Recommended weight loss / muscle gain Supplements from pharmacy ?

[Rolanddrums]

thanks.

 

[tropo]

7 hours ago, Rolanddrums said:

If can stop saying 'I don't read/understand what you write' ..I'd appreciate it . I do read and I do understand . My balls are actually slightly bigger than 3-4 months ago as it happens . Having said that I am monitoring them daily in case they do shrink . As Ive said I'm using small doses AND very good diet Im hoping my natural test production will work alongside the Andriol . I have read can be the case. If I end up needing or wanting Andriol for ever its fine by me as I like the results. I know your quite knowledgeable and had some experience Tropo so I like your input when done in a less 'I know it all' or trying to dictate what I/others should be doing manner . (Seen on a lot of your posts tbh)  Lets keep it cool and friendly . Just makes TV forum a better place ..cheers.

11

Fair enough - we'll keep this friendly and as factual as possible.

 

 
You're taking about 1120mg of testosterone Undecanoate per week. That's about 80mg of exogenous testosterone considering a 7% absorption. A healthy young male produces between 4mg and 10mg per day. You're putting in 11mg extra, more than a healthy male produces. That will definetely suppress your own natural production due to a negative feedback loop, and eventually shut you down completely.

There's another problem with Andriol too. It has a very short half-life, so you need to be very regular with dosing to maintain healthy testosterone levels. If you take it before you sleep, you'll probably already be low by the time you wake up. As your own production has already slowed down or halted you won't have enough naturally produced testosterone to take up the slack.

 

So, summing it up, with Andriol you're getting all of the negatives that go with testosterone supplementation with few of the benefits as your levels will fluctuate wildly all day and night. If you injected, for example, with the oil esters you'll get a smooth supply for a week and longer. You will not drop low at any time. As you're still going to shut yourself down with Andriol, a more sustained supplement makes sense. When you factor in the cost comparison it becomes a no-brainer. Many years ago I used to buy Andriol Testocaps at a very good price at the time of 900 baht for 60. The regular price at the time was about 1200 baht for 60. That was long ago in about 2006. I have no idea what you pay now, but going by those old prices (900) and taking 4 per day, that's 1800 baht per month. Injectables at about 125mg dose per week can start at less than 200 baht per month including needles and syringes. I have been checking my blood sugar levels for a long time, so I'm used to sticking myself LOL.

You're probably never going to find this out until you one day decide to stop taking Andriol and get tested a few days later and find you're producing the testosterone of a school girl. How difficult it will be to improve your own production will depend on how long you've been supplementing. Of course, as you age your own level will drop even if you don't supplement, so you'll become a permanent candidate for TRT. Not that there's anything wrong with that as we're all in the same boat.

Testicular shrinkage cannot be monitored on a short timescale. It takes months and years. Even with fine calipers, you won't see a difference on a day to day basis. The daily shrinkage would be minuscule and undetectable.

As you've only just begun, you should take a break and get some measurements. It's a bit late to get a baseline though as suppression has already begun.

 

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. That would be nice, but it's impossible. There are sacrifices to be made.

 

I should mention too, if you want to keep the boys plump, you can take Hcg. Unfortunately, that means injecting yourself sub-cutaneously at least twice a week to be effective. It is very easy and painless though. It's not cheap or easy to find the real stuff though but it is around if you really want it.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by tropo

[Rolanddrums]

Ok thanks Tropo . Regarding your figures . Each capsule is 40mg , I understand the bit about 7% absorption, but putting that aside for one minute, is it 40mg of pure Test?... Or ( for example) 25% test 75% oil ( for example) . I only ask as if not 100% pure Test then thats a much lower mg amount of Test before I've even eaten one , which if it were the case changes your figures somewhat. Just asking as I don't know the answer to this but maybe you do .

If a young healthy male produces upto 10mg a day that is 70mg per week . On your calculations (As they are) Andriol gives 80mg per week ...not massively over . Need to compare weekly with weekly , not weekly with daily, but interesting none the less. Testocaps box of 60 =1000 baht so I guess better value ( And a much improved product ..apparently) than in 2006. ...Have a read up on the current version, I think is not the same as it was. Apparently it stays active in the body for 4 days ..at what level I dont know but overnight I don't think the effect has reduced ( Eg Still horny as hell in the morning).

ps I have my digital calipers at the ready ....oh to be a mechanical engineer..who would have thought in retirement I would be using my equipment to be measuring my equipment haha   Take care.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Rolanddrums

[dontoearth]

5 minutes ago, Rolanddrums said:

Ok thanks Tropo . Regarding your figures . Each capsule is 40mg , I understand the bit about 7% absorption, but putting that aside for one minute, is it 40mg of pure Test?... Or ( for example) 25% test 75% oil ( for example) . I only ask as if not 100% pure Test then thats a much lower mg amount of Test before I've even eaten one , which if it were the case changes your figures somewhat. Just asking as I don't know the answer to this but maybe you do .

If a young healthy male produces upto 10mg a day that is 70mg per week . On your calculations (As they are) Andriol gives 80mg per week ...not massively over . Need to compare weekly with weekly , not weekly with daily, but interesting none the less. Testocaps box of 60 =1000 baht so I guess better value ( And a much improved product ..apparently) than in 2006. ...Have a read up on the current version, I think is not the same as it was. Apparently it stays active in the body for 4 days ..at what level I dont know but overnight I don't think the effect has reduced ( Eg Still horny as hell in the morning).

ps I have my digital calipers at the ready ....oh to be a mechanical engineer..who would have thought in retirement I would be using my equipment to be measuring my equipment haha   Take care.

 

      Do you have the product website for the new Andriol Testocaps?  I wouldn't mind taking a long read of the product.  Not a sales site the actual real site from the manufacturer.  It would be much easier with the actual scientific data available.  This would be a repeat of the long small print tissue paper warnings which should be included in the box and the additional data the company offers for scientific comparison.  

       And a good idea on HCG.   You would enjoy it as my experience is a week or two of that makes quite a bang in extra joy juice at the end.  If you get my drift!  LOL. And it is administered with small scale diabetic needles.  And their is a pill version but I forgot the name.  The HCG equivalent pills are available in bkk.

[Rolanddrums]

Hi , no I dont have technical data sheets, but tons of info on google from so many differing (unbiased) sources . Interesting about Hcg . What does it stand for ?

...Manufacturer of the Testocaps is N V Organon btw.

[dontoearth]

35 minutes ago, Rolanddrums said:

Ok thanks Tropo . Regarding your figures . Each capsule is 40mg , I understand the bit about 7% absorption, but putting that aside for one minute, is it 40mg of pure Test?... Or ( for example) 25% test 75% oil ( for example) . I only ask as if not 100% pure Test then thats a much lower mg amount of Test before I've even eaten one , which if it were the case changes your figures somewhat. Just asking as I don't know the answer to this but maybe you do .

If a young healthy male produces upto 10mg a day that is 70mg per week . On your calculations (As they are) Andriol gives 80mg per week ...not massively over . Need to compare weekly with weekly , not weekly with daily, but interesting none the less. Testocaps box of 60 =1000 baht so I guess better value ( And a much improved product ..apparently) than in 2006. ...Have a read up on the current version, I think is not the same as it was. Apparently it stays active in the body for 4 days ..at what level I dont know but overnight I don't think the effect has reduced ( Eg Still horny as hell in the morning).

ps I have my digital calipers at the ready ....oh to be a mechanical engineer..who would have thought in retirement I would be using my equipment to be measuring my equipment haha   Take care.

 

   This from the NZ govt. which creates a little technical datasheet.  Will have to do a detailed search nothing comes up right away on this product other than endless online sales and steriod 'Bro' sites.  A tiny number of the steriod bro.' sites do have some knowledgeable people but not worth wading thru.  

     "Each capsule contains 40 mg testosterone undecanoate, equivalent to 25.3 mg testosterone dissolved in a mixture of castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate."

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/Datasheet/a/AndriolTestocaps.pdf

 

[Rolanddrums]

Ok , interesting you've just answered a question regarding 'amount of Test per capsule' I had put to Tropo . There  actually is only 25mg of Test per 40mg capsule . Therefore per week ( If sticking with the 4x capsules per day figures)...Thats 25mg x 4 capsules x 7 days =700mg x 7% absorption =49 mg .

If a healthly ( albeit younger) male produces up to 10mg  per day ( Tropos figures)... that's 70 mg per week . 

 ...49mg  per week from my Test capsules is actually considerably less than 70 mg . 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Rolanddrums

[dontoearth]

1 minute ago, Rolanddrums said:

Ok , interesting you've just answered a question regarding 'amount of Test per capsule' I had put to Tropo . There  actually is only 25mg of Test per 40mg capsule . Therefore per week ( If sticking with the 4x capsules per day figures)...Thats 25mg x 4 capsules x 7 days =700mg x 7% absorption =49 mg .

If a healthly ( albeit younger) male produces up to 10 per day ( Tropos figures)... that's 70 mg per week . 

 ...49mg  per week from my Test capsules is actually considerably less than 70 mg . 

 

      I will try to track down the original source datasheets.  You have two figures one is the actual contents and the estimated absorption.   You would also need know the active time in the body which somewhere I think you said was 4 days but again this should be from the actual manufacture who should conduct rigorous scientific test giving those statistics.  Remember the body purges itself of foreign substances so estimates are not of much use without someone having gone into a lab and having done rigorous timed recorded blood sample draws and analysis.   Guesses are just guesses.  Repeated facts with no idea of the original source are not good when discussing pharmaceuticals. 

       Anyway, I will stay curious but my own program starts in a few minutes and runs to about 2 pm.  So off to gym.

[Rolanddrums]

The 7% Absorption figure ( used by Tropo), I have seen to . I also read somewhere in tests carried out found its very important to take with food . In particular with Fat . It didn't require a huge amount , in fact larger amounts didn't improve absorption any further . I like 2 eggs + olive oil +avocado ...should be enough Fat. Instructions stress this to to be fair.  If you ignore instructions could be less. 

Because I am taking in 2 or 3 intervals throughout the day , the effect of ups and downs should be minimal .If I took 10 caps and waited 3 days before the next 10 it wouldn't be so consistent obviously . I think most people wouldn't space more than 12 hours apart tbh.

[dontoearth]

6 hours ago, Rolanddrums said:

The 7% Absorption figure ( used by Tropo), I have seen to . I also read somewhere in tests carried out found its very important to take with food . In particular with Fat . It didn't require a huge amount , in fact larger amounts didn't improve absorption any further . I like 2 eggs + olive oil +avocado ...should be enough Fat. Instructions stress this to to be fair.  If you ignore instructions could be less. 

Because I am taking in 2 or 3 intervals throughout the day , the effect of ups and downs should be minimal .If I took 10 caps and waited 3 days before the next 10 it wouldn't be so consistent obviously . I think most people wouldn't space more than 12 hours apart tbh.

    Evidently, not really!  From the website:

    "CONCLUSION:

Approximately 19 g of lipid per meal efficiently increases absorption of testosterone from oral TU. Therefore, coadministration with a normal rather than a fatty meal is sufficient to increase serum testosterone levels when using oral TU."

      from:  National Center for Biotechnology Information, U.S. National Library of Medicine8600 Rockville Pike, Bethesda MD, 20894 USA

       abstract of the research from pubmed:  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17371478

      This is the research abstract from the ncenter for biotechnology information,national library of medicine, national institute of health US govt.

        The only requirement is to take it with meals.   All that extra fat isn't helping you absorb.  

title of article:

The effect of food composition on serum testosterone levels after oral administration of Andriol Testocaps.

[dontoearth]

According to the republic of the phillipines this is your drug:

http://www.fda.gov.ph/consumers-corner/registered-drugs-2/299088-DR-XY30237

 

 

[tropo]

7 hours ago, Rolanddrums said:

Ok thanks Tropo . Regarding your figures . Each capsule is 40mg , I understand the bit about 7% absorption, but putting that aside for one minute, is it 40mg of pure Test?... Or ( for example) 25% test 75% oil ( for example) . I only ask as if not 100% pure Test then thats a much lower mg amount of Test before I've even eaten one , which if it were the case changes your figures somewhat. Just asking as I don't know the answer to this but maybe you do .

If a young healthy male produces upto 10mg a day that is 70mg per week . On your calculations (As they are) Andriol gives 80mg per week ...not massively over . Need to compare weekly with weekly , not weekly with daily, but interesting none the less. Testocaps box of 60 =1000 baht so I guess better value ( And a much improved product ..apparently) than in 2006. ...Have a read up on the current version, I think is not the same as it was. Apparently it stays active in the body for 4 days ..at what level I dont know but overnight I don't think the effect has reduced ( Eg Still horny as hell in the morning).

ps I have my digital calipers at the ready ....oh to be a mechanical engineer..who would have thought in retirement I would be using my equipment to be measuring my equipment haha   Take care.

 

I'm pretty sure what I used to buy was the new and improved version that you're taking now. Every capsule provides 40mg of Testosterone Undecanoate. It's 7% of that that is bioavailable testosterone. Incidentally, it's the same drug as Nebido, only that is injected intramuscularly.

 

Here's some information on Andriol's benefit as a muscle building drug:

 

https://juicedmuscle.com/jmblog/content/andriol-testosterone-undecanoate

 

And here's what I used to buy:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rolanddrums]

Either way , I still take it with food . Article I read (somewhere) said there needs to be fat in the food . I enjoy egg+avocado+ a little olive oil . Your article says doesn't need fat but good fats are healthy anyway so is not important either way. 

[dontoearth]

Similar FACTSHEET with the 7% absorption figure that Tropo used.

https://www.old.health.gov.il/units/pharmacy/trufot/alonim/Androxon_dr_1341386780146.pdf

I didn't really find any more scientific articles about this.  BTW, the fact sheet does say that it converts to estradiol sometimes for elimination from the body.  I haven't found any real science literature about that so I think this is a good jumping off point.   

[dontoearth]

2 minutes ago, Rolanddrums said:

Either way , I still take it with food . Article I read (somewhere) said there needs to be fat in the food . I enjoy egg+avocado+ a little olive oil . Your article says doesn't need fat but good fats are healthy anyway so is not important either way. 

     With all that extra fat do monitor your blood pressure.  Other than that as I have often said everyone can do whatever they want to do.  I don't limit fat and love the hill tribe eggs here in Thailand.  I do limit simple carbs and nutritional devoid food like beer and chips.

[Rolanddrums]

Im talking 1/2 tablespoon  not half a bottle ..twice a day ..and its good fat not trans fats.  Tastes delicious

[Rolanddrums]

QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE COMPOSITION Each capsule contains 40 mg testosterone undecanoate, which is equivalent to 25.3 mg testosterone. For excipients, see 6.1

 

..taken from Dontoearths Link.

So we need to using the 7% x 40mg, not the 7% x 25mg as a DIRECT COMPARISON of testosterone level  produced in the 'young healthy male' example you used Tropo?   

[tropo]

8 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

Similar FACTSHEET with the 7% absorption figure that Tropo used.

https://www.old.health.gov.il/units/pharmacy/trufot/alonim/Androxon_dr_1341386780146.pdf

I didn't really find any more scientific articles about this.  BTW, the fact sheet does say that it converts to estradiol sometimes for elimination from the body.  I haven't found any real science literature about that so I think this is a good jumping off point.   

There's is always going to be aromatization to estradiol if you're providing levels in excess of normal levels. Andriol is no different in this regard. It's not a magic form of testosterone, just a unique method of delivering it through the lymphatic system. Perhaps conversion will happen more slowly because of the inefficient absorption rate combined with the short half-life. The reason why many injectables have a long half-life is that they are injected into the muscle and absorbed slowly over longer periods. The esters used are designed for slow absorption from the muscle. Think of it as sustained-release. The 7% absorbed from Andriol is in the blood and ready to use immediately. All bioavailable testosterone quickly disappears if you don't top it up and that's why you need to take Andriol often. When you inject Nebido, which is the same drug, it is held deep in the muscle (2-inch needles you said?) and released slowly over weeks.

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, Rolanddrums said:

QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE COMPOSITION Each capsule contains 40 mg testosterone undecanoate, which is equivalent to 25.3 mg testosterone. For excipients, see 6.1

 

..taken from Dontoearths Link.

So we need to using the 7% x 40mg, not the 7% x 25mg as a DIRECT COMPARISON of testosterone level  produced in the 'young healthy male' example you used Tropo?   

I would say it's 7% of 40mg. Let's hope so - it's already low. I haven't seen the maths so I don't know for sure.

[tropo]

People who wish to naturally increase their testosterone levels and reduce estrogren should put some focus here:

 

1. Increase sleep to at least 7 hours per night.

2. Reduce body fat levels.

3. Consume at least 20% of their daily calorie intake as fat.

 

 

Low fat intake reduces testosterone production. High body fat levels increase aromatization of testosterone to estrogen as the enzyme resides in body fat. 

 

It's a vicious cycle. Low testosterone levels lead to increased body fat and less muscle. Increased body fat leads to increased estrogen.

[Duaned]

Nebido I do not use anymore I  have 2 boxes new sitting on shelf I prefer Ethanate fast acting!

[dontoearth]

16 hours ago, Duaned said:

Nebido I do not use anymore I  have 2 boxes new sitting on shelf I prefer Ethanate fast acting!

     I think I have read there are 4 different types of testosterone.  I am unsure what makes one better or more suitable than another one.  I picked Nebido because I can't inject myself.  I am a bleeder and a chicken shit!  So we got that out of the way!  LOL.   I have a clinic do the shot every 10 weeks.  I know guys doing weekly shots probably are getting better results but I am 61 I am just working off belly fat and toning.  And its going well.  I am beyond half way to my goal.  

     Other than fast acting do you have anymore to share about Ethanate?

[faraday]

All Testosterone is the same, it just depends on the absorption rate.