Land ownership by alien-please help!

[sakurachan]

I want to know if my half Thai half Japanese daughter will  have the right to  inherit my house and land in Thailand if she decides to keep her Japanese nationality and abandon Thai nationality after her 21 st birthday according to the Japanese Nationaliy Law.

[caughtintheact]

sakurachan,

I suspect you will need a lawyer to answer this one, since no one has responded.  My suspicion is that your daughter can retain ownership as long as no one knows, but if she wants to sell the land and has no Thai identification papers, there might be problems as to her right to sell. In any event, you don't need "guess" answers, but you do need a valid legal opinion.

[lopburi3]

Agree with 'cita' that you should ask for official legal advise.  Your Embassy should be able to answer this.  If she indeed does not have Thai citizenship believe it is clear she could not inherit (just as those of use with Thai wives can not inherit).  But not sure if the Japanese requirement will involve an official loss of Thai citizenship.  It could well be ignored by Thai authorities and she might keep her Thai citizenship regardless of what she signs for the Japanese.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Is the daughter registered in Thailand....birth ...passport ID ?

[mrvietnam2001]

Foreigners cannot own land in Thailand.

???

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Read the previous posting Mr Vietnam .....dependant on the reply, the girl just could have Thai citizenship and quite able to inherit. If the original posting is correct,    ie. the girl has dual nationality, then she could inherit now.  I am uncertain, but is Japanese nationality only available to issue where both parents are Japanese ?

[sakurachan]

Thanks to all who have replied.

I just want to add that my daugther was born in Japan but she now has both Thai and Japanese passports. She will need to provide official evidence that she has abandoned her Thai nationality in order to apply for the Japanese nationality. I was told by someone at the Department of Lands ( through e-mail) that she, as my legal daughter, could inherit my house and land in Thailand but on the condition that the land must not exceed 1 rai..... I am quite confused by various answers. Can any expert give me an advice? ???

[caughtintheact]

sakurachan

I don't know if there are any lawyers on this forum, although I've noticed a couple of sea lawyers like myself.  Go see a lawyer, see what he says, then get a second opinion, and a third if the results are different.  There's bound to be a Japanese lawyer or two around.  I've emailed a Japanese friend of mine who might know one, and will let you know if i get a reply.

[sakurachan]

I am still waiting for suggestions from other experts. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

How about clearing up whether the girl is a Japanese passport holder .... coz you also say she has to prove abandonment of her Thai nationality in order to apply for Japanese nationality. If she has a Japanese passport, she has no need to apply for nationality. Few, if any commentators on here are well versed in Japanese law, thus it is still in your interest to seek legal advice from someone who has that competence.

[caughtintheact]

See sakurachan's post May 19 2003,08:58

[dr_Pat_Pong]

How old is she Caught ?

Are you the Thai or the Japanese ?

[caughtintheact]

That's a quote.  I don't know her age - ask sakurachan.  It's sakurachan's topic.  Does my nationality make a difference?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I thought you meant you had a 50 / 50 kid sorry

[caughtintheact]

No problem, mate, I just didn't know how to get the quote to come out in white, and didn't have time to experiment

[keestha]

According to Thai law, a person who was born having Thai citizenship but who has given up Thai nationality in order to become or remain citizen of another country, can inherit land/real estate legally but has to sell the property within a year.  Thai law does not accept dual nationality for persons aged 18 yeas or above. Children born out of a mixed Thai/foreign liason can have dual nationality till they become 18 , then they will have to choose between Thai nationality or the nationality of the foreign partner. This is only my two bath worth of wisdom though, what I say might be outdated, laws are subject to change. Consult a lawyer who is familiar with this type of problem, most likely to be found in places with a heavy foreign presence such as Phuket or Pattaya. Regards, Keestha.

[mrvietnam2001]

As a matter of law, there would also be an issue that even if the way out of the ordinary would apply in this particular case and this young lady would be granted the 'rights" to the property questioned, would be a subject of taxation, as well as "rightful useage" .

Lot's of legal symantics could play out on this one and frankly, a bonafide lawyer is the only way to get this one on track if that's even possible.

I do suppose that some of the experts would know about the land seizures in surat thani last year? Perhaps you might say, "yeh but that was different" but was it really?

If it were my money on the table, I would hire a lawyer and let the chips fall where they may.

Good luck

[abjinthai]

Hello Sakurachan,

 I'm an American born Japanese and have had a dual citizenship since I was born. I used my American passport when I went to Japan when I was 19, my visa was about to expire and I went to extend it. I showed immigration in Japan that I was also a Japanese citizen, so they told me I didn't need to extend my visa and that I could stay in Japan without one.

 After 5 years in Japan, I left for Thailand and tried to use my American passport to leave, but immigration said I couldn't use it and told me to use my Japanese passport to leave Japan. This was when I was 24.

 During that time, I worked using my Japanese passport with a work permit in Thailand and went back to the states for a while after I had one child in Thailand with my Thai wife. I used my Japanese passport to go to the states and came back to Thailand using my American passport. I am now using my American passport with my work permit and my 2 kids have dual citizenship, Thai and America.

 I will also apply for a Japanese citizenship for my kids soon.

 It's very confusing having a number of citizenships, but I personally was never asked by Japan or the US to give up my citizenships to either country, even though I informed immigration in both countries of my dual citizenship. I have a friend who has 3 citizenships (American, Thai and Swiss), but he has bought a house in Thailand and he's 35. Don't know the legal aspects of all of this, but I'd better find out soon.

 The reason I'm writing is just to let you know that in Japan they never told me that I had to give up my citizenship, so I still have both at 34.

 I wondering if the laws have changed since I left Japan.

 I'm sure I've confused you enough, but just to let you know my situation.

[caughtintheact]

sakurachan,

My Japanese friend sent me a briefing from a seminar on legal guidance for foreigners that he took. Although it does not address your specific question, it does indicate a deep knowledge of laws regarding foreigners, and provides the contact information for the lecturer (at Dkurakijpundit university, and her law firm).

Her name is Khun Saranya Chaiysuta aqnd she is the managing director of Solya Chaisutra Law Co Ltd.  533-11-13 Nakornchaisri Road, Dusit, Bangkok 10300

email: [email protected]

Tel: 02-243-3573, 3575, 2593, 6066

Fax:  02-243-5165

[caughtintheact]

sakurachan,

I got a reply from my friend who graduated in law from the Univ. of Tokyo (Bachelors and Masters).

Here is what he told me and his advice:

"(1) In general Thai law does recognize dual nationality.

(2) Japanese law does not recognize dual nationality - until 1985 only children of Japanese parents or a Japanese father (not mother!) could become Japanese citizens. From 1985 a child of a Japanese mother or father can become a  Japanese citizen - the child must elect Japanese or foreign nationality by the age of 22. Electing Japanese citizenship involves renouncing the foreign citizenship - but in practice certain coutries (Australia and Korea, not sure about Thailand yet) ignore the renounciation of their citizenship by a child who selects Japanese nationality - in other words such kids are still regarded as Aussie or Korean citizens and as dual nationals by the Aussie and Korean authorities.

So the answer to your first question below is that I believe that in practice it is possible for the daughter to remain a Thai national even if she elects for Japanese citizenship with the Japanese authorities. However as I am sure you are aware the Thai Land Department has its own quite strict guidelines of who can own land. I guess if they knew she was Japanese as well as Thai they might try to raise difficulties. I have heard in the past of many Thai women who married foreigners but did not register the marriage at the amphoe in order to be able to buy land - perhaps this familty can do something similar - but this is getting into a delicate area from the legal ethical point of view, helping someone to evade the law!. To predict what will happen when daughter comes to inherit the land, you would need to talk to someone who has actually done this, such as a lawyer who is experienced in probate/will matters for foreigners in Thailand. I can't think of anyone offhand. Maybe the Japanese Embassy could help on this matter - it must have come up before. Sorry this advice is still sketchy, I don't have access to the relevant Thail law books here, such as the Civil & Commercial Code dealing with probate (succession)."

As I see it you have another possibility - the Japanese Embassy - to contact.  

In any event, matters such as this are best handled through proper  legal authorities, rather than on a foruim, where you do not know who is giving the advice or their qualifications.  There is an old expression "Hire a consultant and go wrong ---- with confidence."  

In this case, you need only someone you know is qualified to provide the answer.

[caughtintheact]

sakurachan,

I got a reply from my friend who graduated in law from the Univ. of Tokyo (Bachelors and Masters).

Here is what he told me and his advice:

"(1) In general Thai law does recognize dual nationality.

(2) Japanese law does not recognize dual nationality - until 1985 only children of Japanese parents or a Japanese father (not mother!) could become Japanese citizens. From 1985 a child of a Japanese mother or father can become a  Japanese citizen - the child must elect Japanese or foreign nationality by the age of 22. Electing Japanese citizenship involves renouncing the foreign citizenship - but in practice certain countries (Australia and Korea, not sure about Thailand yet) ignore the renunciation of their citizenship by a child who selects Japanese nationality - in other words such kids are still regarded as Aussie or Korean citizens and as dual nationals by the Aussie and Korean authorities.

So the answer to your first question below is that I believe that in practice it is possible for the daughter to remain a Thai national even if she elects for Japanese citizenship with the Japanese authorities. However as I am sure you are aware the Thai Land Department has its own quite strict guidelines of who can own land. I guess if they knew she was Japanese as well as Thai they might try to raise difficulties. I have heard in the past of many Thai women who married foreigners but did not register the marriage at the amphoe in order to be able to buy land - perhaps this family can do something similar - but this is getting into a delicate area from the legal ethical point of view, helping someone to evade the law!. To predict what will happen when daughter comes to inherit the land, you would need to talk to someone who has actually done this, such as a lawyer who is experienced in probate/will matters for foreigners in Thailand. I can't think of anyone offhand. Maybe the Japanese Embassy could help on this matter - it must have come up before. Sorry this advice is still sketchy, I don't have access to the relevant Thai law books here, such as the Civil & Commercial Code dealing with probate (succession)."

As I see it you have another possibility - the Japanese Embassy - to contact.  

In any event, matters such as this are best handled through proper  legal authorities, rather than on a forum, where you do not know who is giving the advice or their qualifications.  There is an old expression "Hire a consultant and go wrong ---- with confidence."  

In this case, you need only someone you know is qualified to provide the answer.

[sakurachan]

Thank you very much for your replies.

I have just received an e mail from the Department of Lands confirming that my daughter will be entitled to inherit my house and land in Thailand even after she has abandoned her Thai nationality. but on the condition that the land must not exceed 1 rai. She has this right because her father is THAI. This is the second e mail they have sent me. I hope they are right.

[Dah fahrang]

Thai law does not accept dual nationality for persons aged 18 yeas or above. Children born out of a mixed Thai/foreign liason can have dual nationality till they become 18 , then they will have to choose between Thai nationality or the nationality of the foreign partner. This is only my two bath worth of wisdom though, what I say might be outdated, laws are subject to change.

Absolutely not the case.

My daughter (UK & YThai nationality) gained that status at 17 when we realised she was eligible. She is 19 now, and has never been questioned by either Thai or UK authorities, even when making a will at the amphur. (This was done so she inherits my wifes property in Photharam).

If this statement were the case, my wife would have been 'forced' to make her choice ages ago. She regularly travels back and forth to the UK on two passports, and has renewed three times Thai passport in married name with the issuing authorities being fully aware of her dual nationality.

Likewise at the amphur, when making the above will for our duaghter.

Finally, the Thai Embassy in London, in response to a similar statement on the Thailand UK forum confirm this is not so.

[Rinrada]

Think what everone is saying is just keep both passports/nationality and dont worry about it.

I have a Phillipina femail friend who has a standard Phillipine passport for going home,a U.S.passport for visiting mum in New Mexico (gods knows)  and since she is married to a jock a UK-European PP.for day trips to the supermarket in Calais to buy kao or whatever. ::

[lopburi3]

I have heard in the past of many Thai women who married foreigners but did not register the marriage at the amphoe in order to be able to buy land - perhaps this familty can do something similar - but this is getting into a delicate area from the legal ethical point of view, helping someone to evade the law!.

Would like to point out that there is and was never any such law that had to be evaded.  There was (not now) a policy not to register land to those with a foreign spouse.  As they only knew this by the last name used by a wife it was effectively only used against Thai women the policy was changed on the basis of the new constitution and a wife should no longer have any problem registering land that she obtains with her money.