Uk Settlement Visa Refused

[apetley]

Hi, I have a friend who's wife has just been refused a settlement visa to the UK and needs some advice as how to proceed.

As background he was previously married to a Thai.

She deserted him and did a runner back to Thailand in October 2005, before she had ILR in UK.

He met his girlfriend, now wife, in the UK in Dec 2005 when she was there on a UK Visitor Visa.

They have had daily contact since she went back to Thailand by telephone.

He finally divorced his ex wife in November 2006 and married his girlfriend in Thailand 10 days later.

Now the main reasons for refusal.

1. 'As your sponsors domicile is the UK, I do not consider a Thai divorce to be credible under UK law"

Then why did the the UK Embassy in BKK give him the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry document after showing the Thai Divorce papers?

2. 'I note your sponsors previous wife submitted an application to visit him in the UK in April 2006. I am therefore not satisfied that the length of your relationship is as you claim'

The reason her application was turned down was because he did not support it as the relationship was over!

If anyone can offer any advice on how he can proceed either through appeal or another application I will be glad to pass it on as they are both extremely upset at this seemingly unreasonable decision.

Thanks for reading.

[topfield]

Hi, I have a friend who's wife has just been refused a settlement visa to the UK and needs some advice as how to proceed.

As background he was previously married to a Thai.

She deserted him and did a runner back to Thailand in October 2005, before she had ILR in UK.

He met his girlfriend, now wife, in the UK in Dec 2005 when she was there on a UK Visitor Visa.

They have had daily contact since she went back to Thailand by telephone.

He finally divorced his ex wife in November 2006 and married his girlfriend in Thailand 10 days later.

Now the main reasons for refusal.

1. 'As your sponsors domicile is the UK, I do not consider a Thai divorce to be credible under UK law"

Then why did the the UK Embassy in BKK give him the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry document after showing the Thai Divorce papers?

2. 'I note your sponsors previous wife submitted an application to visit him in the UK in April 2006. I am therefore not satisfied that the length of your relationship is as you claim'

The reason her application was turned down was because he did not support it as the relationship was over!

If anyone can offer any advice on how he can proceed either through appeal or another application I will be glad to pass it on as they are both extremely upset at this seemingly unreasonable decision.

Thanks for reading.

Oh no. That stupid woman has again decided an Amphur divorce between a UK domiciled husband and his Thai wife is not recognised under UK law !

How many refusal notices must this woman issue before she is told she is wrong and /or fired ?

[the scouser]

Based on the information you've given, there would appear to be good grounds for making representations in the matter to UK Visas. I wouldn't bother with the embassy as they just give the stock response that you have the right of appeal if you believe the decision to be wrong. Your friend should also submit the notice of appeal within the allotted 28 days, and this will then act as a fallback should the matter not be satisfactorily resolved by other means.

I don't think a second application will serve any purpose, as it is likely that the visa section would reach the same conclusion a second time, no matter how flawed.

Scouse.

[the scouser]

Having looked at the ECO's instructions, it would appear that the visa officer is seeking to argue that a divorce at an amphur does not constitute proceedings. The guidance states:-

An overseas divorce obtained otherwise than by means of proceedings is recognised in the UK if:

1. it is valid in the country in which it was obtained;

2. at the relevant date, both parties were domiciled in that country or one was domiciled there and the other was domiciled in a country which recognised the divorce;

3. neither party had been habitually resident in the United Kingdom throughout the period of one year immediately preceding that date.

Applying these conditions to the OP's friend, he would fall down, arguably on point 2, and certainly on point 3.

However, the guidance also states:-

Under the Family Law Act 1986 an overseas divorce obtained by means of proceedings is only recognised in the UK if:

1. it is valid in the country in which it was obtained;

2. at the relevant date, either party was either habitually resident or domiciled in that country or was a national of that country.

Therefore, if an amphur divorce is considered to constitute proceedings, it is clear that the divorce in question would be acceptable in the UK as it is valid in Thailand and at the relevant date the then-wife was a Thai national.

In order to constitute proceedings, the procedure does not have to be judicial. As such, I would maintain that an amphur divorce amounts to proceedings and that the OP's friend's divorce is valid in UK law.

Additionally, I don't like the ECO's statement that the divorce is not "credible". How can a divorce be either credible or non-credible? I would have thought "valid" or "acceptable" would have been better phraseology.

Scouse.

[topfield]

Hi, I have a friend who's wife has just been refused a settlement visa to the UK and needs some advice as how to proceed.

As background he was previously married to a Thai.

She deserted him and did a runner back to Thailand in October 2005, before she had ILR in UK.

He met his girlfriend, now wife, in the UK in Dec 2005 when she was there on a UK Visitor Visa.

They have had daily contact since she went back to Thailand by telephone.

He finally divorced his ex wife in November 2006 and married his girlfriend in Thailand 10 days later.

Now the main reasons for refusal.

1. 'As your sponsors domicile is the UK, I do not consider a Thai divorce to be credible under UK law"

Then why did the the UK Embassy in BKK give him the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry document after showing the Thai Divorce papers?

2. 'I note your sponsors previous wife submitted an application to visit him in the UK in April 2006. I am therefore not satisfied that the length of your relationship is as you claim'

The reason her application was turned down was because he did not support it as the relationship was over!

If anyone can offer any advice on how he can proceed either through appeal or another application I will be glad to pass it on as they are both extremely upset at this seemingly unreasonable decision.

Thanks for reading.

Sorry Scouse...your advice to complain to UK Visas will not work in this case .

Firstly because they almost always back their Embassy, even where the ECM is blatently wrong

Secondly because their current policy on such matters to to refer the inquirer to the IND.

IND will refer the matter back as this is a visa ie FCO matter !!

[the scouser]

Sorry Scouse...your advice to complain to UK Visas will not work in this case .

Firstly because they almost always back their Embassy, even where the ECM is blatently wrong

Secondly because their current policy on such matters to to refer the inquirer to the IND.

IND will refer the matter back as this is a visa ie FCO matter !!

That's not my experience, I'm afraid.

Scouse.

[the gent]

Some posts ago I observed that a danger confronting the visa applicant ingenue was falling into the cracks of a system which generally runs along tramlines and is therefore unused to dealing with something beyond its immediate comprehension. In such circumstances the visa officer may occasionally draw upon some half baked, misconceived notion born out of his/her flawed knowledge on which a decision to refuse is to be based.

The OP's example is a perfect case in point.

It is quite obvious that the refusal is ill founded and, somewhat appropriately, clumsily expressed in a language which suggests the author is entirely ignorant of the matters on which he/she professes an authority. As the Scouser has already stated, divorces are not " credible", they are a conclusion of proceedings in a jurisdiction which are either recognised in law, or they are not. If the visa officer is arguing the divorce laws of Thailand are not recognised by the relevant UK authorities, and perforce the Be Bangkok visa section, then it should be stated in the refusal formula giving the legal basis on which such an assertion is to be made. The fact that it has not been expressed suggests that the visa officer hasn't a clue about either Thai or English matrimonial law but for reasons best known to himself thinks the divorce is not valid.

Thai law enables an Amphur to contract marriages and to dissolve them. This is recognised in the Uk provided the proceedings are in accordance with the laws of that country. Since there has been no evidence disclosed to believe the divorce was granted in a manner other than the orthodox then there is no valid reason for the visa officer to conclude the Thai registrar was acting beyond his powers. The fact that he has done so, presumably on the dotty notion that because one party is domiciled in a different country from the other, bespeaks either a gross incompetence or grotesque arrogance. Either way, it is quite alarming that such a stupid decision could have passed muster by the visa management but I suppose given recent anecdotes the current incumbents in Wireless Road are not necessarily the most intellectually blessed nor amenable to rational argument.

Still, the OP's chum can and should appeal but I suspect robust representations to UKVisas in London would remedy the situation before any hearing.

Like everything in life, nothing is forever and even the deranged dullards of the Be visa section will have to move on eventually.

[apetley]

Having looked at the ECO's instructions, it would appear that the visa officer is seeking to argue that a divorce at an amphur does not constitute proceedings. The guidance states:-

An overseas divorce obtained otherwise than by means of proceedings is recognised in the UK if:

1. it is valid in the country in which it was obtained;

2. at the relevant date, both parties were domiciled in that country or one was domiciled there and the other was domiciled in a country which recognised the divorce;

3. neither party had been habitually resident in the United Kingdom throughout the period of one year immediately preceding that date.

Applying these conditions to the OP's friend, he would fall down, arguably on point 2, and certainly on point 3.

However, the guidance also states:-

Under the Family Law Act 1986 an overseas divorce obtained by means of proceedings is only recognised in the UK if:

1. it is valid in the country in which it was obtained;

2. at the relevant date, either party was either habitually resident or domiciled in that country or was a national of that country.

Therefore, if an amphur divorce is considered to constitute proceedings, it is clear that the divorce in question would be acceptable in the UK as it is valid in Thailand and at the relevant date the then-wife was a Thai national.

In order to constitute proceedings, the procedure does not have to be judicial. As such, I would maintain that an amphur divorce amounts to proceedings and that the OP's friend's divorce is valid in UK law.

Additionally, I don't like the ECO's statement that the divorce is not "credible". How can a divorce be either credible or non-credible? I would have thought "valid" or "acceptable" would have been better phraseology.

Scouse.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Scouse, I would say that the thai divorce should certainly be recognised under British law as she went back to Thailand in October 2005 and was there for more than a year before it was granted in Nov 2006

[Mossfinn]

bespeaks either a gross incompetence or grotesque arrogance. Either way, it is quite alarming that such a stupid decision could have passed muster by the visa management but I suppose given recent anecdotes the current incumbents in Wireless Road are not necessarily the most intellectually blessed nor amenable to rational argument.

Still, the OP's chum can and should appeal but I suspect robust representations to UKVisas in London would remedy the situation before any hearing.

Gent, this post in its entirety is well composed and a pretty good response, if correct, in its advice, unfortunately it is way above my comprehension and understanding to gather whether your comments are correct.

I have quoted some part of it because it was one of your previous posts, along with others that was a catalyst in my third appeal, this time to UKvisa about a grossly incompetent and grotesque arrogance of an unjust decision.

When I got through to UKvisas they almost insisted that I appeal again to them, because as he read out the refusal before I actually received it, he was almost, within the constaints of his position, incredulous of the denial.

Of course this was supported by the actual letter of the law, gratefully provided by a respected authority on the subject who happens to be a sponsor of this forum, so that helped.

My point is, hopefully UKvisas will make an independent decision without blindly following the incompetence of the visa section of the BE.

I guess only time will tell.

Good Luck Apetley, appeal.

Moss

[topfield]

bespeaks either a gross incompetence or grotesque arrogance. Either way, it is quite alarming that such a stupid decision could have passed muster by the visa management but I suppose given recent anecdotes the current incumbents in Wireless Road are not necessarily the most intellectually blessed nor amenable to rational argument.

Still, the OP's chum can and should appeal but I suspect robust representations to UKVisas in London would remedy the situation before any hearing.

Gent, this post in its entirety is well composed and a pretty good response, if correct, in its advice, unfortunately it is way above my comprehension and understanding to gather whether your comments are correct.

I have quoted some part of it because it was one of your previous posts, along with others that was a catalyst in my third appeal, this time to UKvisa about a grossly incompetent and grotesque arrogance of an unjust decision.

When I got through to UKvisas they almost insisted that I appeal again to them, because as he read out the refusal before I actually received it, he was almost, within the constaints of his position, incredulous of the denial.

Of course this was supported by the actual letter of the law, gratefully provided by a respected authority on the subject who happens to be a sponsor of this forum, so that helped.

My point is, hopefully UKvisas will make an independent decision without blindly following the incompetence of the visa section of the BE.

I guess only time will tell.

Good Luck Apetley, appeal.

Moss

Sorry to inform Apetley but he will get nowhere with UK Visas as :

1. They work closely with Embasssies and rarely overule an ECM even in casewhere the ECM is clearly wrong in his/her decision. Only the Ajudicator is independant enough to do that ( on an appeal)

2. All such legal matters are being refered to IND who will state that visa matters come under the FCO and will not get involved

3. You will be extremely lucky to get through to anyone at UK Visas on the phone which can ring for hours ( on a premium rate 0870 number). Also the telephone staff are more a call centre with little knowledge themselves of visa matters.

[What a change from five years ago when one could get through to an official at the FCO in Whitehall whose tel no was in the phone book and he would take on a complaint and sort it out in a few hours ]

NB 1 Beware : Last appeal took over 14 months to be dealt with from start to finish

NB 2. For your info Above is neither hearsay nor speculation but based on recent experience with the the authorities concerned.

[the scouser]

I'm sorry to hear of your recent experiences with UK Visas, Topfield, but in my recent experience, I have had my written matters addressed within the allotted customer service timeframe, without having been erroneously referred to IND. These have generally been positive, too.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

3. You will be extremely lucky to get through to anyone at UK Visas on the phone which can ring for hours ( on a premium rate 0870 number). Also the telephone staff are more a call centre with little knowledge themselves of visa matters.

Where on earth in this information coming from.

I have spoken to UKvisas several times recently, got thru to staff not a call center and on others occasions left messages, that were always returned in a prompt manner.

Good Luck

Moss

[topfield]

3. You will be extremely lucky to get through to anyone at UK Visas on the phone which can ring for hours ( on a premium rate 0870 number). Also the telephone staff are more a call centre with little knowledge themselves of visa matters.

Where on earth in this information coming from.

I have spoken to UKvisas several times recently, got thru to staff not a call center and on others occasions left messages, that were always returned in a prompt manner.

Good Luck

Moss

Hi Moss,

Please be kind enough to inform us all of this magic public UK Visa telephone number which enables us all to contact UK Visas :

1. on an ordinary tel. no ...not a premium expensive 0870 no.

2. where one can get though easily and not have to hang on for up to an hour

3. where they will call you back in Thailand

4. where there are competant staff dealing with visa problems.

We will all like to know this number ( if indeed it exists )and await your reply posting with bated breath.

Many thanks for your kind co-operation

[GU22]

From Enquiries

Contact Us

By telephone:

09.30 - 13.30, Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays: 0845 010 5555

Please note that this number may not work from overseas. If you are calling from overseas, please contact your nearest British mission:

Topfield, why do you continue to post out of date, ill informed and just plain erroneus crap when time and time again more knowledgeable posters, especially Scouse, show you to be wrong?

[topfield]

From Enquiries

Contact Us

By telephone:

09.30 - 13.30, Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays: 0845 010 5555

Please note that this number may not work from overseas. If you are calling from overseas, please contact your nearest British mission:

Topfield, why do you continue to post out of date, ill informed and just plain erroneus crap when time and time again more knowledgeable posters, especially Scouse, show you to be wrong?

GU 22 , why do you continue to post out of date, ill informed and just plain erroneus crap when time and time again more knowledgeable posters, especially Scouse, show you to be wrong?

[/quote

[Mossfinn]

Edit Mossfinn

Edited January 7, 2007 by Mossfinn

[Mossfinn]

3. You will be extremely lucky to get through to anyone at UK Visas on the phone which can ring for hours ( on a premium rate 0870 number). Also the telephone staff are more a call centre with little knowledge themselves of visa matters.

Where on earth in this information coming from.

I have spoken to UKvisas several times recently, got thru to staff not a call center and on others occasions left messages, that were always returned in a prompt manner.

Good Luck

Moss

Hi Moss,

Please be kind enough to inform us all of this magic public UK Visa telephone number which enables us all to contact UK Visas :

1. on an ordinary tel. no ...not a premium expensive 0870 no.

2. where one can get though easily and not have to hang on for up to an hour

3. where they will call you back in Thailand

4. where there are competant staff dealing with visa problems.

We will all like to know this number ( if indeed it exists )and await your reply posting with bated breath.

Many thanks for your kind co-operation

Are you suggesting that I am lying Toppers? just to make you look stupid, because trust me you do not need me for that.

Good luck

Moss

[topfield]

Hi, I have a friend who's wife has just been refused a settlement visa to the UK and needs some advice as how to proceed.

As background he was previously married to a Thai.

She deserted him and did a runner back to Thailand in October 2005, before she had ILR in UK.

He met his girlfriend, now wife, in the UK in Dec 2005 when she was there on a UK Visitor Visa.

They have had daily contact since she went back to Thailand by telephone.

He finally divorced his ex wife in November 2006 and married his girlfriend in Thailand 10 days later.

Now the main reasons for refusal.

1. 'As your sponsors domicile is the UK, I do not consider a Thai divorce to be credible under UK law"

Then why did the the UK Embassy in BKK give him the Affirmation of Freedom to Marry document after showing the Thai Divorce papers?

2. 'I note your sponsors previous wife submitted an application to visit him in the UK in April 2006. I am therefore not satisfied that the length of your relationship is as you claim'

The reason her application was turned down was because he did not support it as the relationship was over!

If anyone can offer any advice on how he can proceed either through appeal or another application I will be glad to pass it on as they are both extremely upset at this seemingly unreasonable decision.

Thanks for reading.

FROM Topfield

Herewith pasted below is the the "contact information" as provided on the UK Visa website itself concerning complaints and specific inquiries. Please note that NO TELEPHONE NUMBERS WHATSOEVER are given. They do have a premiium no ( from Thailand ) beginning 0845/0870 for general inquiries but several calls to them in November resulted in waits of up to an hour and it was clear the staff are call centre staff not experienced in the intricacies of dealing with the Embassy in Bangkok.

Complaints (11/05/04)

If you wish to comment on or complain about the level of service you have received at a visa section overseas, you should contact UKvisas.

We aim to respond to your complaint within 20 working days, in accordance with the Government service delivery standards. To help us achieve this please provide as much information as you can, including where possible:

• the visa section where the application was made

• the full name of the applicant

• the applicant's date of birth

• the type of application

• the date of application

• any reference number(s)

Please write to:

UKvisas

Foreign and Commonwealth Office

King Charles Street

LONDON

SW1A 2AH

United Kingdom

Specific Applications (11/05/04)

Please contact the Entry Clearance Manager at the visa section in the country where you applied if:

• you want to enquire about a specific application that has already been made at that visa section.

• you are unhappy with a decision that has been made on a specific application at that visa section.

You can find their contact details on the UK Overseas Missions page.

If you are unhappy about the service you have received at an overseas visas section, please see our Complaints page.

[atlastaname]

I have to thank you guys for providing some entertainment for me so early on a Monday morning (UK time). There seems to be a couple of threads going at the moment that consist of Toppers V the rest. I am surprised that they haven't been closed or tidied up as they appear to be going no-where.

Great fun though , and glad i have kept out of them

[peter48]

Far be it for me to widen the debate - but I think you have to be careful to marry another Thai lady. In this example here the first did a runner most want a life of luxury and money, money, and more money. That's not to say they are greedy; they do not understand the UK way of life - taxes, more taxes, expenses, mortgages, costs, debt etc., They think money is a bottom less pit - usually goes first can you buy her Gold ( in Pattaya) send her money (to Pattaya) , get Visa come UK, send money to mama, can you buy house in Thailand, can we move back!

They do not like UK culture, weather, bourgeosie suburban isolation etc.,

They do not think in terms of their UK life style compared to poor folk in Thailand ; its always compared to rich folk , what they want, bigger cars, direct flights, fashion, good homes etc., Materialism. Remember why are they comming to live in this country. Love and Romance does not pay for all the things...

If I ever as an educated metropolitan I struck up with another Thai ( which I doubt as the idea of marrying a country peasant from the other side of the world is always going to be culturally problematic) - I would cohabit - you got more power that way!! Also study their character over the years before you make that wedding commitment if she is loud, aggressive & rude at times avoid it mate.

All the best in your quest.

[topfield]

Far be it for me to widen the debate - but I think you have to be careful to marry another Thai lady. In this example here the first did a runner most want a life of luxury and money, money, and more money. That's not to say they are greedy; they do not understand the UK way of life - taxes, more taxes, expenses, mortgages, costs, debt etc., They think money is a bottom less pit - usually goes first can you buy her Gold ( in Pattaya) send her money (to Pattaya) , get Visa come UK, send money to mama, can you buy house in Thailand, can we move back!

They do not like UK culture, weather, bourgeosie suburban isolation etc.,

They do not think in terms of their UK life style compared to poor folk in Thailand ; its always compared to rich folk , what they want, bigger cars, direct flights, fashion, good homes etc., Materialism. Remember why are they comming to live in this country. Love and Romance does not pay for all the things...

If I ever as an educated metropolitan I struck up with another Thai ( which I doubt as the idea of marrying a country peasant from the other side of the world is always going to be culturally problematic) - I would cohabit - you got more power that way!! Also study their character over the years before you make that wedding commitment if she is loud, aggressive & rude at times avoid it mate.

All the best in your quest.

Brilliant exposition ! Your posting should be printed and distributed at airports on arrival to all single men.... and am being quite sincere.

[Mossfinn]

Great fun though , and glad i have kept out of them

????????

[atlastaname]

Great fun though , and glad i have kept out of them

????????

???????? ...any chance of that in English??

[Mossfinn]

Great fun though , and glad i have kept out of them

????????

???????? ...any chance of that in English??

Nope.

I am having too many posts zapped as it is.

Good Luck

Moss

[paully]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Scouse, I would say that the thai divorce should certainly be recognised under British law as she went back to Thailand in October 2005 and was there for more than a year before it was granted in Nov 2006

This puts it in a very different light, IMHO. The ECO may have assumed that your first wife was still in England when you divorced in Thailand and that, therefore, the Thai divorce was not 'valid' or 'credible' because, for example, under UK law financial provision on divorce has to be dealt with before the Decree Absolute is issued. Did you emphasise this to the ECO in your application? I would recommend that you do so to the visa centre or the ECO and get them to look at the matter again.

[apetley]

As an update to this thread I can tell you that just 30 minutes ago my friends wife received a phone call from the British Embassy in Bangkok telling her that she can pick up her Settlement visa tomorrow. Even got an apology, brief but an apology all the same, for the first refusal. No reason but maybe that will become clearer when she picks up her visa.

I would also like to thank The Scouser and his company Davies Khan who has given invaluable help and advice. He really is a top bloke.

[giruz]

I would also like to thank The Scouser and his company Davies Khan who has given invaluable help and advice. He really is a top bloke.

I guess that now...I don't have any more reasons to hold my payment to Davies Khan.

g.

[the scouser]

That's excellent news. I last spoke to your pal on Monday when we were still plugging away with UK Visas, so wasn't aware that the visa has been authorised.

All the best,

Scouse.

[atlastaname]

Shame you can't sue them .... but you can't.

[Mossfinn]

As an update to this thread I can tell you that just 30 minutes ago my friends wife received a phone call from the British Embassy in Bangkok telling her that she can pick up her Settlement visa tomorrow. Even got an apology, brief but an apology all the same, for the first refusal. No reason but maybe that will become clearer when she picks up her visa.

I would also like to thank The Scouser and his company Davies Khan who has given invaluable help and advice. He really is a top bloke.

Top Banana Apetley,

Good Luck for the future

Moss