And I doubt quiting EU will make anything better for majority normal hardworking ppl. Its only elites as always

[nauseus]

40 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

As a matter of principle , I will provide an article from a Brexiteer ,

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86111

Thanks. A good read but even Richard North seems confused: first he says "I don't accept that the UK either pools its sovereignty with the EU, or has lost sovereignty to it" but later on says "this actually gives this referendum a very special status. It is our opportunity to address not Brussels but the ranks of politicians – the good, the bad and the ugly. They are so indifferent to their loss of powers, increasingly delegating it to Brussels, that it requires us the people to tell them to get off their backsides and recover them". But, yes, he's obviously a Brexiteer.  

[Mickmouse1]

A senior Cabinet Minister said" a civil war could break out in Parliament " As they argue whether 2 or 3 years a grace period after brixit and allowing EU citizens to work in UK  as long as we register them???? Some

English  & not British seem to forget their past atrocities around the world. Now they want  cherry picking???East Europeans on economic paper do not qualify to join the EU but they did and must accept them.No one stopped those few hundred thousands Britain living in Europe. 

[jinners]

On 7/28/2017 at 2:12 PM, Grouse said:

I beg to differ! We have been informed continually that immigration was not what persuaded the Brexiters here to vote to leave the EU. It was sovereignty, mainly, plus the thought of how much Eurocrats earn compared to the average vegetable picking professional.

You can beg to differ all day long, that's what the standard reply is from a remainer. Fact remains immigration was very high on the list, top 3, still is as is demonstrated by the near revolt when PH suggested a 3/4 year transition, and not sure what you're on about with fruit pickers.

[jinners]

On 7/28/2017 at 1:13 PM, RuamRudy said:

Which laws can we look forward to changing so that they represent the best of British?

hard to say when there have been thousand upon thousands put into British law at Europe's request. Getting rid of the corrupt HR laws would be a good start

[jinners]

On 7/28/2017 at 0:59 PM, SheungWan said:

Apart from that small moment when the legal authorities were denounced as Enemies of the People for opposing Royal Prerogative.

EH?

[beautifulthailand99]

 Not sure I want tax exile , big mouth Mick Jagger on my side - but hey we are building a Popular Front Resistance...

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/i-went-find-england-wasnt-10891294

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by beautifulthailand99

[phuketjock]

On 7/27/2017 at 8:16 PM, Grouse said:

Fair question

 

I am highly educated, well informed, speak 3 languages, have lived all over the world, and am comfortably off.

 

My decision was originally 60:40 but now 100% to remain.

 

I want my family to benefit from the overwhelmingly positive aspects of being closely integrate with Europe economically, socially and culturally.

Well I must say I have come across quite a few intellectual idiots in my time.

I am, not highly, but well educated, like to think I am well informed, have also lived all over the world, am

also comfortably off and can, at a push, manage 3 and a half languages. ( what all of that has to do with

whether you voted to remain or not I really don't know)

As I keep reading your posts I am steadily coming to the conclusion that you are sounding more and more

like the sad chaps I mentioned in my first paragraph..............

As you have been informed many times the vote has been taken and democracy demands that the UK exits

from the EU, no matter what you or any other remoaners say,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,     Get over it and move on.......

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jinners said:

You can beg to differ all day long, that's what the standard reply is from a remainer. Fact remains immigration was very high on the list, top 3, still is as is demonstrated by the near revolt when PH suggested a 3/4 year transition, and not sure what you're on about with fruit pickers.

I was being ironic

 

Whenever one accuses a Brexiter of being xenophobic or racist or anti immigrant the INSTANT response is: "it's not about immigration, it's about sovereignty"!

 

The "fruit pickers" is aimed at Brexiters generally. The people who have difficulty finding work and don't like competion for low wage jobs.

 

Anyway, it's never going to happen. The wise are stepping in in a polite way showing as much respect as possible to the numpties ?