Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Family of man shot in Thailand say he was robbed

"There are both personal belongings and cash that Leo Del Pinto was carrying at the time of his death that did not return to Canada with his belongings or remains," Fortune said.

Among the items missing are a watch given to Del Pinto.

"He never took it off," Fortune said, but he said it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

Full Story:

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/0...775646-sun.html

[george]

Update:

PAI BACKPACKER KILLING

Autopsy shows both shots would have been fatal

An autopsy carried out in Canada on the body of John 'Leo' Del Pinto, who was gunned down by a policeman in Pai earlier this month has revealed both shots would have been fatal.

The Medical Examiner's office in Calgary, Alberta, has completed a report which says he was killed instantly by the bullet to his head.

But the second shot pierced both his liver and kidney and would also have been fatal.

Ross Fortune, a spokesman for the Del Pinto family said last night personal belongings that which 'Leo' was carrying at the time of death had not been returned.

"This was heartbreaking news for a family, who are already struggling to cope with the loss of their only son."

Meanwhile the full autopsy report is expected to be ready in three days.

A memorial service will be held in Calgary today.

Meanwhile, Canadian Secretary of State, Helena Guergis, has written to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressing Canada 's concern and calling for a transparent investigation into the shootings of Del Pinto and his companion Carly Reisig, 24, from Chilliwack, British Columbia.

by Andrew Drummond

Special to The Nation 2008-01-16

[Khun ?]

I despies the police corruption that Thailand is very well known for and this being said.

Reisig looks to be the cause of the situation. I don't know if she was thinking she is a women and could

get away with being involved in several drunken loud mouth punch ups. This one seems it has finally caused

a serious side effect to her disposition that seems to have continued until it has now turned fatal.

Thais in general do not give the same leway to a girl on physical altercations.

What a tragedy that all should take notice of. I am sure Leo would of distance himself from such behaviour

if he only knew she had earned the reputation of being a confrontational and loud drunkard.

What a shame!

[permanent_disorder]

Family of man shot in Thailand say he was robbed

"There are both personal belongings and cash that Leo Del Pinto was carrying at the time of his death that did not return to Canada with his belongings or remains," Fortune said.

Among the items missing are a watch given to Del Pinto.

"He never took it off," Fortune said, but he said it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

Full Story:

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/0...775646-sun.html

before someone jump one the story and tells us in thailand victims get always robbed - let's have a look at the "He never took it off" watch! can you see the watch?

pictures above can be viewed by everyone in the facebook profil of mr. del pinto. they are for public viewing

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=564505599

Ross Fortune is in his list of friends

[Danielle]

The article says that it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

While I'm not advocating that people jump to conclusions about the risks of robbery in Thailand either, I have to ask, did it not even cross your mind that maybe those pictures were taken before he was given the watch?

[Danielle]

Thank you to everyone who has expressed condolences or apologetic sentiments regarding the post I made earlier.

BarryMan: I'm not going to jump to conclusions about Thailand entirely based on what people say in this thread. While this thread is informative about people's attitudes, I realize that anyone can form their opinions based on any number of unknown factors. That goes both ways.

Canuckamuck: I understand that often people discuss and debate with a certain detachment from the human factors of the subject. I hope nobody censors themselves for my sake. When I made my post I wasn't trying to get people to be quiet about their opinions. It's hard to explain. I wanted them to realize that maybe they should *rethink* some of those opinions, because they had become detached to the point of some of their judgments being formed without taking into account relevant human factors.

[thaigene2]

You, on the other hand, seem to be a chronic apologist for the actions of a drunken off-duty cop, with a history of firing his gun whilst drunk, and who pumped three shots into two unarmed toursits. Fight or no fight, insults or no insults, - so what?

Is your main message "dear backpackers and others, don't cancel your holiday plans for northern Thailand?"

Tourism will best be served by transparency and justice. And tourists themselves will be best served by having all the facts of the case, and understanding what risks an assault on police officers (I'm referring to the previous occasion, undisputed by anyone, including Reisig herself) might entail in Thai society, rightly or wrongly.

If I were to pull a message out from this, it would be 'be careful; avoid insulting and/or assaulting the police, and avoid fighting in public'. Such behaviour does not deserve bullets, but it's obvious that in Thailand the risk is there (more for Thais than for foreigners, in fact). To deny that potential risk, and to behave as if you're in a country where law enforcement personnel are well recruited and well trained, is irresponsible.

F-o-r-g-e-t R-e-i-s-e-g...for a minute - even though we shouldn't -- but because you are using her as a crutch (and shamefully IMHO)

What's your excuse for an off duty cop firing two shots into an unarmed rastafarian farang - did she assault THIS cop before?

More importantly, may I again ask whether you have any personal or business economic interest in foreigners traveling into or through northern Thailand?

[Andiamo]

Dear Danielle

Our sincere condolences to you and your family on your devastating loss. Please do maintain strong pressure on your Govt, Media to try and put pressure on the Thai Govt to carry out a transparent investigation and to use Canadian investigators.

Kirsty Jones, (a Welsh girl from a nearby town of mine in Wales) was murdered and her killer has still never been brought to justice . See her mother's interview - 5 years on. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/mid_/4580492.stm

Tragic.

I wish you and your family strength in the days, weeks and months ahead.

Permanent Disorder - Seriously, get a life. Your posts are becoming ridiculous - please think before you post innane comments and references. Thank you.

[thaigene2]

[Meanwhile, Canadian Secretary of State, Helena Guergis, has written to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressing Canada 's concern and calling for a transparent investigation into the shootings of Del Pinto and his companion Carly Reisig, 24, from Chilliwack, British Columbia.

You see? Squeeky wheel gets the grease. But it will end at this -- and there will be nothing (or very little more) mark my words.

Del Pinto family and your allies -- make MORE NOISE NOW - come to Thailand and hold a news conference at the FCCT! You'll fill the house - but ONLY of you do it soon. Or it will be too late - for sure. This will freak Canada out...as they will need to act - and as explained in previous posts they don;t want to act. It will freak out Thailand too - can you imagine them refusing you a visa? Whoaa nelly. It's really in your best interests..I'm sorry I know you don't want to think about this right now...but it really is the only avenue you have unless you're well connected in either country (which I humbly assume you are not). Justice will not happen any other way I'm afraid...look at the posts from those who've lived here for years - even in the hi-profile cases the cops seem to squirm out...UNLESS there is int'l pressure. And 74,330 viewings say it all for me - I've never seen that many on any one issue. You have more people looking at this than any other issue I have EVER seen here in Thailand - including the horendous murders by a thai cop of two british tourists not that long ago. The politics and the corrupt police are really in the spotlight right now as it is all part of the overall endemic nature of the patronage system that is falling apart here poltically right now - you have a captive audience - a spellbound audience - believe me you do. It takes guts to go into the spotlight..for sure. And it's up to you..

[thaigene2]

One other point about the Canadian Secreatry of State's comment - in Canada, a Sec of State is a "junior" minister - not the Foreign Minister - who if he spoke publcily about another nation's actions would carry real weight. In other words this is what - in diplomatic circles would be called a "measured" response - measured in that the victims are not 'important' enough on warrant a big hitter speaking out.

If you decide to come out to Thailand and speak out, bear in mind Friday will be a big poltical day with a lot of turmoil possibly over the weekend. You may want to aim for next tuesday or wednesday.

[keyman]

[Meanwhile, Canadian Secretary of State, Helena Guergis, has written to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressing Canada 's concern and calling for a transparent investigation into the shootings of Del Pinto and his companion Carly Reisig, 24, from Chilliwack, British Columbia.

You see? Squeeky wheel gets the grease. But it will end at this -- and there will be nothing (or very little more) mark my words.

Del Pinto family and your allies -- make MORE NOISE NOW - come to Thailand and hold a news conference at the FCCT! You'll fill the house - but ONLY of you do it soon. Or it will be too late - for sure. This will freak Canada out...as they will need to act - and as explained in previous posts they don;t want to act. It will freak out Thailand too - can you imagine them refusing you a visa? Whoaa nelly. It's really in your best interests..I'm sorry I know you don't want to think about this right now...but it really is the only avenue you have unless you're well connected in either country (which I humbly assume you are not). Justice will not happen any other way I'm afraid...look at the posts from those who've lived here for years - even in the hi-profile cases the cops seem to squirm out...UNLESS there is int'l pressure. And 74,330 viewings say it all for me - I've never seen that many on any one issue. You have more people looking at this than any other issue I have EVER seen here in Thailand - including the horendous murders by a thai cop of two british tourists not that long ago. The politics and the corrupt police are really in the spotlight right now as it is all part of the overall endemic nature of the patronage system that is falling apart here poltically right now - you have a captive audience - a spellbound audience - believe me you do. It takes guts to go into the spotlight..for sure. And it's up to you..

So the minister of Canada government wrote the letter to Thailand because you guys have written so many posts on this forum? Wow congratulations. Maybe you should tell the minister what he should next do. You keep telling "need to act" but do what? That newspaper say they sent another minister to talk to his family and explain what they are doing. I would like to know more. Does anyone have any idea for concrete suggestion?

[Johpa]

Tourism will best be served by transparency and justice.

Tourism in Pai will be served all right. My guess is that we will see a retreat over the recent pressure over drug testing in Pai that was an issue on a thread last year. My guess is that the police will simply back off for a few months, let the party in Pai continue. Toga...toga...toga...! And the beat goes on and all will soon be forgotten. And that is how tourism in Pai will be served. What you will not see is a mass migration of tourists out of Pai because the tourist bubble in Pai still has few conterparts where there is such a comfortable level of subsistence (and substances) and tolerance.

[thaigene2]

Quotation problem..sorry for this

I said:

Meanwhile, Del Pinto family and your allies -- make MORE NOISE NOW - come to Thailand and hold a news conference at the FCCT! You'll fill the house - but ONLY of you do it soon. Or it will be too late - for sure. This will freak Canada out...as they will need to act - and as explained in previous posts they don;t want to act. It will freak out Thailand too - can you imagine them refusing you a visa? Whoaa nelly. It's really in your best interests..I'm sorry I know you don't want to think about this right now...but it really is the only avenue you have unless you're well connected in either country (which I humbly assume you are not). Justice will not happen any other way I'm afraid...look at the posts from those who've lived here for years - even in the hi-profile cases the cops seem to squirm out...UNLESS there is int'l pressure.

Keyman said:

You keep telling "need to act" but do what? That newspaper say they sent another minister to talk to his family and explain what they are doing. I would like to know more. Does anyone have any idea for concrete suggestion?

I say..

which part of the above in bold don't you think is action?

[thaigene2]

By the way - to make the point on the level of interest in this thread..

ALL THREE of the top THAKSIN, Thaksin CORRUPTION and PPP WIN posts only slightly surpass WHEN COMBINED the number of viewings of the two canuck tourists shot by a cop story -- incredible, but telling.

[keyman]

Quotation problem..sorry for this

Keyman said:

You keep telling "need to act" but do what? That newspaper say they sent another minister to talk to his family and explain what they are doing. I would like to know more. Does anyone have any idea for concrete suggestion?

I say..

which part of the above in bold don't you think is action?

You say Canada government should act. You mean it should come and give a news conference too?

[kat]

If I were to pull a message out from this, it would be 'be careful; avoid insulting and/or assaulting the police, and avoid fighting in public'. Such behaviour does not deserve bullets, but it's obvious that in Thailand the risk is there (more for Thais than for foreigners, in fact). To deny that potential risk, and to behave as if you're in a country where law enforcement personnel are well recruited and well trained, is irresponsible.

The more the facts are aired and discussed - especially among the Thais themselves - the more chance there is that the system will gradually change for the better. When speaking about this case, I've overheard several Thais expressing their disgust for the alleged crime, and expressing shock that an off-duty police officer would be carrying a weapon at all.

I agree with your message above in bold. However, I do not put as much stock in the credibility of eye witness accounts as you do. The justice system in Thailand is run on accusation and affiliation, not on facts. There are an infinite number of cases with falsified evidence, lying affiliates, and executed witnesses. Have fun trying to find all of it in the archives of the Bangkok Post and The Nation, but long term expats know this to be as true as rain. It has also been documented in books by researchers that I provided links to on this thread a while back, such as Chris Baker and Pasuk Phongpaichit, and others to name just a couple.

It means absolutely nothing that there are a bunch of local eyewitnesses ready to give court testimony in favor of a local cop. And, it seems, we have learned so much about the histories, alleged behavior and characters of the two foreign backpackers in this case, but absolutely NOTHING from the local scene on the background details of the local cop who lives in that town. The silence is deafening.

But, it also speaks volumes, and tells me everything I need to know about the local framing of this case.

*edited nested quote function.

[permanent_disorder]

The article says that it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

While I'm not advocating that people jump to conclusions about the risks of robbery in Thailand either, I have to ask, did it not even cross your mind that maybe those pictures were taken before he was given the watch?

okay, there is a watch missing. not in the pictures but the one given him after those pictures was taken. but the words "he never took it off" implied that it is a long time habit, that the watch is a heirloom, grandpa gave him on Bar Mitzvah. and robbery is a very strong law term and accusation.

danielle, i feel sorry for your loss as well. the death of your friend is very tragic. nobody deserved to die that way.

also i will thank you for your considerate words and statement you don't want to judge in that case. and given the pain you must feel you would have the full right to speak in anger but you stay cool-headed.

and i believe your friend was a peaceful man without any aggression and in the moment when he was trying to grab the gun it was only to protect his friends. but that was a wrong move. but how to make in a split of a second the right decision. to err is human. and in my opinion the same have to hold for the police man, i don't think he is a 'killer', but swing the gun around was wrong also and he have to face justice.

and justice is not to simplify or paint black and white pictures. Justitia, Lady Jusitice is holding a scale in her hand to balance.

few other other expats here use the case for their usual rant and create a Us (foreigner) verus Them (Thai) situation. that helps nobody. journalists writing sensation-seeking headlines. declare that they act on behalf of Leo, but they just use Leos fate for their own interests.

we know from Leo that he had love thailand and the people here and specially in the North you meet really kindly and friendly people.

[kat]

The article says that it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

While I'm not advocating that people jump to conclusions about the risks of robbery in Thailand either, I have to ask, did it not even cross your mind that maybe those pictures were taken before he was given the watch?

and i believe your friend was a peaceful man without any aggression and in the moment when he was trying to grab the gun it was only to protect his friends. but that was a wrong move. but how to make in a split of a second the right decision. to err is human. and in my opinion the same have to hold for the police man, i don't think he is a 'killer', but swing the gun around was wrong also and he have to face justice.

and justice is not to simplify or paint black and white pictures. Justitia, Lady Jusitice is holding a scale in her hand to balance.

few other other expats here use the case for their usual rant and create a Us (foreigner) verus Them (Thai) situation. that helps nobody. journalists writing sensation-seeking headlines. declare that they act on behalf of Leo, but they just use Leos fate for their own interests.

we know from Leo that he had love thailand and the people here and specially in the North you meet really kindly and friendly people.

Right, and you are Mr. Sensation himself. Weren't you just a little while ago accusing the two of being drug users, punks, and Del Pinto of bad character because of his choice of music, beer drinking and tattoos? You should stick to screenplays that go straight to video for a street market stall.

*edit: those nested quote functions again.

[canuckamuck]

Canuckamuck: I understand that often people discuss and debate with a certain detachment from the human factors of the subject. I hope nobody censors themselves for my sake. When I made my post I wasn't trying to get people to be quiet about their opinions. It's hard to explain. I wanted them to realize that maybe they should *rethink* some of those opinions, because they had become detached to the point of some of their judgments being formed without taking into account relevant human factors.

I believe you have accomplished what you set out to do. Please feel welcome to contribute anything that might help us understand this tragedy from your family's perspective.

[permanent_disorder]

Barry Barry Barry.... what are we going to do with you hmm?! ... I also feel its pretty tactless of you to talk to Danielle like that when you haven been actively working against her interests.

Damian

are you in it for justice or just for revenge? do you know the difference?

Permanent Disorder - Seriously, get a life. Your posts are becoming ridiculous - please think before you post innane comments and references. Thank you.

you are partly right, but where have you been when others prejudge, agitate against the local people you can not be trusted because 'they all lie like isaan hookers' and 'little pathetic thai men' and deliver other hate speech and stereotypes?

and missing belongings is not robbery as the headline of the newspaper article called it. that is my point. there i could not resist to wrote a reply. dramatising it in the same way. you see the parallel?

[Girlaboutglobe]

Dear Mr. Obhrai,

I am a homeowner in Forest Lawn Calgary, and am one of your constituents. I am currently traveling in Thailand and am deeply concerned regarding the lack of pressure from the Canadian Government on Thai officials in response to the shooting death of Calgarian Leo Del Pinto by a Thai police officer.

Please understand that the only circumstances under which Canadians abroad can be guaranteed of justice and consequently safety in their dealings with foreign governments is if their own government draws a clear line in the sand as to their expectations for the treatment of their citizens and backs this up with action when that line is crossed. It is clear that the Canadian government's position in this case is to put up a front and smooth things over without actually putting any real pressure on the people involved. Statements released include the claim that the RCMP cannot get involved unless invited to do so, which obviously won't happen. Fine, it's apalling that more isn't being done to get vital information to Del Pinto's family, but I urge you as an MP for Calgary to stand up for us and oppose this incident blowing over. Taking a stand means more than writing a letter; it means daily phone calls to the Thai authorities, multiple letters of concern to the Tourism Authority of Thailand requesting information and suggesting travel advisories, keeping the incident in the public eye and making a lot of noise. Then perhaps the governments of these third world vacation spots will realize that threats against Canadian citizens are a problem actually worth trying to avoid.

We depend on our government when we travel, you are the only advocate that we have. Please use your influence to see that this responsibility is lived up to responsibly. I realize that Foreign Affairs is not your department, but as my Member of Parliament I turn to you to speak out for Leo and other Calgarians such as myself who travel and may at any time find ourselves in a similarly devastating situation, our families left with no one to turn to.

Thank you kindly for your attention to this matter.

I hope all Canadians on this site will follow suit, it only takes a moment. Email addresses for your MP (you can search via your postal code at http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilatio....aspx?Menu=HOC), or if you no longer have a Canadian address contact Canadian Foreign Affairs at:

Deputy Minister - Edwards, Leonard

Lester B. Pearson Building, Tower "A", 8th Floor

125 Sussex Drive

Ottawa, Ontario

K1A 0G2 Telephone: (613) 944-4911

Fax: (613) 944-0856

[DavidLeeRoth]

Here's a run down of some high profile murders of Canadians while on holiday in Mexico in the past 2 years...

The Ianiero's, a Canadian couple that was murdered in their hotel in Mexico (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/mexico-murders/) while attending a family wedding. This story grabbed headlines for a while, as two other Canadian women were briefly sought as suspects by Mexican authorities (they were not charged), and also because there were rumours that the crime was a potential mob hit (they were a wealthy Italian couple involved in businesses and real-estate). After a few weeks, the story disappeared. No one has been charged, and Mexican authorities have not been cooperative. Due to their status, the story is mentioned on the anniversary, but nothing more.

Adam DePrisco, a 19 year old Italian guy found dead by the side of a road (from the same city as the first couple).

(http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.h...f90&k=66186) Apparently beaten to death by a taxi driver and another man after dancing with someone's girlfriend at a nightclub. Mexican's say he was hit by a taxi. Family examines his body in Mexico and see's only head injuries, but when the body is returned to Canada, damage to his back is found, suggesting that things were done to it so it would match the hit-and-run story. Some of his possessions were also stolen. This story was talked about for a couple weeks, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that it happened close to the first murder. No one has been charged, and the story has been forgotten about. Family has basically given up and has moved on.

Jeff Toews, a 34 year old father is found badly injured outside a hotel, and eventually dies. (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...ame=&no_ads) His family says he was beaten to death, Mexican authorities say he fell from a balcony. Story was reported for a couple weeks, then nothing more.

The point here? I hate to be negative, but the chances of Canadian authorities getting involved in the Del Pinto murder, and justice being served are sllim to none. The first case I mentioned created a stir in Canada because of rumours surrounding the case, the victims status, and Canadian police being invited to help investigate. The President of Mexico and Canadian Prime Minister even talked about it!

The Pai shooting was "just a couple of hippy backpackers, with no jobs and of low social status", who were drunk, got in an arguement, and who go shot in a jungle half way across the world. If the Canadian government can't solve the Mexican murders taking place at crowded resorts when they have full disclosure of information and work closely with foreign ministers, what makes ANYONE realistically believe they can do anything in this case!?

Face it, the story has already been forgotten about here, and very few people knew about it to begin with. The Canadian pedophile arrested in Thailand a couple months ago was news for weeks, yet I only heard about this story on the news once! The messages I see on here calling for family press conferences in Thailand and such are a waste of time. Let the Thai's try to sort things out and hope they do the right thing. Nothing the Del Pinto or Reisig families do to pressure the Canadian government will work, as its not worth the trouble for them to get involved. There is no public outcry among Canadians back home for justice like there was in the case of the Ianiero's, and a handful of friends and family of the victims isn't going to make a difference.

Does anyone on here remember the case of the New Zealander, Steve Miller, who was murdered in Pattaya in April 2006? His girlfriend borrowed $70,000 from him, then had her Thai boyfriend (who he didn't know about, and who is still in hiding), shoot him in the middle of the street. She confessed, was charged with murder, the gun was found in her apartment, and a co-conspirator corroborated the story. It seemed like a cut and dry case. Then she revokes her confession, and says her boyfriend murdered Steve because he was beating her (untrue). Lots of pressure from Steve's family, including press conferences and visits to Thailand, yet the charges were still dropped! Suprisingly, when his family tried to get his money back, it had all disappeared (bribes? hmmmm...) Along with all of his possessions from the apartment, his car and motorbike! This was a straightforward case, with none of the murky details or negative media portrayals of the victims that this recent crimes suffers from, yet justice was not served. The moral of this story? Don't think you, as a friend or family member of a victim, can do a dam_n thing when it comes to a crime committed in Thailand!

[plachon]

The article says that it's not known specifically when the items went missing.

While I'm not advocating that people jump to conclusions about the risks of robbery in Thailand either, I have to ask, did it not even cross your mind that maybe those pictures were taken before he was given the watch?

and i believe your friend was a peaceful man without any aggression and in the moment when he was trying to grab the gun it was only to protect his friends. but that was a wrong move. but how to make in a split of a second the right decision. to err is human. and in my opinion the same have to hold for the police man, i don't think he is a 'killer', but swing the gun around was wrong also and he have to face justice.

and justice is not to simplify or paint black and white pictures. Justitia, Lady Jusitice is holding a scale in her hand to balance.

few other other expats here use the case for their usual rant and create a Us (foreigner) verus Them (Thai) situation. that helps nobody. journalists writing sensation-seeking headlines. declare that they act on behalf of Leo, but they just use Leos fate for their own interests.

we know from Leo that he had love thailand and the people here and specially in the North you meet really kindly and friendly people.

Right, and you are Mr. Sensation himself. Weren't you just a little while ago accusing the two of being drug users, punks, and Del Pinto of bad character because of his choice of music, beer drinking and tattoos? You should stick to screenplays that go straight to video for a street market stall.

*edit: those nested quote functions again.

Mr Disorder, I would imagine, has more than a passing interest in this case Kat. It would not be beyond the realms of possibility that he "smooths the water" for a living and this is all part of a day's work. I may be wrong of course and he's really a Sendero Luminiso reactionary fresh from recruiting in the hills of Pai.

[A_Traveller]

Have to say that I think the 'smoothing the waters' expression is a good one, whilst the photo-shopped Ilyich Ramirez Sanchez image is a distraction from the text of the posts.

Regards

[DamianMavis]

are you in it for justice or just for revenge? do you know the difference?

Permanent Disorder - Seriously, get a life. Your posts are becoming ridiculous - please think before you post innane comments and references. Thank you.

you are partly right, but where have you been when others prejudge, agitate against the local people you can not be trusted because 'they all lie like isaan hookers' and 'little pathetic thai men' and deliver other hate speech and stereotypes?

and missing belongings is not robbery as the headline of the newspaper article called it. that is my point. there i could not resist to wrote a reply. dramatising it in the same way. you see the parallel?

I certainly hope you arent implying I SAID those things (one of them is close to what I said but all twisted around). Stop lying, quote people honestly if you want to make a point. To answer your question, justice, but I don't for one second dream of actually seeing it.

Damian

[Arkady]

Dear Mr. Obhrai,

I am a homeowner in Forest Lawn Calgary, and am one of your constituents. I am currently traveling in Thailand and am deeply concerned regarding the lack of pressure from the Canadian Government on Thai officials in response to the shooting death of Calgarian Leo Del Pinto by a Thai police officer.

Please understand that the only circumstances under which Canadians abroad can be guaranteed of justice and consequently safety in their dealings with foreign governments is if their own government draws a clear line in the sand as to their expectations for the treatment of their citizens and backs this up with action when that line is crossed. It is clear that the Canadian government's position in this case is to put up a front and smooth things over without actually putting any real pressure on the people involved. Statements released include the claim that the RCMP cannot get involved unless invited to do so, which obviously won't happen. Fine, it's apalling that more isn't being done to get vital information to Del Pinto's family, but I urge you as an MP for Calgary to stand up for us and oppose this incident blowing over. Taking a stand means more than writing a letter; it means daily phone calls to the Thai authorities, multiple letters of concern to the Tourism Authority of Thailand requesting information and suggesting travel advisories, keeping the incident in the public eye and making a lot of noise. Then perhaps the governments of these third world vacation spots will realize that threats against Canadian citizens are a problem actually worth trying to avoid.

We depend on our government when we travel, you are the only advocate that we have. Please use your influence to see that this responsibility is lived up to responsibly. I realize that Foreign Affairs is not your department, but as my Member of Parliament I turn to you to speak out for Leo and other Calgarians such as myself who travel and may at any time find ourselves in a similarly devastating situation, our families left with no one to turn to.

Thank you kindly for your attention to this matter.

I hope all Canadians on this site will follow suit, it only takes a moment. Email addresses for your MP (you can search via your postal code at http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Parlinfo/Compilatio....aspx?Menu=HOC), or if you no longer have a Canadian address contact Canadian Foreign Affairs at:

Deputy Minister - Edwards, Leonard

Lester B. Pearson Building, Tower "A", 8th Floor

125 Sussex Drive

Ottawa, Ontario

K1A 0G2 Telephone: (613) 944-4911

Fax: (613) 944-0856

Good post Girlaboutglobe. Re the involvement of foreign police. Obviously they do have to be invited to investigate in another country but this type of invitation is not impossible to obtain, if enough pressure is applied. The circumstances were rather different but British police did get involved in the investigation of the murder of Welsh tourist, Kirsty Jones, in Chiang Mai. Thailand's Department of Special Investigations (DSI) also got involved. This is a special unit within the Justice Ministry that is outside the chain of command of the police. It is common for Thai people to protest in order to demand the transfer of an investigation from local police to the DSI, if they don't trust local police to investigate fairly because they are likely to support a colleague or a local influential figure. The Thai authorities must have been put under a great degree of pressure by the British government to invite British police to investigate the Kirsty Jones case. A major difference was that the police investigation had failed to come up with credible suspects over a long period of time which must have made it harder for the Thai authorities to resist the pressure. In this case they would argue that they have already charged a suspect and don't need any outside help. It also has to be said that neither the involvement of the British police or the DSI could conclude the Kirsty Jones case, as the murderer has never been identified. The British police seemed to think that the culprit might have been a Chiang Mai policeman which pretty much put an end to any meaningful cooperation from the Thai police even with the DSI on board (if they really were). If you want to read up on the Kirsty Jones case, look back at Kat's recent posts. She has posted a number of links to this story and other similar cases.

I hope this is of some use to you in explaining some technicalities and referring you to historical information of relevance. I think you are on the right track. Realistically there is very little chance of a transparent and fair investigation, unless the Thai authorities are put under enormous pressure. This can only come from the Canadian government. Even though the odds are stacked heavily in one direction, the Canadian governement should still as hard as it can to improve the odds in favor of its citizens. That's what the taxpayers pay them to do. Best of luck.

[Arkady]

Here's a run down of some high profile murders of Canadians while on holiday in Mexico in the past 2 years...

The Ianiero's, a Canadian couple that was murdered in their hotel in Mexico (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/mexico-murders/) while attending a family wedding. This story grabbed headlines for a while, as two other Canadian women were briefly sought as suspects by Mexican authorities (they were not charged), and also because there were rumours that the crime was a potential mob hit (they were a wealthy Italian couple involved in businesses and real-estate). After a few weeks, the story disappeared. No one has been charged, and Mexican authorities have not been cooperative. Due to their status, the story is mentioned on the anniversary, but nothing more.

Adam DePrisco, a 19 year old Italian guy found dead by the side of a road (from the same city as the first couple).

(http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.h...f90&k=66186) Apparently beaten to death by a taxi driver and another man after dancing with someone's girlfriend at a nightclub. Mexican's say he was hit by a taxi. Family examines his body in Mexico and see's only head injuries, but when the body is returned to Canada, damage to his back is found, suggesting that things were done to it so it would match the hit-and-run story. Some of his possessions were also stolen. This story was talked about for a couple weeks, but a lot of that had to do with the fact that it happened close to the first murder. No one has been charged, and the story has been forgotten about. Family has basically given up and has moved on.

Jeff Toews, a 34 year old father is found badly injured outside a hotel, and eventually dies. (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...ame=&no_ads) His family says he was beaten to death, Mexican authorities say he fell from a balcony. Story was reported for a couple weeks, then nothing more.

The point here? I hate to be negative, but the chances of Canadian authorities getting involved in the Del Pinto murder, and justice being served are sllim to none. The first case I mentioned created a stir in Canada because of rumours surrounding the case, the victims status, and Canadian police being invited to help investigate. The President of Mexico and Canadian Prime Minister even talked about it!

The Pai shooting was "just a couple of hippy backpackers, with no jobs and of low social status", who were drunk, got in an arguement, and who go shot in a jungle half way across the world. If the Canadian government can't solve the Mexican murders taking place at crowded resorts when they have full disclosure of information and work closely with foreign ministers, what makes ANYONE realistically believe they can do anything in this case!?

Face it, the story has already been forgotten about here, and very few people knew about it to begin with. The Canadian pedophile arrested in Thailand a couple months ago was news for weeks, yet I only heard about this story on the news once! The messages I see on here calling for family press conferences in Thailand and such are a waste of time. Let the Thai's try to sort things out and hope they do the right thing. Nothing the Del Pinto or Reisig families do to pressure the Canadian government will work, as its not worth the trouble for them to get involved. There is no public outcry among Canadians back home for justice like there was in the case of the Ianiero's, and a handful of friends and family of the victims isn't going to make a difference.

Does anyone on here remember the case of the New Zealander, Steve Miller, who was murdered in Pattaya in April 2006? His girlfriend borrowed $70,000 from him, then had her Thai boyfriend (who he didn't know about, and who is still in hiding), shoot him in the middle of the street. She confessed, was charged with murder, the gun was found in her apartment, and a co-conspirator corroborated the story. It seemed like a cut and dry case. Then she revokes her confession, and says her boyfriend murdered Steve because he was beating her (untrue). Lots of pressure from Steve's family, including press conferences and visits to Thailand, yet the charges were still dropped! Suprisingly, when his family tried to get his money back, it had all disappeared (bribes? hmmmm...) Along with all of his possessions from the apartment, his car and motorbike! This was a straightforward case, with none of the murky details or negative media portrayals of the victims that this recent crimes suffers from, yet justice was not served. The moral of this story? Don't think you, as a friend or family member of a victim, can do a dam_n thing when it comes to a crime committed in Thailand!

Thanks for the information on Canadians murdered in Mexico and on the case of Steve Miller. All horrible cases. You take a highly realistic view which is not at variance with much of what I have been saying. But I would like to ask you this. Would you just roll over and do nothing, if your son or daughter was shot dead by a policeman in suspicious circumstances in Thailand or Mexico? I think the families should try their best to get their government working on their behalf asking questions and demanding answers. Even if it's a long shot, nobody else is going to going to pressure the Thai authorities to investigate properly.

[permanent_disorder]

....

Right, and you are Mr. Sensation himself. Weren't you just a little while ago accusing the two of being drug users, punks, and Del Pinto of bad character because of his choice of music, beer drinking and tattoos? You should stick to screenplays that go straight to video for a street market stall.

no, i didn't. i wrote that these are all speculations of the ' pathetic little armchair detectives WE are'. that WE includes me and a lot of arguments from the 'other side' . that 'sensation' was so ridiculous only a autistic monkey panda bear or a 'The Sun' reader would believe and didn't see the burlesque. okay, damian take it for serious.

i also wrote that those pictures proves nothing what happend that night.

i was in the false hope you would get the analogy.

in previous post i also express more then once my sorrow for the loss of life. but when i wrote that the police man is also a human being with his good sides and errors and not only a brainless killer the TV hate brigade jump on me.

there is some beating on sukumvit road years ago 'clear evidence' against the pai cop.

'screenplays that go straight to video for a street market stall' - trying to be funny, are you? i like it, having humour is fundamental.

but that you can tell a lot of other members here in many different topics. sad thing is a lot of people take this storytelling and fiction as fact, because is so fine simplified for simple minds.

and don't take my post you quote above to personally. my words have been more aimed on the statements of other members. i think you know about which ones i am talking.

i know you not agree with my criticism of the journalist work of andrew drummond, but honestly all the time when there is a shooting between a thai cop and a tourist call at night time the father of the kanchanaburi murder victim for a statement that you can quote in your article isn't that a little bit odd.

okay, an opinion about that depends also on what kind of newspaper we read usually.

but i don't want to tell this journalist how to write. thats his job, he do for a living. for certain publications you have write in a certain style. thats the media business. and thats what he do. actually it takes some chutzpah to do so. but don't call it well balanced or quality journalism.

[sabaijai]

You, on the other hand, seem to be a chronic apologist for the actions of a drunken off-duty cop, with a history of firing his gun whilst drunk, and who pumped three shots into two unarmed toursits. Fight or no fight, insults or no insults, - so what?

Is your main message "dear backpackers and others, don't cancel your holiday plans for northern Thailand?"

Tourism will best be served by transparency and justice. And tourists themselves will be best served by having all the facts of the case, and understanding what risks an assault on police officers (I'm referring to the previous occasion, undisputed by anyone, including Reisig herself) might entail in Thai society, rightly or wrongly.

If I were to pull a message out from this, it would be 'be careful; avoid insulting and/or assaulting the police, and avoid fighting in public'. Such behaviour does not deserve bullets, but it's obvious that in Thailand the risk is there (more for Thais than for foreigners, in fact). To deny that potential risk, and to behave as if you're in a country where law enforcement personnel are well recruited and well trained, is irresponsible.

F-o-r-g-e-t R-e-i-s-e-g...for a minute - even though we shouldn't -- but because you are using her as a crutch (and shamefully IMHO)

What's your excuse for an off duty cop firing two shots into an unarmed rastafarian farang - did she assault THIS cop before?

More importantly, may I again ask whether you have any personal or business economic interest in foreigners traveling into or through northern Thailand?

My personal business is irrelevant but I can say that I'm retired, but still dabble in freelance journalism. But even if one did have the interest you're intimating, to use it to try and discredit someone's observations is ad hominem argumentation. Talk about a crutch

Meanwhile try arguing the points for a change, and answering questions posed of you in return.

Given similar circumstances, the shooting could have happened anywhere in Thailand. In fact as several members have taken pains to point out, similar events have occured elsewhere in the country, albeit infrequently. There's no need to distort the facts to 'protect' Pai or anywhere else in Thailand, in my opinion.

[Chloe82]

What's your excuse for an off duty cop firing two shots into an unarmed rastafarian farang

If the farang is trying to take the gun from him then what do you expect the results to be?

The same would happen in any other country if someone tried to wrestle a gun from a policemans hand.

Chloe.