Condo lease and land ownership question

[bizboi]

Im thinking of buying a condo with my wife who’s Thai - we would be paying cash but Im not sure about land lease and how open western condo owners are to being ripped off by the land owner that the condo is built on. A friend tells me that if I buy a condo on my own a lease will apply. Will it be hard to sell as the lease ends and what percentage of condos have a problem with landlords renewing leases. He also tells me if i buy with my thai wife in effect SHE will own it because she will own 51% but the landlord will not have rights over the land that the condo is built on with her as the owner? My main fear is the the landlord could sell a condo on a 20 year remaining lease and knock the building down when he wants to, because he owns the land? Have I got this right? and do i have any protection if a landlord decides to do this after paying 3 million for a condo?

 

How open are you to being ripped off by landlords when buying a condo in Bangkok with a foreigner as sole owner and joint owner with a Thai wife??

Edited August 16, 2017 by bizboi

[trogers]

A Condo project has freehold ownership, and all unit owners are collectively co-owners over the land. The developer must cede land ownership of the project in order that title deeds can be issued by the Land department for the individual condo units.

 

Only an apartment building is on leasehold and the land it is built on belongs to a landowner. As such, apartment units have no title deeds, only lease contracts.

[KittenKong]

Condos in Phuket are widely available leasehold. They are real condos but the way they are sold is unusual when compared to what generally happens elsewhere. Even in Bangkok there are large and quite luxurious condo buildings that are on leases and not freeholds. In Pattaya I've only ever seen freehold condos.

 

But, as you rightly point out, in this particular instance it sounds as though the "condo" is not a condo at all but an apartment. As such no farang in his right mind should touch it at any price.

 

The OP should look for a proper condo, fully registered and declared as such at the local Land Office, and for which he can buy a unit in his own name and get a chanote with his name on it. Anything less is surely just another scam.

[trogers]

7 hours ago, KittenKong said:

Condos in Phuket are widely available leasehold. They are real condos but the way they are sold is unusual when compared to what generally happens elsewhere. Even in Bangkok there are large and quite luxurious condo buildings that are on leases and not freeholds. In Pattaya I've only ever seen freehold condos.

 

But, as you rightly point out, in this particular instance it sounds as though the "condo" is not a condo at all but an apartment. As such no farang in his right mind should touch it at any price.

 

The OP should look for a proper condo, fully registered and declared as such at the local Land Office, and for which he can buy a unit in his own name and get a chanote with his name on it. Anything less is surely just another scam.

No. I have not heard of any condo units in Bangkok being sold as leaseholds.

 

But there are big apartment blocks built and being built on 30-year leasehold land that are being sold as leaseholds. And at the end of the lease, all properties belong to the landowner.

[inThailand]

Yes, condos by legal defintion are freehold title deeds and each condo owns a percent of the land and common facilities as defined on each condo title deed and the bylaws.

 

Buy a condo that is in your name, ie foreigner freehold title. The best and only way to legally own property here.

Edited August 17, 2017 by inThailand
fat fingers

[trogers]

More words on Phuket. I wouldn't call selling 30-year leases on condo units a scam. It is always 'Buyers Beware'. Anyone who buys real property must be fully aware of what property rights they are acquiring.

 

Projects which cannot sell off their 51% Thai-owned quota may be priced at deep discounts and bring offered to foreigners on 30-year leases. But be warned. Such a buyer is only a TENANT, and not the property owner.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, trogers said:

No. I have not heard of any condo units in Bangkok being sold as leaseholds.

 

But there are big apartment blocks built and being built on 30-year leasehold land that are being sold as leaseholds. And at the end of the lease, all properties belong to the landowner.

 

Fair enough. My knowledge of Bangkok property is very limited, but I did think that some condos were being marketed that way. Certainly I've never come across it in Pattaya.

 

 

1 hour ago, trogers said:

More words on Phuket. I wouldn't call selling 30-year leases on condo units a scam.

 

I think that it's a scam in as much as such arrangements are promoted as being common and legal and safe, and a valid alternative to freehold. "30+30+30" leases are also often promoted the same way, yet they are not valid at all.

[smutcakes]

There are properties like Magnolia's which are being sold as Leasehold Condominium. A complete oxymoron in my opinion as being leasehold is completely contrary to the definition of Condominium in Thailand. In my view they are Apartment buildings plane and simple. They advertise as condominium, but you can be sure that it wont mention that word in the SPA.

[trogers]

23 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

There are properties like Magnolia's which are being sold as Leasehold Condominium. A complete oxymoron in my opinion as being leasehold is completely contrary to the definition of Condominium in Thailand. In my view they are Apartment buildings plane and simple. They advertise as condominium, but you can be sure that it wont mention that word in the SPA.

You mean like this?

 

https://www.cbre.co.th/en/Property/Detail/Buy/New-Project/Bangkok/Central-Lumpini/Magnolias-Ratchadamri-Boulevard

 

Even CBRE dare not mislead by using the term Condominium, because it is not. Note: Lease Period - 30, denotes this project as a 30-year Leasehold Apartment.

[smutcakes]

5 minutes ago, trogers said:

You mean like this?

 

https://www.cbre.co.th/en/Property/Detail/Buy/New-Project/Bangkok/Central-Lumpini/Magnolias-Ratchadamri-Boulevard

 

Even CBRE dare not mislead by using the term Condominium, because it is not. Note: Lease Period - 30, denotes this project as a 30-year Leasehold Apartment.

On Magnolias website they still refer to it as Condominium in some places. Other places they use Residence. I presume it still mentions Condominium as no one has actually bothered reading the blurb properly.

[MyFriend You]

On 8/17/2017 at 6:46 AM, trogers said:

No. I have not heard of any condo units in Bangkok being sold as leaseholds.

 

But there are big apartment blocks built and being built on 30-year leasehold land that are being sold as leaseholds. And at the end of the lease, all properties belong to the landowner.

Wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole...............

 

[tryasimight]

2 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

Wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole...............

 

Or a four foot Austrian

[bizboi]

Guys thank you all for commenting on this you’ve given a lot of information - can i just ask at what stage in a purchase of a condo and in what document is the lease or freehold status of a particular condo stated? Another words where and when will i find out the details of the lease for the building and the freehold arrangements statement for the property?

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by bizboi

[Destiny1990]

4 hours ago, bizboi said:

Guys thank you all for commenting on this you’ve given a lot of information - can i just ask at what stage in a purchase of a condo and in what document is the lease or freehold status of a particular condo stated? Another words where and when will i find out the details of the lease for the building and the freehold arrangements statement for the property?

 

Huh?

[trogers]

8 hours ago, bizboi said:

Guys thank you all for commenting on this you’ve given a lot of information - can i just ask at what stage in a purchase of a condo and in what document is the lease or freehold status of a particular condo stated? Another words where and when will i find out the details of the lease for the building and the freehold arrangements statement for the property?

 

A condo has no leasehold arrangement. It should be freehold from the start. Your final payment of a large sum is only made at the Land office when your name is registered in the title deed and handed to you.

 

Safest option is to buy completed condo units, and not those still in brochures.

[KittenKong]

10 hours ago, bizboi said:

can i just ask at what stage in a purchase of a condo and in what document is the lease or freehold status of a particular condo stated? Another words where and when will i find out the details of the lease for the building and the freehold arrangements statement for the property?

 

Rereading your first post the original "information" you got about leases seems to have come from the friend you mentioned. I would be inclined to ignore what he says as he doesnt seem to know what he is talking about. I suspect that he may be getting confused with rules relating to houses and land when purchased by Thai/farang couples.

 

What does the building developer say about how the units will be sold? Have you asked?

 

Can you give us more information about the building? Size? Number of units? State of completion?

 

Or are we, as I now suspect, just talking generally about a hypothetical building and eventual purchase?

[bizboi]

On 21/08/2017 at 10:49 AM, KittenKong said:

 

Rereading your first post the original "information" you got about leases seems to have come from the friend you mentioned. I would be inclined to ignore what he says as he doesnt seem to know what he is talking about. I suspect that he may be getting confused with rules relating to houses and land when purchased by Thai/farang couples.

 

What does the building developer say about how the units will be sold? Have you asked?

 

Can you give us more information about the building? Size? Number of units? State of completion?

 

Or are we, as I now suspect, just talking generally about a hypothetical building and eventual purchase?

Yes exactly - I’m talking about a planned purchase of a condo next June 2018. I dont have a specific property in mind - Im looking at properties of a certain value on "thai home town.com"

Edited August 23, 2017 by bizboi

[trogers]

7 minutes ago, bizboi said:

Yes exactly - I’m talking about a planned purchase of a condo next June 2018. I dont have a specific property in mind - Im looking at properties of a certain value on "thai home town.com"

When you shop on websites, be wary of advertised prices. There are many flippers out to sell their down payments and what is advertised may not be the total price, and the project remains uncompleted.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, bizboi said:

Yes exactly - I’m talking about a planned purchase of a condo next June 2018. I dont have a specific property in mind - Im looking at properties of a certain value on "thai home town.com"

 

I think that if you find a place you just need to see a copy of the chanote and get someone who can read Thai to see if the name on it is farang. If there is a chanote and the name is farang then there should be no trouble, and if there are any problems the Land Office should find them when they do the transfer.

 

If there is no chanote or the name is Thai then you need to start asking serious questions or, better still, just walk away with a smile and your wallet intact.

 

Either way, pay nothing to anyone until you are certain that you are getting what you want. For an existing unit in most cases there would be no need to pay anything prior to the transfer of title at the land office. For a unit that is still being built the situation is very different, as mentioned.

[inThailand]

On 23/08/2017 at 8:44 PM, KittenKong said:

 

I think that if you find a place you just need to see a copy of the chanote and get someone who can read Thai to see if the name on it is farang. If there is a chanote and the name is farang then there should be no trouble, and if there are any problems the Land Office should find them when they do the transfer.

 

If there is no chanote or the name is Thai then you need to start asking serious questions or, better still, just walk away with a smile and your wallet intact.

 

Either way, pay nothing to anyone until you are certain that you are getting what you want. For an existing unit in most cases there would be no need to pay anything prior to the transfer of title at the land office. For a unit that is still being built the situation is very different, as mentioned.

Sound and prudent advice.

If the title is "good", then request the condo's bylaws, rules and regs and the latest audited financial reports. With a review of this and the latest year to date financial statements, you just need to verify if the condo fees are paid up. The condo JP Mgr will have to provide this debt free letter before the Land Office will do the title transfer. 

[bizboi]

On 23/08/2017 at 6:11 PM, trogers said:

When you shop on websites, be wary of advertised prices. There are many flippers out to sell their down payments and what is advertised may not be the total price, and the project remains uncompleted.

Yes thanks - actually my wife is doing the looking so she’s using  a Thai website that lists if its part or total payment and obviously I wouldn’t hand over one baht without agreeing the full asking price first

[bizboi]

On 25/08/2017 at 7:49 AM, inThailand said:

Sound and prudent advice.

If the title is "good", then request the condo's bylaws, rules and regs and the latest audited financial reports. With a review of this and the latest year to date financial statements, you just need to verify if the condo fees are paid up. The condo JP Mgr will have to provide this debt free letter before the Land Office will do the title transfer. 

Thanks thats great advice