Retired military officers slam Trump's proposed transgender ban

[IAMHERE]

Just too much money involved, the taxpayers will be on the hook for their health problems the rest of their lives including sexual reassignment surgery and medical care forever after.  The Veterans Administration is  having problems already without that extra problem. 

[captspectre]

20 hours ago, kamahele said:

The 11-15,000 transgender personnel serving in the military which you have defamed in your post have been deemed fit to serve by the US Military. Are you?

I honorably served in the United states ARMED forces probably before you were born, in two wars and have been properly rewarded for my service!   being physically fit and mentally fit are two different things. 

[Trouble]

I have no problems at all with transgenders serving in the military and I understand that some people are not comfortable as they were born. However, it is my opinion that transgenders should make their decision about whom they want to be prior to joining not after.  You join as a man, finish the enlistment as a man. Same goes for women.  It is not the military's function to go through the process needed if one wants a sex change in the middle of an enlistment, nor is it the taxpayers responsibility to pay for it. These things normally require months of counseling, etc. and medical procedures taking the person away from their job of being a war fighter.  It's not fair to the other troops. I sure would like to see how the military has been dealing with this situation up to this point. The study which is due should help answer a lot of questions.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Trouble

[jimmyyy]

as a US Combat Veteran I agree with Secretary Mattis's decision.  We need to be ready to fight tonight, not play around with social programs like this. 

[Thakkar]

12 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

as a US Combat Veteran I agree with Secretary Mattis's decision.  We need to be ready to fight tonight, not play around with social programs like this. 

Then you must be as appalled as he was:

 

Mattis was on holiday when Trump sent the tweet and was reportedly appalled by it.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mattis-vacation-trump-tweeted-transgender-143615309.html

[jimmyyy]

Report was submitted way before that.  All the chiefs had input on it.  My level of trust in what yahoo or CNN says is up there with Thai drinkable tap water.   Transgender people are not mentally fit to serve, many people are excluded from serving in the armed forces.  Its not a right its a privileged. 

[Thakkar]

9 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

Report was submitted way before that.  All the chiefs had input on it.  My level of trust in what yahoo or CNN says is up there with Thai drinkable tap water.   Transgender people are not mentally fit to serve, many people are excluded from serving in the armed forces.  Its not a right its a privileged. 

Minorities, including Trans people are not demanding the right to be in the military. They are demanding the right to *apply* to serve in the military. After they apply, they have to go through the same screening process for suitability, just like all applicants.

 

Any argument that follows from a false or dishonest premise is invalid and dishonest.

 

People who comment on the issue might find it useful to understand the original policy before commenting. 

 

"...plan for accepting transgender recruits carries a number of stipulations: candidates suffering from gender dysphoria may not join unless a medical provider certifies that the applicant “has been stable without clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning for 18 months.” The applicant also must have completed “medical treatment associated with gender transition” and have been “stable in the preferred gender for 18 months.”

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/18/james-mattis-faces-transgender-decision-for-milita/

 

[Golgota]

14 minutes ago, jimmyyy said:

Report was submitted way before that.  All the chiefs had input on it.  My level of trust in what yahoo or CNN says is up there with Thai drinkable tap water.   Transgender people are not mentally fit to serve, many people are excluded from serving in the armed forces.  Its not a right its a privileged. 

And who are you to be able to tell if transgenders people are not mentally fit to serve?

I know the old chaps here tend to  be a bit homophobic and antiLGBT (which is ironic in such country) but they are screened the same way that regular joes before entering the army...being transgenders do no give them a All pass for the army

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, IAMHERE said:

Just too much money involved, the taxpayers will be on the hook for their health problems the rest of their lives including sexual reassignment surgery and medical care forever after.  The Veterans Administration is  having problems already without that extra problem. 

 

People who comment on the issue might find it useful to understand the original policy before commenting. 

 

"...plan for accepting transgender recruits carries a number of stipulations: candidates suffering from gender dysphoria may not join unless a medical provider certifies that the applicant “has been stable without clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning for 18 months.” The applicant also must have completed “medical treatment associated with gender transition” and have been “stable in the preferred gender for 18 months.”

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/18/james-mattis-faces-transgender-decision-for-milita/

 

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, captspectre said:

you opened up a whole can of worms, but if i replied as i should i would be banned again from the staff that does not like  a good debate! but to answer your question about pulling a trigger with a dick, what would the perverts use? their vag--a?  it is their mental state that should worry you if you were in battle with them,.I don't know where you live but when i go to the states all I see is big ugly fat women who badger their husbands and threaten them with divorce where the courts will give everything to them and leave the man nothing. at 80 years old I am not necessarily a spring chicken and I have been married for over forty years.

 

Well there's your problem; you just need to hang out with a better class of people instead of your relatives. :)

 

T

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, captspectre said:

I honorably served in the United states ARMED forces probably before you were born, in two wars and have been properly rewarded for my service!   being physically fit and mentally fit are two different things. 

Being clued up and clueless are also two different things. All applicants have to be assessed and screened before being accepted. Trans people aren't automatically accepted just because they are trans.

 

T

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, Trouble said:

I have no problems at all with transgenders serving in the military and I understand that some people are not comfortable as they were born. However, it is my opinion that transgenders should make their decision about whom they want to be prior to joining not after.  You join as a man, finish the enlistment as a man. Same goes for women.  It is not the military's function to go through the process needed if one wants a sex change in the middle of an enlistment, nor is it the taxpayers responsibility to pay for it. These things normally require months of counseling, etc. and medical procedures taking the person away from their job of being a war fighter.  It's not fair to the other troops. I sure would like to see how the military has been dealing with this situation up to this point. The study which is due should help answer a lot of questions.

People who comment on the issue might find it useful to understand the original policy before commenting. 

 

"...plan for accepting transgender recruits carries a number of stipulations: candidates suffering from gender dysphoria may not join unless a medical provider certifies that the applicant “has been stable without clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning for 18 months.” The applicant also must have completed “medical treatment associated with gender transition” and have been “stable in the preferred gender for 18 months.”

 

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/18/james-mattis-faces-transgender-decision-for-milita/

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Scott

[Golgota]

8 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

People who comment on the issue might find it useful to understand the original policy before commenting. 

 

"...plan for accepting transgender recruits carries a number of stipulations: candidates suffering from gender dysphoria may not join unless a medical provider certifies that the applicant “has been stable without clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning for 18 months.” The applicant also must have completed “medical treatment associated with gender transition” and have been “stable in the preferred gender for 18 months.”

 

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/18/james-mattis-faces-transgender-decision-for-milita/

 

 

 

I think you shouldn't bother, most of the "retired heroes" (sic) we have on Thai visa do not read the answers or do not comment the arguments

[Thakkar]

2 minutes ago, Golgota said:

I think you shouldn't bother, most of the "retired heroes" (sic) we have on Thai visa do not read the answers or do not comment the arguments

 

I know what you mean. However, I've taken in a few stray dogs in my time and I've managed to teach even the oldest one a few new tricks, so I'm always hopeful. I believe most people are fundamentally good. I've watched (and not in a creepy way) kids of all types play well together and seen that prejudice of all types is but learned behavior. What is learned can be unlearned.

 

T

[binjalin]

I don't really care if you were born a man and want to become a lady. Your business. I don't understand it though and can't pretend that I do but I do think the worlds gone into a PC overdrive. Will there be a Trans Olympics next?  

[Thakkar]

31 minutes ago, binjalin said:

I don't really care if you were born a man and want to become a lady. Your business. I don't understand it though and can't pretend that I do but I do think the worlds gone into a PC overdrive. Will there be a Trans Olympics next?  

Allowing everyone the opportunity to apply to serve in the military isn't about being PC. It's about adhering to the "equal rights" part of the constitution. It's about equal rights, not special rights.

 

While on the subject of "PC" please allow me to rant a little and please don't take it as a criticism of you. It's just a general rant that I'm taking this opportunity to spout.

 

Criticizing "political correctness" is just another way of saying. I get to be as big of a Nazi, racist f#*khead as I want and you can't say sh!t.

 

Sorry, not happening. 

 

Stop telling others to respect people's opinions. That's for "I don't like coffee" not for "I don't like black people"

 

You CAN have an opinion. I don't have to respect it. And I have the right to tell you that it is hateful, exclusionary, wrong, uninformed and unacceptable.

 

T

[Golgota]

1 hour ago, binjalin said:

I don't really care if you were born a man and want to become a lady. Your business. I don't understand it though and can't pretend that I do but I do think the worlds gone into a PC overdrive. Will there be a Trans Olympics next?  

You can not understand because you are noth them. The same goes for Olympics, office and other things...remember the army has a screening test before being able to enroll? if they fail they will not be enrolled. I guess you re also not in favor of gays people in the army...by the way working for the army is not necesseraly synonymous of being on the field...

[Belzybob]

18 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 

The view that opinions can't be "wrong" is ludicrous.

opinions based on fallacies and prejudice are wrong, plain and simple. 

 

We are not talking about wine tasting.

The matter of whether Trans people are suitable to serve in the military can be and is being determined by objective criteria. 

 

And again, Trans people are not asking for the absolute right to joint the service. They are demanding the right to *apply* to joint the service and to be accepted/rejected on the same objective criteria as everyone else.

 

T

Same pretentious nonsense. You can disagree with an opinion, but that does not make the opinion wrong. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean you are wrong either.

[Thakkar]

3 minutes ago, Belzybob said:

Same pretentious nonsense. You can disagree with an opinion, but that does not make the opinion wrong. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean you are wrong either.

Agreeing or disagreeing need no criteria.

Right or wrong requires some criteria.

 

if, base pad purely on a poster's avatar, I were to say that in my opinion they were so ugly that they probably never had a girlfriend, would I be right or wrong or even credible? Would my opinion be at all valid?

 

T

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, jimmyyy said:

Report was submitted way before that.  All the chiefs had input on it.  My level of trust in what yahoo or CNN says is up there with Thai drinkable tap water.   Transgender people are not mentally fit to serve, many people are excluded from serving in the armed forces.  Its not a right its a privileged. 

Please tell us where we can find this report or information about it.

[binjalin]

49 minutes ago, Golgota said:

You can not understand because you are noth them. The same goes for Olympics, office and other things...remember the army has a screening test before being able to enroll? if they fail they will not be enrolled. I guess you re also not in favor of gays people in the army...by the way working for the army is not necesseraly synonymous of being on the field...

Well I don't know enough about it so I'll leave it there.

[binjalin]

1 hour ago, Thakkar said:

Allowing everyone the opportunity to apply to serve in the military isn't about being PC. It's about adhering to the "equal rights" part of the constitution. It's about equal rights, not special rights.

 

While on the subject of "PC" please allow me to rant a little and please don't take it as a criticism of you. It's just a general rant that I'm taking this opportunity to spout.

 

Criticizing "political correctness" is just another way of saying. I get to be as big of a Nazi, racist f#*khead as I want and you can't say sh!t.

 

Sorry, not happening. 

 

Stop telling others to respect people's opinions. That's for "I don't like coffee" not for "I don't like black people"

 

You CAN have an opinion. I don't have to respect it. And I have the right to tell you that it is hateful, exclusionary, wrong, uninformed and unacceptable.

 

T

I don't believe that anyone has any 'right' to be hateful to another and that includes Trans, Gay's, Blacks or whatever. PC is a hateful thing too as it seeks to enhance minorities into 'specialties' from Trans to Aboriginals. We can respect and work for equality but that's not what is happening with the PC mania that is around these days and the result?  Trump!  people have had enough of it and have gone 'OTT' and elected a megalomaniac.

Edited August 3, 2017 by binjalin

[Thakkar]

8 minutes ago, binjalin said:

I don't believe that anyone has any 'right' to be hateful to another and that includes Trans, Gay's, Blacks or whatever. PC is a hateful thing too as it seeks to enhance minorities into 'specialties' from Trans to Aboriginals. We can respect and work for equality but that's not what is happening with the PC mania that is around these days and the result?  Trump!  people have had enough of it and have gone 'OTT' and elected a megalomaniac.

It seems that for some people, anything they dislike is "PC" and anything they want to do is "free speech" and "I have my rights"

 

Again, Trans are not asking for special treatment. They are demanding equal treatment. Aborigines would ideally like all their land back and their stolen generations restored. Since that's impossible, a little compensation for generations of victimization is not unreasonable.

 

T

[mrwebb8825]

On 8/2/2017 at 6:35 AM, webfact said:

"Patriotic transgender Americans who are serving - and who want to serve - must not be dismissed, deprived of medically necessary health care, or forced to compromise their integrity or hide their identity," the former officers wrote.

They won't be. They'll just have to pay for it themselves. "Medically Necessary Health Care", what a joke. If it's medically necessary for a guy to get his d**k chopped off in order to stay sane while serving then I don't think he should be handed a weapon and taught how to use it in the first place.

 

Although, for expediency, you could line all the women trapped in a man's body up at 1 end of a clinic and have all the men trapped in a woman's body line up at the other end and just run an assembly line of chop and sew, chop and sew... 

Edited August 3, 2017 by mrwebb8825

[binjalin]

14 hours ago, Thakkar said:

It seems that for some people, anything they dislike is "PC" and anything they want to do is "free speech" and "I have my rights"

 

Again, Trans are not asking for special treatment. They are demanding equal treatment. Aborigines would ideally like all their land back and their stolen generations restored. Since that's impossible, a little compensation for generations of victimization is not unreasonable.

 

T

But often they do want special treatment. Bathrooms or use the girls bathrooms. They may want  to be the opposite gender but their DNA doesn't change and that should determine such things. What happens about sports?  men's or women's tennis? (for example). These 'rights' are not rights and the world is not one super PC place where we are all equal. Money divides us for a start. Education and many other things including genetic disposition and intelligence.

 

Trying to morph the world into a Kumbaya boring place where we are all the 'same' is nonsense but I do defend their right to choose who and what they want to be but that should not mean the world elevating their needs. 

[Thakkar]

2 hours ago, binjalin said:

But often they do want special treatment. Bathrooms or use the girls bathrooms. They may want

 to be the opposite gender but their DNA doesn't change and that should determine such things. What happens about sports?  men's or women's tennis? (for example). These 'rights' are not rights and the world is not one super PC place where we are all equal. Money divides us for a start. Education and many other things including genetic disposition and intelligence.

 

Trying to morph the world into a Kumbaya boring place where we are all the 'same' is nonsense but I do defend their right to choose who and what they want to be but that should not mean the world elevating their needs. 

When have Trans people demanded a special bathroom for themselves? Someone who identifies as female and who has transitioned to female wanting to use the female bathroom is perfectly reasonable.

 

A tennis player who has fully transitioned to female should what, compete only with male players? She is female, regardless of DNA.

 

The world will never be a "super PC place" as long as bigots and boors live among us, so you have no worries there for the foreseeable future.

 

If you think that asking for equal treatment is the same as wanting to smooth out all differences in wealth, intelligence and talent, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Again, trans people are not asking the world to "elevate" the needs of trans people, just to elevate everyone's level of compassion.

 

T

[captspectre]

6 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 

Well there's your problem; you just need to hang out with a better class of people instead of your relatives. :)

 

T

what's that supposed to mean? explain yourself.

[Thakkar]

1 minute ago, captspectre said:

what's that supposed to mean? explain yourself.

It means what it says. Do you think this is a two bit bar where you can ask me to "step outside"?

[ilostmypassword]

4 hours ago, Belzybob said:

Same pretentious nonsense. You can disagree with an opinion, but that does not make the opinion wrong. I don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean you are wrong either.

Actually, using "pretentious" where it doesn't apply quallifies as being pretentious.

[Thakkar]

2 minutes ago, captspectre said:

cowards never step outside. but the relative thing does not ring as i do not have any relatives here and  don't now what you are talking about. but stay under your bed where it is safe. I have you pegged as a lose who does not have anything better to do.

 

"Don't know what you are talking about"

 

There's the rub.