Replacing A Patio Roof

[Somtham]

Right now we have a patio roof covering ~100 sq meters. The existing construction is wood posts and beams and a single slope corrugated roof. A contractor came back with a quote today to remove the old roof and replace it with concrete posts and channel iron beams with a standard Thai "blue roof" panels. The quote was B1,500/sq meter. 1,000 for material and 500 for labor. I thought it was quite expensive but really don't have a clue. If anybody has gone through a roof replacement I would appreciate hearing what you paid.

thanks

[OneeyedJohn]

We've had built lots of salahs ( rest areas ) and car port with coloured and plain tiles, wooden post and concrete posts,and it is not expensive as what you quote but off the top of my head 3 tiles would cover more than a square metre and the coloured ones are 60 Baht each, a plain one is 18 - 25 baht.

Say no more

[tutsiwarrior]

don't know about the cost...but if you are replacing materials on an existing support arrangement with heavier materials make sure that the new load can be accommodated. In my case we have 2 existing shophouses and a new one all attached. The new unit has it's own support and the existing ones previously supported a kitchen roof arrangement only. We decided to build a terrace across the the three units that required a steel raft, concrete slabs and finishing concrete across the existing units effectively increasing the load there by 3 x by my estimate. Cracks have now appeared downstairs...not big ones, but noticeable.

I figure that there has to be some settlement from the new load on the existing units resulting in cracks that will continue over the next few months. So long as the cracks don't get much bigger than they presently are we're OK.

in the meantime, tutsi kicks back in his plastic chair with vodka as his beautiful thai nieces sing bulgarian lulabys to him on his beautiful new terrace, immersed in central Thailand bucolia (sp?)...sum cracks are a small price to pay...

[OneeyedJohn]

Crack on Tutsi....

The ceramic tiles are of course a lot smaller and more expensive, I was yapping about dem cheaper asbestos type ones tha come in pretty colours.

[tutsiwarrior]

Crack on Tutsi....

The ceramic tiles are of course a lot smaller and more expensive, I was yapping about dem cheaper asbestos type ones tha come in pretty colours.

nah...it's purely cosmetic, either material can do the trick, ie, keep the rain out. The asbestos ones would probably need more frequent replacing...wonder what the interior decibel level would be with big rain, tiles vs asbestos?, presuming no ceiling or other insulation...

[chownah]

Seems unlikely to me that you would be spending 100,000 baht for materials if you are just going to have posts and steel beams with roofing. You would only need precast posts for that and my guess is that they are around 300 baht each and I'll guess that the beams will be about 500 baht per 6 metre length. I'll guess that you want to cover an area that is 12 by 8 metres with posts every 4 metres...that means 12 posts at 300 baht each will cost you 3,600 baht. It will take 4 beams 8 metres long or 32 metres so that is 6 pieces at 500 baht per piece and that will cost you 3,000 baht. So now your total is 6,600 baht. Now you need some smaller steel cross pieces (or wood ones)...you'll need one every metre so that is 9 of them each 12 metres long and that is 108 metres and I'll gues somewhere between 50 baht per metre for this so this gives you about 5,000 baht more so not your total is 11,600 baht. Then you need the covering and I'll use the really high estimate of 60 baht per blue roof piece and three of them to make a sq metre so one sq metre costs you 180 baht times 100 sq metres needed that gives you 18,000 baht.......so now your total is about 30,000 baht.

I'm sure there are some things I haven't put in the estimate for materials like nails and roof clips etc.......but its hard to imagine that there would need to be 70,000 baht of miscellaneous hardware needed which would bring your total to 100,000 baht.

Maybe I'm making some big error here and can't see it....did I?

You might ask the contractor for a complete breakdown of costs for the materials....I think you won't get one because then too much would be too obvious.....of course I could be wrong on this.

Chownah

[Somtham]

We've had built lots of salahs ( rest areas ) and car port with coloured and plain tiles, wooden post and concrete posts,and it is not expensive as what you quote but off the top of my head 3 tiles would cover more than a square metre and the coloured ones are 60 Baht each, a plain one is 18 - 25 baht.

Say no more

OK, so I'm looking at B6k plus slope for the tiles. How about the metal work and concrete columns. He wants to use 9" diameter columns with rebar filled with concrete. I've purchased 8" cement columns in the past at B280 each, so again not much cost involed for them.

I am not sure what the steel costs and am concerned that he wants to use 4" stell to span 8 meters. Again, seems like to big of a span.

tutsiwarrior Posted Today, 2007-01-03 19:51:37

don't know about the cost...but if you are replacing materials on an existing support arrangement with heavier materials make sure that the new load can be accommodated. In my case we have 2 existing shophouses and a new one all attached. The new unit has it's own support and the existing ones previously supported a kitchen roof arrangement only. We decided to build a terrace across the the three units that required a steel raft, concrete slabs and finishing concrete across the existing units effectively increasing the load there by 3 x by my estimate. Cracks have now appeared downstairs...not big ones, but noticeable.

I figure that there has to be some settlement from the new load on the existing units resulting in cracks that will continue over the next few months. So long as the cracks don't get much bigger than they presently are we're OK.

in the meantime, tutsi kicks back in his plastic chair with vodka as his beautiful thai nieces sing bulgarian lulabys to him on his beautiful new terrace, immersed in central Thailand bucolia (sp?)...sum cracks are a small price to pay...

Good point on the settling ofthe existing structure. He wants to attach a metal beam to the existing house structure and not add any columns there. Only add columns at the extension end of the roof. I'll call him on this and ask to see his calcs that say the old columns can support the weight of the new tiles and metal structure vs the old corrugated roof and wood beams (spanned at 3.7m).

Thanks foryour input and hope I can get more before deciding.

rgds

[OneeyedJohn]

Unless its hazy........

Full moon tonight

Sorry cross posted....Chownah makes sense, as I would in the morning.

Don't be hasty as every village handyman can do this work with the minimum of skill.

200 Baht per day labour per man -- 2/3 men preferable.

[Somtham]

Seems unlikely to me that you would be spending 100,000 baht for materials if you are just going to have posts and steel beams with roofing. You would only need precast posts for that and my guess is that they are around 300 baht each and I'll guess that the beams will be about 500 baht per 6 metre length. I'll guess that you want to cover an area that is 12 by 8 metres with posts every 4 metres...that means 12 posts at 300 baht each will cost you 3,600 baht. It will take 4 beams 8 metres long or 32 metres so that is 6 pieces at 500 baht per piece and that will cost you 3,000 baht. So now your total is 6,600 baht. Now you need some smaller steel cross pieces (or wood ones)...you'll need one every metre so that is 9 of them each 12 metres long and that is 108 metres and I'll gues somewhere between 50 baht per metre for this so this gives you about 5,000 baht more so not your total is 11,600 baht. Then you need the covering and I'll use the really high estimate of 60 baht per blue roof piece and three of them to make a sq metre so one sq metre costs you 180 baht times 100 sq metres needed that gives you 18,000 baht.......so now your total is about 30,000 baht.

I'm sure there are some things I haven't put in the estimate for materials like nails and roof clips etc.......but its hard to imagine that there would need to be 70,000 baht of miscellaneous hardware needed which would bring your total to 100,000 baht.

Maybe I'm making some big error here and can't see it....did I?

You might ask the contractor for a complete breakdown of costs for the materials....I think you won't get one because then too much would be too obvious.....of course I could be wrong on this.

Chownah

Thanks CN. I'm going to check on some materials costs in the morning with suppliers that know me and where I have dropped a few baht in the last year. You're numbers look like I have white skin!!

I will call him on the breakdown of the material costs. Labor at B500/sq m also sounds high as these 3 workers getting paid B300/day do not add up to B500/sq m.

Thanks

[Somtham]

nah...it's purely cosmetic, either material can do the trick, ie, keep the rain out. The asbestos ones would probably need more frequent replacing...wonder what the interior decibel level would be with big rain, tiles vs asbestos?, presuming no ceiling or other insulation...

No ceiling or insulation planned and I love the sound of a pounding rain on the corrugated roof. You don't get that on the bay.

[chownah]

I've had a second thought on my suggestion to ask for a breakdown of material costs....this could make the contractor lose face so you might want to reconsider how making this request might affect your relationship with him or her......up to you.

Chownah

[dvk1951]

Asking for a detailed pricing for work is SOP and not a face loss issue in my book. A 'face saving' option would be to provide materials and only pay for the labor costs.

I've had a second thought on my suggestion to ask for a breakdown of material costs....this could make the contractor lose face so you might want to reconsider how making this request might affect your relationship with him or her......up to you.

Chownah

[Moonfruit]

All very good posts so far.

Chownah, you seem about right in your pricing, however, dont forget that it costs somebody to go and buy these materials. Add 20% to the material costs for contractor markup. Roofing tiles worth using are 128thb per piece from Cementhai, cheaper out in the sticks. You are gonna need about 3/sqm. Thats 300 pieces. Call it 30,000THB in total. (1.5m length, not 1.2).

Now, down to the labour costs. An unskilled labourer at a run of the mill contractor, cheapest price is 250/day. Skilled in Bangkok runs at 500/day for experienced Thai (not Burmese). Thats your foreman rate. The other 4 will be 300 or 350/day. So, call that 1,500/day.

100sqm of roofing is gonna take 5 guys 5 days to do. Do the math. So far we are up to (includin unspecified steel, fastenings, column posts guestimating at 20,000thb) 55,000thb for the work to be done.

Now, if you are gonna use a company, rather than Somchai on the street add to this overheads. Office, insurance, whatever. Call it 4,000/day for a decent sized company. Thats another 20,000thb. Using a good company will also give you a warranty. This warranty figure has to be built into the costs also.

Now, that company has to make a profit right? What would be a fair figure? 25% gross? 30% gross? Take your pick. We are already at that 100,000thb figure very very easily.

You have to take your pick. Use a decent company at roughly 75% extra costs, or get the local Somchai to do it and supervise the work yourself. Sure it can be done for those on a tight budget, but is it really worth it?

[Bredbury Blue]

Materials - suggest to the builder that he sources them and you pay the invoice cost plus a mark-up percentage (say 15%, 20% maximum).

Labour - Don't recall where you are but say if BKK the daily labour rate is currently 184 baht (for Bangkok, Nakon Pathom, Nonthaburi, Pathum Thani, Samut Prakan, and Samut Sakhon).

Time - don't forget to agree a time frame or like most builders he'll start and drift along and a 5 day job will take 15 days....

All-in - Remember to agree with him that you want his price to be all in for the labour (as you'll be buying the materials) with no extras, in other words, agree a daily rate plus a mark-up (say 10%) and there will be no extras.

That way he makes 15% on the total material purchase price, a little on the daily rate and 10% on the total labour rate - he should be ok with that.

[chownah]

20% extra for the contractor for materials....why? I can call up the steel company and have a truck deliver for 200 baht....so 3 baht for the phone call and 200 baht for the delivery....the phone call takes about 10 minutes so even the best paid boss can do this for about 100 baht labor (an outrageous amount for one phone call in my opinion but what the heck)...a total cost for arranging the steel would be 303 baht.....on a load costing maybe 6,000 baht this comes to 5%.....and MOST of the materials I buy are delivered for FREE!

4000 baht per day for overhead at the office for your patio project!!!! Totally outrageous!!....I would classify this as "ridiculous" and forget it.

Chownah

[Moonfruit]

20% extra for the contractor for materials....why? I can call up the steel company and have a truck deliver for 200 baht....so 3 baht for the phone call and 200 baht for the delivery....the phone call takes about 10 minutes so even the best paid boss can do this for about 100 baht labor (an outrageous amount for one phone call in my opinion but what the heck)...a total cost for arranging the steel would be 303 baht.....on a load costing maybe 6,000 baht this comes to 5%.....and MOST of the materials I buy are delivered for FREE!

4000 baht per day for overhead at the office for your patio project!!!! Totally outrageous!!....I would classify this as "ridiculous" and forget it.

Chownah

Chownah, its simple business. Job cost+overheads+profit margins=quoted job price.

[Moonfruit]

Materials - suggest to the builder that he sources them and you pay the invoice cost plus a mark-up percentage (say 15%, 20% maximum).

Labour - Don't recall where you are but say if BKK the daily labour rate is currently 184 baht (for Bangkok, Nakon Pathom, Nonthaburi, Pathum Thani, Samut Prakan, and Samut Sakhon).

Time - don't forget to agree a time frame or like most builders he'll start and drift along and a 5 day job will take 15 days....

All-in - Remember to agree with him that you want his price to be all in for the labour (as you'll be buying the materials) with no extras, in other words, agree a daily rate plus a mark-up (say 10%) and there will be no extras.

That way he makes 15% on the total material purchase price, a little on the daily rate and 10% on the total labour rate - he should be ok with that.

You are right on there Bredbury, however the MINIMUM labour rate is what you quoted, not the going rate for decent labour. Read my above post quoting between 250-500thb/day.

[Bredbury Blue]

Moofruit - totally agree with your earlier comments.

On the subject of construction rates, does anybody have a rate for the following (for my house outside BKK):

1. Cost per m2 for block garden wall, plaster and painted both sides (approx 30m2 of wall)?

2. Cost per m2 for external painting of house (approx 340m2; walls and underside of roof eaves)?

3. Cost per m2 for internal painting of house (approx 410m2 of walls and 190 m2 of ceilings)?

Appreciate it.

[Moonfruit]

Moofruit - totally agree with your earlier comments.

On the subject of construction rates, does anybody have a rate for the following (for my house outside BKK):

1. Cost per m2 for block garden wall, plaster and painted both sides (approx 30m2 of wall)?

2. Cost per m2 for external painting of house (approx 340m2; walls and underside of roof eaves)?

3. Cost per m2 for internal painting of house (approx 410m2 of walls and 190 m2 of ceilings)?

Appreciate it.

Not sure about upcountry Bredbury, but in Bangkok your rendered, painted walling would be about 950thb/sqm all in. Im guessing it would be 10m long by 3m high which would mean 3 columns in there.

External house painting runs at about 150/sqm, more for the second level and higher if scaffolding needs to be brought in.

Internal, flat emulsion is around 250/sqm.

Im sure it would be cheaper upcountry though.

[chownah]

Sounds like this thread is being hijacked by some farang builders who are trying to justify their overinflated prices and trying to convince gullible farangs that these prices are reasonable and what should be expected.....but believe me the prices they quote are nonsense....4000 baht per day for office expenses for a patio roof replacement!!!!! total BS.....4,000 baht per day is more than the cost of the labor to do the work!!!......20% markup on materials!!!!....for what?...there's no reason for this. My cost for experienced workers is 170 to 200 baht per day (the going rate in our village) and the rate for unskilled laborers is 120 to 150 baht per day.

150,000 baht for and 8x12 metre patio cover!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahahahah

Chownah

[Moonfruit]

Sounds like this thread is being hijacked by some farang builders who are trying to justify their overinflated prices and trying to convince gullible farangs that these prices are reasonable and what should be expected.....but believe me the prices they quote are nonsense....4000 baht per day for office expenses for a patio roof replacement!!!!! total BS.....4,000 baht per day is more than the cost of the labor to do the work!!!......20% markup on materials!!!!....for what?...there's no reason for this. My cost for experienced workers is 170 to 200 baht per day (the going rate in our village) and the rate for unskilled laborers is 120 to 150 baht per day.

150,000 baht for and 8x12 metre patio cover!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahahahahahahahahah

Chownah

Chownah,

There is one very big difference in what the OP is asking, and what you are doing. Your costs sound about right to be honest. Labour rates are obviously higher in Bangkok, as are materials and transport costs.

The big difference here is that YOU are doing the work yourself, whereas the OP is trying to engage somebody to do it. He wants an 'outsourced solution' if you like.

I am not a builder, and in my work i do not charge over inflated prices. In fact, in our field, my company is cheaper than most of the local competition. However, i do know something about the construction industry, and business in general.

Like it or not, overheads run. Utilities, professional fees, insurances, building rents, vehicle costs, transport costs, whatever. These have to be built into the price of whatever your product is, construction oor toy manufacture. I used the figure of 4,000/day as thats what our particular overheads run at.

[Bredbury Blue]

Moofruit - totally agree with your earlier comments.

On the subject of construction rates, does anybody have a rate for the following (for my house outside BKK):

1. Cost per m2 for block garden wall, plaster and painted both sides (approx 30m2 of wall)?

2. Cost per m2 for external painting of house (approx 340m2; walls and underside of roof eaves)?

3. Cost per m2 for internal painting of house (approx 410m2 of walls and 190 m2 of ceilings)?

Appreciate it.

Not sure about upcountry Bredbury, but in Bangkok your rendered, painted walling would be about 950thb/sqm all in. Im guessing it would be 10m long by 3m high which would mean 3 columns in there.

External house painting runs at about 150/sqm, more for the second level and higher if scaffolding needs to be brought in.

Internal, flat emulsion is around 250/sqm.

Im sure it would be cheaper upcountry though.

That external wall rate is similar to one we were quoted a while back, while the painting quote we received was Baht 50k plus materials for the internal & external combined (but the quote was written on a scrap of paper and no doubt there would be additional claims for "oh, i didn't include for that" later on so i'm currently going to get another quote from another builder). Thanks for the comments though.

I'm not sure who Chownahs comments are aimed at but i'm not a builder (i am a QS though but don't currently work in the construction field).

[Moonfruit]

Maybe i should also point out that overheads are not put directly onto the bill of one client. They are built into the costs of the ongoing jobs a company has. Example, a company is running 4 jobs at once, those overheads are built into the costs of all 4, I.E. 1,000thb/day/job.

[Nomad97]

"Sounds like this thread is being hijacked by some farang builders who are trying to justify their overinflated prices and trying to convince gullible farangs that these prices are reasonable and what should be expected.." Hear, hear Chownah, I fully agree with you.

I had a free-standing carport erected last year with four, 20 sq cm x 3 meter high reinforced concrete post (cast on-site with foundations), suitable steel cross beams, supports and coloured tiles - a total area of 48 square meters. The cost was a modest 23,000 Baht. Carport or patio roof much the same. Double up my cost and your 96 square meter patio roof should cost in the order of 50,000 Baht. And my carport was constructed by a Thai builder who presumably made a nice profit too.

[Somtham]

Thank you all for the great input. The original quote was B150k and from your replies somewhere between B50-100K is more reasonable.

So here's what I did this morning. I put a combination of Moonfruit's and Chownah's numbers into a spreadsheet that came out to 98K with a breakdown for tiles, steel and concrete, labour, and a profit margin of 30%. The wife called the guy and counter offered him B100K and explained what I did on Excel and ran the numbers by him. He said it all sounded right except he said it was impossible to get the steel for 20K. Fair enough. I told him I would buy all the material, pay his work staff daily and then give him a net 30% of my costs for him to pocket. He is not Somchai and runs a well respected operation locally and also does construction in Lampoon. He actually built the school behind our house last year.

The patio is 12m x 8m. He wants to put 4 columns on the outside of the 12m run and none on the 8m run. He said he will tie directly into the house structure. The house is a 21 year old red brick construction with cement plaster. He also wants to span the 8m with 4" steel channels. Questions - 1. Should I insist on putting 4 more columns on the 12m run adjacent to the house and if so will digging that close to the house disrupt the existing foundation? 2. Is a 4" steel channel with a 8m span strong enough to support the structure?

Thanks again to all.

[OneeyedJohn]

I wanna start a construction company with Chownah

[lingling]

So here's what I did this morning. I put a combination of Moonfruit's and Chownah's numbers into a spreadsheet that came out to 98K with a breakdown for tiles, steel and concrete, labour, and a profit margin of 30%. The wife called the guy and counter offered him B100K and explained what I did on Excel and ran the numbers by him. He said it all sounded right except he said it was impossible to get the steel for 20K. Fair enough. I told him I would buy all the material, pay his work staff daily and then give him a net 30% of my costs for him to pocket. He is not Somchai and runs a well respected operation locally and also does construction in Lampoon. He actually built the school behind our house last year.

If he tried to rip you off once, why use him? He will try it again.

[Somtham]

I wanna start a construction company with Chownah

And I can see the first board of directors meeting of the One Eyed Rice Farmer Construction Co LTD "Hey, shouldn't we be charging for our overhead and maybe bump the margin another 5%"!

rgds

[Somtham]

If he tried to rip you off once, why use him? He will try it again.

Because in the end I believe he will do a quality job and if he doesn't.....I know where he lives!

[Moonfruit]

Thank you all for the great input. The original quote was B150k and from your replies somewhere between B50-100K is more reasonable.

So here's what I did this morning. I put a combination of Moonfruit's and Chownah's numbers into a spreadsheet that came out to 98K with a breakdown for tiles, steel and concrete, labour, and a profit margin of 30%. The wife called the guy and counter offered him B100K and explained what I did on Excel and ran the numbers by him. He said it all sounded right except he said it was impossible to get the steel for 20K. Fair enough. I told him I would buy all the material, pay his work staff daily and then give him a net 30% of my costs for him to pocket. He is not Somchai and runs a well respected operation locally and also does construction in Lampoon. He actually built the school behind our house last year.

The patio is 12m x 8m. He wants to put 4 columns on the outside of the 12m run and none on the 8m run. He said he will tie directly into the house structure. The house is a 21 year old red brick construction with cement plaster. He also wants to span the 8m with 4" steel channels. Questions - 1. Should I insist on putting 4 more columns on the 12m run adjacent to the house and if so will digging that close to the house disrupt the existing foundation? 2. Is a 4" steel channel with a 8m span strong enough to support the structure?

Thanks again to all.

Hey Somtham, glad you got it sorted out. In the end, you are happy paying 98,000thb (thats 2,000 less than what i stated in my initial post of 100,000 being reasonable, so, i was within 2% you might say) for an outfit that you are confident will do a good job of it. Thats the name of the game after all!

So, may Chownah please come back and show me the farang builders on this thread who are selling their inflated prices?