Refinishing Hardwood Floors

[Silurian]

We decided to refinish the hardwood flooring in our townhouse. The 10 year old finish was starting to peel and had plenty of scratches. We were told that Beger was the best brand to use for coating the floor. After looking at samples of glossy and dull finishes, we decided that dull looked really nice. The old flooring had a glossy finish. After talking with the workers at the store, they pointed us to a Beger B52 poly product (B-5000). They stated that we could use the glossy for the first two coats and then use the dull on the last coat. I was a little skeptical but I figured they knew what they were talking about.

We hired a painter to paint the walls and refinish the floor. The painter stated that he knew how to finish the floor. He didn't have a sanding machine to strip the floor. We insisted that he hire someone to sand down the floor by machine. He was planning on doing it by hand. After the floor were sanded down, it looked really nice. I was very excited by the prospect of new looking hardwood floors.

We then bought the Beger glossy poly finish and the painter then applied the first two coats. We casually inspected the floor and it seemed to be looking good. We then bought the final dull poly finish. The painter stated that he never worked with the dull but that shouldn’t be a problem. After he finished with the third coat, the floor looked terrible. There were brush streaks everywhere. He missed filling a number of cracks between the wood which for some reason were more obvious with the dull coating. Also, there were several areas where he must not have used enough of the dull poly finish since I could see the glossy finish. When we showed the flaws to the painter, he stated that he can fill the cracks, lightly sand this third coat and then put down a fourth dull coat. We agreed. After the fourth coat, the floor still looks terrible. There are still plenty of brush marks/streaks, and the filler that he used was too light so it makes the cracks look white. It is also very hard to clean and make it look clean. The floor seems very easy to scratch/mark up. I thought a poly finish is supposed to be the strongest.

After looking at the finishing product, we saw a sticker that we missed earlier. It stated to use a different thinner, M59 instead of M50, and to use it at a different ratio 1:1 instead of the 4:1 (poly to thinner) that the instructions stated on the side of the can. We called up Beger and they stated that the M59 makes the poly dry slower and that the ratio wasn’t that important. Beger stated that the painter probably wasn’t skilled enough and that most people blame the product.

So now we are stuck with what to do next. I figure I have the following options.

1) Going back to the glossy finish since that seemed to look better but that might require putting down three coats.

2) Putting one more coat of the dull using the right thinner and ratio.

3) Use a different product on top of what we currently have.

4) Removing all of the poly finish by machine sanding the floor and starting over. We had another flooring contractor come in and they stated that this is what they would do to fix it. I really don’t like this option since I already paid for this once and I am tired of cleaning the dust up from the sanding machine.

5) Live with it the way it is.

I think we messed up on a few key areas.

1) Maybe the dull look is nice on the sample, but on a whole floor it just doesn’t work.

2) The painter’s skill wasn’t up to the job.

3) Not using the proper thinner and ratio

4) Putting down two coats of glossy and a final dull coat.

5) Not using the right product? I’m not sure if Beger is the best to use or if poly finishes are the best for wood floors.

So does anyone have any experience with finishing hardwood floors to give me some advice on what to do next?

[lingling]

2) The painter’s skill wasn’t up to the job.

I think this is the only thing you did wrong. Had he known what he was doing there wouldn't be any messups with thinner, brush streaks etc.

Ask the next one to take you to a previous work site and show a floor they have done. If they can't, don't hire them. There's a 90-1 ratio of incompent vs competent handymen here.

4) Removing all of the poly finish by machine sanding the floor and starting over. We had another flooring contractor come in and they stated that this is what they would do to fix it. I really don’t like this option since I already paid for this once and I am tired of cleaning the dust up from the sanding machine.

And this is the only sensible option. If the first clueless guy hasn't primed the wood properly the thing may start flaking off in a year. Better to have a competent person redo the whole thing from scratch. And make it clear to them that any cleanup etc is part of their job.

[oxymoron]

2) The painter’s skill wasn’t up to the job.

I think this is the only thing you did wrong. Had he known what he was doing there wouldn't be any messups with thinner, brush streaks etc.

Ask the next one to take you to a previous work site and show a floor they have done. If they can't, don't hire them. There's a 90-1 ratio of incompent vs competent handymen here.

4) Removing all of the poly finish by machine sanding the floor and starting over. We had another flooring contractor come in and they stated that this is what they would do to fix it. I really don’t like this option since I already paid for this once and I am tired of cleaning the dust up from the sanding machine.

And this is the only sensible option. If the first clueless guy hasn't primed the wood properly the thing may start flaking off in a year. Better to have a competent person redo the whole thing from scratch. And make it clear to them that any cleanup etc is part of their job.

I agree with lingling

If you want a really first class job you have little choice, but to start over again. All floor finish quality is in the preparation ie sanding and filling. This area you need to check carefully yourself. Your choice of "matt" finish (what you call dull) is the best as it will reduce the wavy reflections that you see from most Thai polished floors. Make sure your contractor uses a 20 inch belt floor sander, rather than a rotary one, to reduce this effect.

Also no real tradesman (farang) would apply any poly urethene floor finish with a brush!!!!!!

If you want a good job you use a lambswool pad, or a roller. At least 270mm wide

BTW I have used Berger 5000 in Oz with outstanding results

[chownah]

I too agree with Lingling. If you live upcountry it might be very hard to find a good floor finisher. It might be hard to check their ability to do matt finish since not many people get this done on their floors which is probably why your first man had never done it before. If I were in your situation I might try doing my best to find a better finisher and then hiring a small portion done first to see if you like the outcome.

Chownah

[backflip]

I agree that you have to start with a stripped floor. "Dull" and "glossy" finishes are inherently different and, as you have discovered, mixing them on the same surface will lead to disaster. Too, water-solvent and petroleum-solvent based poly finishes are different, and are meant for different uses. A water-based poly finish will dry quicker, and lighter. But, the surface is substantially softer than a petroleum-based poly surface. A petroleum-based poly surface dries more slowly, has a tendency to yellow, but dries to a very hard surface.

[chownah]

I agree that you have to start with a stripped floor. "Dull" and "glossy" finishes are inherently different and, as you have discovered, mixing them on the same surface will lead to disaster. Too, water-solvent and petroleum-solvent based poly finishes are different, and are meant for different uses. A water-based poly finish will dry quicker, and lighter. But, the surface is substantially softer than a petroleum-based poly surface. A petroleum-based poly surface dries more slowly, has a tendency to yellow, but dries to a very hard surface.

What is a "water-based poly finish"? Got a link that talks about it?

Nevermind...I just googled it and found lots of stuff...sorry for the disturbance.

Chownah

Edited January 25, 2007 by chownah

[The Skipper]

Easy to see the flaws in an empty room. Always looks better with some furniture and carpets.

If it was me, I'd hire a contractor after viewing some samples of his workmanship.

[wpcoe]

Easy to see the flaws in an empty room. Always looks better with some furniture and carpets.

That is so true not only for floors, but for walls. In an empty room every little speck, bump and crack stands out on the floor and walls. Furnish the room, lay down a couple rugs, hang a few pictures and the flaws are much less noticeable, if at all.

Admittedly, in more severe blemish cases, the blemish may dictate the placement of the rug or picture, though.

[taxexile]

had similar problems with our floor and a contractor who didnt read the instructions properly. we wanted a matt finish but it came out a mess.

he and his army of helpers (including his wife and sister in laws recruited for the day and yours truly) hand sanded the whole lot back , it took 6 of us a day to do 120 square meters , with two grades of sandpaper ,and then he re applied the correctly mixed lacquer. the final cleaning of the floor before applying the lacquer will need to be done with the windows and doors shut to stop any dust flying around , same when the lacquer is put on.

the fumes are unbelievable and whoever does it risks lung disease and brain damage

its not a 100% perfect finish , but as skipper and wpcoe say , once the furniture is in the small blemishes are just not noticed.

[chownah]

Lacquer?

[taxexile]

the polyurethane coat , i call it lacquer.

[Moonfruit]

Why does everyone want Poly coating nowadays?

Whats wrong with the old bees-wax polishing. A perfect matt finish achieved with a minimum of skill required. The art is being lost as everybody starts to go with poly, but if you look hard enough you can still find it. It was always used in old Thai houses, and it served well for many many years.

The problem with Poly is it scratches up, no matter how well applied. Its a plastic coating on top of the wood. You lose the 'feel' of the wood as you dont come in contact with it. You cant smell it.

Anybody know what i mean?

[Silurian]

Thanks everyone for your reply. So far we are waiting to determine the next step. I understand the the correct thing to do is sand it all off and start over, but 7 months into remodeling this townhouse and what feels like tons of money, I just don't want to spend much more of either (time and money). I will probably go the same route as taxexile and give it a go with the correct ratio. Another thing that stops me from doing all over again is that I went to another person's house who make furniture and he did his own floors in a matt/dull finish. While his floors looked better than mine, they were not near as nice as I thought they would be from a wood professional. He was really proud of his hardwood floors so I guess I am using that as a benchmark. When talking with Beger, they also gave some tips and made it sound like we didn't have to start over again.

The main reason I went with a Poly coating is that what everyone seemed to be recommending. I am unhappy with the way the Poly gets scratched or marred but I am thinking about putting down area rugs in some spots to help with that problem. I used to have laminate flooring in my other houses but there are pluses and minuses there too. The big minus is water. If water gets in the crack between the planks, it can really damage the floor. Otherwise, laminate flooring seems to hold up better than hardwood floor and is easy to clean.

[chownah]

Why does everyone want Poly coating nowadays?

Whats wrong with the old bees-wax polishing. A perfect matt finish achieved with a minimum of skill required. The art is being lost as everybody starts to go with poly, but if you look hard enough you can still find it. It was always used in old Thai houses, and it served well for many many years.

The problem with Poly is it scratches up, no matter how well applied. Its a plastic coating on top of the wood. You lose the 'feel' of the wood as you dont come in contact with it. You cant smell it.

Anybody know what i mean?

Interesting idea. I can google for this but I"m wondering if you've got a handy link already. It might be that the urethane is used to protect the wood from wearing away....the urethane does scratch but if it wasn't there then the wood would get the scratching and since wood is much softer than urethane the scratches would be deeper and easier to make and perhaps the wood would wear away too much in certain places...the urethane gets warn away instead of the wood and it can be replaced much more easily than replacing the wood. I don't know if this is right...what do you think?

Chownah

[Moonfruit]

Why does everyone want Poly coating nowadays?

Whats wrong with the old bees-wax polishing. A perfect matt finish achieved with a minimum of skill required. The art is being lost as everybody starts to go with poly, but if you look hard enough you can still find it. It was always used in old Thai houses, and it served well for many many years.

The problem with Poly is it scratches up, no matter how well applied. Its a plastic coating on top of the wood. You lose the 'feel' of the wood as you dont come in contact with it. You cant smell it.

Anybody know what i mean?

Interesting idea. I can google for this but I"m wondering if you've got a handy link already. It might be that the urethane is used to protect the wood from wearing away....the urethane does scratch but if it wasn't there then the wood would get the scratching and since wood is much softer than urethane the scratches would be deeper and easier to make and perhaps the wood would wear away too much in certain places...the urethane gets warn away instead of the wood and it can be replaced much more easily than replacing the wood. I don't know if this is right...what do you think?

Chownah

I think you are exactly right Chownah, but Urethane is only a relatively new phenonemon. (Im afraid i dont have a link to hand.)

The bees wax polish has been used in Thailand for centuries, and i guess back home too. Nowadays though it is almost imporssible to find, though it is still used in many places upcountry. For example, the last lot i got was through a relative of a friend who is a school janitor, and they us it on the floors there.

I think my point of view is that a good, solid wood floor will outlast all of us. Certainly a lot longer than any urethane finish. The wood may scratch up a little, but as it is the wood, and not the plastic coating it doesnt show up. Years of foot wear across smoothes it away better than any polish in the end!

[lingling]

I think you are exactly right Chownah, but Urethane is only a relatively new phenonemon. (Im afraid i dont have a link to hand.)

The bees wax polish has been used in Thailand for centuries, and i guess back home too. Nowadays though it is almost imporssible to find, though it is still used in many places upcountry. For example, the last lot i got was through a relative of a friend who is a school janitor, and they us it on the floors there.

I think my point of view is that a good, solid wood floor will outlast all of us. Certainly a lot longer than any urethane finish. The wood may scratch up a little, but as it is the wood, and not the plastic coating it doesnt show up. Years of foot wear across smoothes it away better than any polish in the end!

I'm going a bit off-topic, but I made an experiment almost a year ago. Got a sheet of 10mm plywood and cut it in three pieces. Left one untreated, one treated with polyurethane and one with wood stain. Hung all three pieces on a fence to give them some weather exposure. The one treated with poly started looking ugly after a couple of weeks and is now not much better than the untreated one. The one treated with wood stain is still ok looking. Conclusion: using polyurethane on wood outdoors is a bad idea. A bit of sunshine and it starts flaking off.

Now, the funny thing is - I have been looking at some "ready made" thai style wood houses. Many of them use poly... I wonder how often they re-paint the showcase houses.

[Somtham]

I'm going a bit off-topic, but I made an experiment almost a year ago. Got a sheet of 10mm plywood and cut it in three pieces. Left one untreated, one treated with polyurethane and one with wood stain. Hung all three pieces on a fence to give them some weather exposure. The one treated with poly started looking ugly after a couple of weeks and is now not much better than the untreated one. The one treated with wood stain is still ok looking. Conclusion: using polyurethane on wood outdoors is a bad idea. A bit of sunshine and it starts flaking off.

Now, the funny thing is - I have been looking at some "ready made" thai style wood houses. Many of them use poly... I wonder how often they re-paint the showcase houses.

Lingling - was the poly you used for your test 'Interior' or 'Exterior' grade? How about the stain?

rgds

[lingling]

Lingling - was the poly you used for your test 'Interior' or 'Exterior' grade? How about the stain?

Both were for exterior use. Next experiment will be to try different brands of wood stain to determine which one is best.

[Silurian]

Just to give everyone an update, we decided to do one more layer of poly with the correct ratio and thinner. It looks better than before but not perfect. At this point, we are going to leave it as is. I believe that going with dull/matt was the biggest mistake in this process. The floor looks really good when you look straight down at it, but at an angle where the light reflects off the surface is where you see brush strokes and a hazy look. The product itself leaves this hazy look and it would occur no matter how good the painter is. I would not recommend putting down a dull/matt poly finish on a hardwood floor. If we ever decide to redo the floor, I will most likely not be using the Beger B-2000 product and most definitely putting down a glossy finish. Also, the dull/matt really shows off dust and foot prints.

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions. I have learned some valuable lessons from this project.

[Somtham]

Lingling - was the poly you used for your test 'Interior' or 'Exterior' grade? How about the stain?

Both were for exterior use. Next experiment will be to try different brands of wood stain to determine which one is best.

Lingling - any results from your tests? I'm getting readyto do some exterior wood and am interested in what you may have found out.

Last year I used an exterior clear satin Woodtech finish on a pump house and the south facing wall looks terrible with much of the finish gone. At ~B1200 per gallon the result was disappointing. I also just did a yard cart with Berger lacquer and so far so good but it's only been about 3 months.

rgds