What can happen if a lessee breaks a contract early?

[pineapplepen]

Hi,

 

Ive recently had to move my wife and newborn child out of a house that we were 3 months into our 3rd 1 year contract after the landlady got nasty and later abusive with my wife.

 

I wont write the whole story but these are the main points condensed down as much as possible:

 

A request was made to me via email to cut a tree down as it was apparently a storm threat (even though all the surrounding houses have them) which was agreed to

 

When the staff came to do this they they proceeded to butcher almost every tree in around the house while a representative of the landlady gave instructions. Removing these trees destroyed all the privacy and natural shade and requests to stop cutting them down were ignored.

 

Later on abusive and derogatory comments were made about my wife on Facebook in comments with the above mentioned representative. After seeing this my wife screen capped it and sent it to the landlady asking who she was referring to, the landlady then called her and started and ranting and shouting and saying how she didnt need her money and she didnt even want to extend the contract this year etc etc. 

 

After this I decided enough was enough and sent a detailed email to the landlady saying there was to be no further communication between her and my wife and that we wanted to break the contract and leave the house. A reply was sent back to me saying that we could discuss that and then I replied saying Id be happy to forfeit 50% of the deposit, pay all bills to date (the rent was paid for that month too) and then leave. After 5 days there was still no reply to my last email so we quickly found a new house, signed the contract and then moved out. At this point I was prepared to lose the 2 months deposit.

 

I then sent an email stating we had left and who I should give the keys to. A day later I got an email from someone who said they were the landladys lawyer and asking when they could get the keys and inspect the house so I agreed to meet them.

 

At the meeting I handed over the keys and let her inspect the house, there is some wear and tear damage to the house such as; some water damage around the wooden kitchen sink surface area, shower wall holder has detached in one bathroom, some blinds broken and generally it needs a bit of a clean (but not too bad). The lawyer started bringing these things up and I said they can take it out of the deposit and then she starts going on about how she is going to submit to court and so on, at this point I said I was leaving and that they can take damages out of the deposit, the lawyer then starts saying something about submitting things to the court about my wife etc etc (the contract is in my name though) but I was half way out the door at this point.

 

So, thats where Im at as of right now. Im just wondering what the landlady can do in this case and is it even worth pursuing? I would have thought that as she wants to sell and I have forfeited the deposit (a sizable 5 figure sum btw) that it wouldn't be worth it.

 

 

 

 

[HooHaa]

you forfeit deposit and leave after providing the thai tax authority copies of all contracts and rent receipts to landlady including deposit over the last 3 years.

 

excellent chance she is not declaring the income and could find things a little uncomfortable once they look into it.

[HooHaa]

and if you are really vindictive sue the hell out of her for defamation of character on your wifes behalf, but that will cost you money.

[pineapplepen]

1 minute ago, HooHaa said:

and if you are really vindictive sue the hell out of her for defamation of character on your wifes behalf, but that will cost you money.

Yeah I was thinking about that, not sure Id want to tbh, is that a viable option?

 

Yes I have forfeited all of the deposit, all bills and rent has been paid, there is some damage like I said, just wondering if she will pursue it. What would she have to do if she wanted to pursue this? She spends most of her time outside of Thailand as Im aware too.

[HooHaa]

5 minutes ago, pineapplepen said:

Yeah I was thinking about that, not sure Id want to tbh, is that a viable option?

 

Yes I have forfeited all of the deposit, all bills and rent has been paid, there is some damage like I said, just wondering if she will pursue it. What would she have to do if she wanted to pursue this? She spends most of her time outside of Thailand as Im aware too.

no its not worth it. reporting her to the tax people is certainly doable and will certainly hit her in the pocket if she is not declaring.

 

very unlikely she can do anything, but keep your screen caps.  

its more likely that she simply wanted some gravy on top of the deposit.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by HooHaa

[pineapplepen]

33 minutes ago, HooHaa said:

no its not worth it. reporting her to the tax people is certainly doable and will certainly hit her in the pocket if she is not declaring.

 

very unlikely she can do anything, but keep your screen caps.  

its more likely that she simply wanted some gravy on top of the deposit.

 

OK thanks.

 

Is cutting the trees outside of what was agreed in the email enough grounds for break of contract? Can the online and phone abuse be used for that too?

 

If it actually went to court would she have to actually attend in person and on the date the court set or can someone attend on her behalf?

[Aussieroaming]

What does your contract state in regards to T &C's? At the end of the day the contract states both yours and the landlady's obligations. I would suggest that if she believes in good faith that the trees were removed because of risk to people or property that she would be entitled to remove them, whether it was really required or not might be debatable but in the eyes of the court she is acting properly in regards to safeguarding the property and her tenants. 

 

As for your bond, what does the lease state in regards to early termination of the contract? My suggestion would be that as a minimum you bring in a contractor to quote on lump sum repair of any damage, so that you have an opportunity to argue if she presents you with an inflated repair bill, because her argument may be that the bond being held is insufficient to cover damage and penalty's associated with terminating your lease early.

 

She sounds like a beast by the way.

[pineapplepen]

11 minutes ago, Aussieroaming said:

What does your contract state in regards to T &C's? At the end of the day the contract states both yours and the landlady's obligations. I would suggest that if she believes in good faith that the trees were removed because of risk to people or property that she would be entitled to remove them, whether it was really required or not might be debatable but in the eyes of the court she is acting properly in regards to safeguarding the property and her tenants. 

 

As for your bond, what does the lease state in regards to early termination of the contract? My suggestion would be that as a minimum you bring in a contractor to quote on lump sum repair of any damage, so that you have an opportunity to argue if she presents you with an inflated repair bill, because her argument may be that the bond being held is insufficient to cover damage and penalty's associated with terminating your lease early.

 

She sounds like

a beast by the way.

 

A lot of the trees that were cut were mid sized and no where near the house, also all the bushes around the house were cut down, these trees and bushes provided natural shade against the sun which was badly needed as the living room had 3 huge windows. After these were cut it was very hot in there even with the air on full what (which would cost us more money) and we had to sleep our upstairs during the day because of this.

 

Also cutting all these trees and bushes down removed all the privacy around the house and anyone could just stare in.

 

In the email about this only one large tree was requested to be cut down along with a picture of it and only this was agreed to.

 

There is nothing that covers this situation in the contract, the only mention of agreed termination is that if I have to leave Thailand early then it can be broken early if not less than 6 months but that I need to give 30 days notice and then the deposit can be returned but if I break the contract for any other reason then the deposit will not be returned. The contract also doesn't state anything about her making changes to the house.

 

 

[Minnehaha]

12 hours ago, HooHaa said:

you forfeit deposit and leave after providing the thai tax authority copies of all contracts and rent receipts to landlady including deposit over the last 3 years.

 

excellent chance she is not declaring the income and could find things a little uncomfortable once they look into it.

 

excellent advice.

we are in this industry and based on the story you have given, the above suggestion is accurate - you have no liability beyond loss of deposit. If the contract reads that "deposit shall be applied to any damages beyond normal wear and tear" and this is standard language, then you should be safe from any liability beyond deposit forfeit deposit; i.e. they should not be able to force you to pay for any repairs beyond normal wear and tear. 

 

his comment about her not declaring the income is interesting as you say you can show 2 or 3 years of paper trail. however, remember that officials can be paid off and confronting a Thai in a legal context can be risky. I have seen surprising outcome in such context. 

[pineapplepen]

14 minutes ago, Minnehaha said:

 

excellent advice.

we are in this industry and based on the story you have given, the above suggestion is accurate - you have no liability beyond loss of deposit. If the contract reads that "deposit shall be applied to any damages beyond normal wear and tear" and this is standard language, then you should be safe from any liability beyond deposit forfeit deposit; i.e. they should not be able to force you to pay for any repairs beyond normal wear and tear. 

 

his comment about her not declaring the income is interesting as you say you can show 2 or 3 years of paper trail. however, remember that officials can be paid off and confronting a Thai in a legal context can be risky. I have seen surprising outcome in such context. 

 

The contract definitely doesn't say that about the deposit covering beyond normal wear and tear but the only real damage is as follows:

 

Water damage on the wooden surface around the kitchen sink

Shower head detached from the wall

Some blinds in the office broken

 

I would like to think that the first item counts as normal wear and tear as obvs. water gets splashed around a sink when you use it over 2+ years, the other 2 things are on me and I guess Id be ok to pay for those things if they really want to push it.

 

Finally there is some leakage and water damage from the water pipes below one of the bathrooms and this has seeped through to the parking area below, this has been there well over a year though and she has been notified about it multiple times. One time it was fixed by just cutting away the damaged ceiling area and replacing it and of course it came back and the second time she just had the damaged area cut out and then it was left to be fixed 'later' and whenever someone showered in that bathroom it would leak a bit of water onto the car below. I guess that is not normal wear and tear though?

 

I want to actually contact this agent/lawyer now and offer some money to pay for a few things just to make this go away as dont like it looming over me but my mrs is saying to just leave it...

Edited August 30, 2017 by pineapplepen

[snowgard]

I hope for you that you made photos or a video of the damages. Otherwise it can be that you get a heavy bill for repairing the damage. ;-)

If you break a contract, think about the badest what a landlord can bring to you and be prepared for it.

[Inquisitorial]

13 hours ago, pineapplepen said:

Yeah I was thinking about that, not sure Id want to tbh, is that a viable option?

 

Yes I have forfeited all of the deposit, all bills and rent has been paid, there is some damage like I said, just wondering if she will pursue it. What would she have to do if she wanted to pursue this? She spends most of her time outside of Thailand as Im aware too.

Hope you took photos of the damage for proof later just in case they say damage was worse than it actually was.  I agree with earlier post if you let them know you are going to the tax office to make sure all taxes have been paid may assist your cause,  Good Luck

[Senechal]

My two baht: 

 

Just walk away. You'll lose your deposit and nothing more. Keep in mind that in Thailand there is always an uncomfortably high likelihood of losing deposits anyway -- especially when relationships sour.

 

The tax thing may sound like a good plan, but IMHO it's not worth it. Don't make enemies here. And don't ever think the legal system will treat you fairly. You're much better off avoiding confrontation and putting the whole thing behind you.

 

 

[pineapplepen]

21 minutes ago, Inquisitorial said:

Hope you took photos of the damage for proof later just in case they say damage was worse than it actually was.  I agree with earlier post if you let them know you are going to the tax office to make sure all taxes have been paid may assist your cause,  Good Luck

 

Yes took pictures after we had moved all our stuff out showing every room and section of the house from multiple angles so if they try and make damages themselves and claim it was me I can prove it. When I sent the email saying I was leaving I made sure to mention I had taken pictures too and also mentioned this in another email to their 'lawyer'.

 

Btw I say 'lawyer' as she turned up on the back of a motorbike taxi when I met her and was wearing jeans, not sure if thats normal attire for lawyers here??

[Sydebolle]

The smart thing to do is to just walk away and forfeit the deposit. 

Make it crystal clear though, that if there is a single word about your wife or you on social media then you'd sue for bad mouthing which, in Thailand, can be and is done in millions of Baht. That should put a lid onto the story. 

Everything else is a waste of time and energy. 

[Xobtsiwt]

How many times does it need to be said, a farang suing a Thai over defamation, or even being merely the instigator in the background behind a wife, is an extremely bad idea; not only will it cost a lot of money but also your wife's chances of losing the action are very high if you are dragged into the matter, which you almost certainly will be; in addition, the chances of her being counter-sued are high if your landlady is better connected than you, which given your relationship as tenant/owner she probably is. Then there is the possibility of the suppurating bad feeling generated by the case, which may well cling to you for years afterwards. Do you really want such hassles over a few thousand Baht, and a defamation which you will have forgotten about in three months' time?

My advice is to walk away, you have lost very little so far.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Xobtsiwt

[mstevens]

20 hours ago, Senechal said:

My two baht: 

 

Just walk away. You'll lose your deposit and nothing more. Keep in mind that in Thailand there is always an uncomfortably high likelihood of losing deposits anyway -- especially when relationships sour.

 

The tax thing may sound like a good plan, but IMHO it's not worth it. Don't make enemies here. And don't ever think the legal system will treat you fairly. You're much better off avoiding confrontation and putting the whole thing behind you.

 

 

 

When reporting a landlord who has ripped you off by failing to return your deposit, first of all never threaten them with this so they don't know it was you.  Second, wait until a bit of time has passed.  You don't need to tell the tax people what the alleged offence is - just provide the person's name and bank account number and tell the tax people that the person has been gloating about making lots of money and not paying tax.  The tax people will do the rest - and when they see deposits of the same amount being made at the same time each month, they will know that it is most likely rent.