Acquiring fiscal residence in Thailand

[JoeBloe]

I am currently using a 12 month non-immigrant ME O visa. When I was applying for a visa, O-A visas were not being issued in my country of residence (I have recently checked again and they are now being issued again), so all I could get was an O. I travel a lot, so the 90 day reporting requirement never happens.

 

• I will spend >180 days in Thailand this year.
• I do not earn any wage/salary/pension income in any country - I am retired on my own wealth, so I have investment income.
• I actually WANT to be fiscally resident in Thailand

 

According to what I have read, 180+ days in Thailand verified by visa entry/exit stamps for a calendar year puts me firmly in fiscal residence in Thailand. I read somewhere that unlike European countries, the Thai tax office counts the two ends of each period in-country as only one day, but have not confirmed this.

 

Being released from the fiscal residence of my previous country of residence REQUIRES that the Thais accept me as a fiscal resident. There is a double taxation agreement between Thailand and my country of former residence, which I officially left 31/12-2016.

 

So, how do I actually become a fiscal resident for 2017?

To whom do I apply, and does anyone have experience? (an earlier post indicated some issues).

 

Obviously it will have to wait until 2018 and be applied retrospectively.

Comments welcome.

[KittenKong]

Just go to your local revenue office and ask for a tax number. They will tell you what documents they want but as far as I remember for me it was copies of most of my passport and a utility bill.

[skatewash]

My suggestion is to go to any Thai bank and open a short (3-month) fixed term deposit account.  Because of the nature of the account, 15% of the interest earned will be automatically withheld by the bank.  At the beginning of the new year, you will be able to go to your bank and get a statement of the interest withheld.  Take that statement to your local revenue office and explain that you want to reclaim the interest withheld.  They will accept an application for a Thai Tax ID number from you and give you (or even fill out for you) a Thai Income Tax Return.  File that income tax return by the end of March and you will receive your interest back.

 

The reason for doing this is to give you an understandable reason for wanting to obtain a Thai Tax ID and to file a Thai Income Tax Return (i.e., to reclaim your interest withheld from the fixed term deposit).  My advice is based on the assumption that you may, in fact, not have a Thai income tax liability.  If you are retired and are living entirely off of investment income as long as that income is not brought into Thailand in the year it was earned then it is not subject to Thai income taxes.  I'm also assuming you have a reason for wanting to file a Thai Income Tax return.  Reclaiming your interest withheld from a fixed term deposit account is a common and understandable reason for obtaining a Thai Tax ID and filing a Thai Income Tax return.  

[Oxx]

9 minutes ago, skatewash said:

as long as that income is not brought into Thailand in the year it was earned then it is not subject to Thai income taxes.

Though I rather doubt anyone has actually paid tax on money brought in the same year.  It's rather theoretical.

[JoeBloe]

1 hour ago, skatewash said:

My suggestion is to go to any Thai bank and open a short (3-month) fixed term deposit account.  Because of the nature of the account, 15% of the interest earned will be automatically withheld by the bank.  At the beginning of the new year, you will be able to go to your bank and get a statement of the interest withheld.  Take that statement to your local revenue office and explain that you want to reclaim the interest withheld.  They will accept an application for a Thai Tax ID number from you and give you (or even fill out for you) a Thai Income Tax Return.  File that income tax return by the end of March and you will receive your interest back.

 

The reason for doing this is to give you an understandable reason for wanting to obtain a Thai Tax ID and to file a Thai Income Tax Return (i.e., to reclaim your interest withheld from the fixed term deposit).  My advice is based on the assumption that you may, in fact, not have a Thai income tax liability.  If you are retired and are living entirely off of investment income as long as that income is not brought into Thailand in the year it was earned then it is not subject to Thai income taxes.  I'm also assuming you have a reason for wanting to file a Thai Income Tax return.  Reclaiming your interest withheld from a fixed term deposit account is a common and understandable reason for obtaining a Thai Tax ID and filing a Thai Income Tax return.  

I m trying to move my tax liability from one country to another. I will not be paying any income tax in Thailand or my previous residence country, I just need to be registered as being liable to do so.

 

Getting bank accounts is difficult without an O-A. I have a personal savings account at SCB, from long ago when it was easier to obtain. It accrues some trivial interest, but as far s I can see there is no withholding tax. I have accounts in other countries which withhold tax every month with the interest accrual.

 

I might try the skatewsh's idea easily, which is cunning and may smooth the process. Thanks for that idea, but it awaits to be seen if I can make a fixed term deposit account.

[Oxx]

9 minutes ago, JoeBloe said:

Getting bank accounts is difficult without an O-A.

 

You're overestimating the difficulty.  Check the Bangkok Bank website.  All you need is (a) to enter the country on a tourist visa, (b) your passport, and (c) a document that shows your name.  Print out that page in Thai and take it with you when you go to open an account.

 

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/Accounts/FixedDeposits/Pages/default.aspx

[skatewash]

5 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

You're overestimating the difficulty.  Check the Bangkok Bank website.  All you need is (a) to enter the country on a tourist visa, (b) your passport, and (c) a document that shows your name.  Print out that page in Thai and take it with you when you go to open an account.

 

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/Accounts/FixedDeposits/Pages/default.aspx

You increase your odds of being able to open an account by trying a larger branch that is used to dealing with foreigners, that is, one in areas where foreigners tend to live and/or work.  The reason for this is that the likelihood of someone being able to comfortably speak English working at the bank is greater.  Also, it's a lot easier to get someone to do something they already have experience doing (opening an account for a foreigner) than trying to get someone to do something they may not be very familiar with and therefore perhaps concerned about making some mistake that will reflect badly on them.  If you haven't done something before, it's often just easier to say it can't be done.  It's simply human nature and not too uncommon in Thailand.

[Oxx]

15 minutes ago, skatewash said:

You increase your odds of being able to open an account by trying a larger branch that is used to dealing with foreigners, that is, one in areas where foreigners tend to live and/or work.  The reason for this is that the likelihood of someone being able to comfortably speak English working at the bank is greater.  Also, it's a lot easier to get someone to do something they already have experience doing (opening an account for a foreigner) than trying to get someone to do something they may not be very familiar with and therefore perhaps concerned about making some mistake that will reflect badly on them.  If you haven't done something before, it's often just easier to say it can't be done.  It's simply human nature and not too uncommon in Thailand.

 

I've initially been rejected in branches not used to dealing with foreigners with "come back with someone who speaks Thai", even though I speak Thai pretty fluently.  One just needs to stick to one's guns (and stay calm).  That's really why it's helpful to have the website print out.

[khunPer]

I would say it's more a question of checking fiscally out of your own home-country, that can be easy or difficult, depending from where you originate...

[JoeBloe]

1 hour ago, khunPer said:

I would say it's more a question of checking fiscally out of your own home-country, that can be easy or difficult, depending from where you originate...

"You can checkout any time you want, but you can never leave"

 

The check-out process requires proof of check-in in another country. My country of previous residence even provides an official form in English that is acceptable to them if signed and stamped by a foreign tax department!

[JoeBloe]

5 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

You're overestimating the difficulty.  Check the Bangkok Bank website.  All you need is (a) to enter the country on a tourist visa, (b) your passport, and (c) a document that shows your name.  Print out that page in Thai and take it with you when you go to open an account.

 

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/Accounts/FixedDeposits/Pages/default.aspx

SCB require a work permit before they will talk to you. They also require a rental agreement for where one lives.

 

I managed to convince them that a Chanot with my name on it was acceptable and that since a 1 year O is the only visa my home country would issue, that this was also sufficient. Further they need passport copies. After that, they will send it all to head office in order to cover themselves and you will wait for a week or so before an account will be authorised from head office

I know this (a) because I did it 6 months ago when I needed another bank account at the branch where I already have an account and a 10 year history and (b) I did it today getting a fixed deposit account. My branch is near Asok pretty much "Downtown Expatville"

[Oxx]

5 minutes ago, JoeBloe said:

SCB require a work permit before they will talk to you. They also require a rental agreement for where one lives.

 

Then don't use SCB.  Use a bank that doesn't have those requirements.  And stop belly-aching about how difficult it is.  It isn't.

[JoeBloe]

8 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

Then don't use SCB.  Use a bank that doesn't have those requirements.  And stop belly-aching about how difficult it is.  It isn't.

I recall that the reason I started with SCB ca. 10 years ago was that they were flexible and helpful, while the people I spoke to at Bangkok bank were thorough faring, ignorant c*s - and spoke English well enough to insure that they left that impression.

 

"Ease" is relative and in this country depends as much on with whom you are dealing as the actual regulations that might be involved - you probably already know that.

 

YMMV

Anyway, I have taken skatewash's advice, so I expect to be able to get a tax id later in the year, which I hope to convert to a Certificate of Fiscal Residence.

ps: I searched in vain for "belly-aching" in my posts.

Edited August 18, 2017 by JoeBloe
ps

[tryasimight]

Good luck...trying to dodge taxes can be a minefield.

 

You didn't mention what country you are from. It might help members in a similar situation if you did.

Sharing of information is a useful function of this forum.

[JoeBloe]

4 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

Good luck...trying to dodge taxes can be a minefield.

 

You didn't mention what country you are from. It might help members in a similar situation if you did.

Sharing of information is a useful function of this forum.

I am not trying to dodge taxes.

I am trying to move my tax residence, legally.

 

There are laws and treaties that cover this. I will be perfectly happy to pay tax in Thailand (and it is quite high) according to the Thai tax code.

[lkv]

2 minutes ago, JoeBloe said:

7 hours ago, JoeBloe said:

I m trying to move my tax liability from one country to another. I will not be paying any income tax in Thailand or my previous residence country, I just need to be registered as being liable to do so.

There are laws and treaties that cover this. I will be perfectly happy to pay tax in Thailand (and it is quite high) according to the Thai tax code.

Huh? ?

[tryasimight]

4 minutes ago, JoeBloe said:

I am not trying to dodge taxes.

I am trying to move my tax residence, legally.

 

There are laws and treaties that cover this. I will be perfectly happy to pay tax in Thailand (and it is quite high) according to the Thai tax code.

No problem

[JoeBloe]

1 minute ago, lkv said:

Huh? ?

Parse my statements correctly, they are not incompatible

[Crisu]

I moved from the eu to TH too. I have never registerred with the local tax office. I have no income in th nor i bring taxable income to TH. Dont need the tax ID. Since i have no residence in my old home in the EU too, i am not taxable there too.

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, JoeBloe said:

"You can checkout any time you want, but you can never leave"

 

The check-out process requires proof of check-in in another country. My country of previous residence even provides an official form in English that is acceptable to them if signed and stamped by a foreign tax department!

I'm lucky then – and happy it's not "California" I'm checking out from – just registering a foreign address outside EU (and associated EØS) is enough to sign out and "leave" the overcharged homeland-tax for good...

[lkv]

7 hours ago, JoeBloe said:

Parse my statements correctly, they are not incompatible

Yes I know what you mean. You will be more than happy to pay zero tax since you're not liable for any.

 

Out of interest, is this CRS /AEOI related?

Edited August 18, 2017 by lkv

[JoeBloe]

18 hours ago, lkv said:

Yes I know what you mean. You will be more than happy to pay zero tax since you're not liable for any.

 

Out of interest, is this CRS /AEOI related?

My brain can't translate those two acronyms at the moment

[skatewash]

21 minutes ago, JoeBloe said:

My brain can't translate those two acronyms at the moment

http://www.ird.govt.nz/international/exchange/crs/aeoi-crs/aeoi-crs.html

 

[JoeBloe]

On 8/19/2017 at 3:01 AM, lkv said:

Yes I know what you mean. You will be more than happy to pay zero tax since you're not liable for any.

 

Out of interest, is this CRS /AEOI related?

No. I will have dual residence, I need to be tax resident in one place, not both. There are treaties & rules, I am following them. There is nothing under the rug.

[suzannegoh]

By any chance are you American and are you thinking that being a "fiscal resident" in Thailand would make you a "Thai national" by the definition used in the US-Thailand tax treaty?

[JoeBloe]

No, I am not American.

[JoeBloe]

On 8/18/2017 at 12:23 AM, KittenKong said:

Just go to your local revenue office and ask for a tax number. They will tell you what documents they want but as far as I remember for me it was copies of most of my passport and a utility bill.

I thought I'd bump this with updated information.

 

I did just as KittenKong suggested a few days back.

 

The Revenue Office need a Thai TIN to issue the fiscal residence document http://www.rd.go.th/publish/21978.0.html

 

I had several thousand THB in bank interest, so I filled out a tax form with the address on my electrical bill, got a TIN, lodged a return, paid no tax as it was under 60,000THB threshold, paid 100THB for lodging my return late and proceeded with my TIN and zero receipt to the next step.

 

Took my TIN, receipt, passport and stamps totaling >=180 days in Thailand to a different building for verification and now wait 14 days for the document to be issued.

The individuals at the tax office were polite, helpful and generally likable - more or less the diametrical opposite of the sort of person one meets at CW immigration office. YMMV