Uk Government Immigration Review.

the scouser · December 5, 2007

The UK governement has today unveiled it's new Australian-style points system for those wishing to migrate to the UK for work purposes. They have also announced a consultation process to discuss the merits of requiring spouses who wish to settle in the UK to be able to speak English before even travelling to the UK.

A separate consultation, also published today seeks views on the introduction of an English language test before entry for people applying for a spouse visa to help to encourage successful integration.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the government is consulting on this, the likelihood is it will come to pass. If so, expect some crony of the government to be given the contract to run recognised English language courses abroad, and also expect a marked downturn in the number of Thai spouse settlement visa applications.

Scouse.

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Britain tightens immigration requirements

LONDON: -- The British government Wednesday outlined details of a points-based system to "manage" immigration from outside the European Union (EU) under which unskilled workers would have little chance of entering Britain and spouses would have to pass an English language test.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the proposals, devised along the lines of the Australian immigration system, were aimed at providing a "robust machinery" to ensure that only those migrants "meeting the needs of the UK will be allowed to enter and work."

Applicants would earn points for their skills and the "potential" they show for economic success.

The government would also in future "block the privilege of citizenship" to applicants with a criminal record and offer greater protection for people being pressurized into forced marriages.

Under the proposals, expected to come into force next year, the minimum age at which people can come to Britain for marriage will be raised from 18 to 21.

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at attracting highly trained and skilled workers, according to Britain's economic needs, while low-skills "will only be used if specific shortages are identified that cannot be filled from the UK or European labour force."

Last year, about 12,000 unskilled migrants from non-EU countries in Africa, America and Asia came to work in Britain.

However, the opposition Conservative Party, and anti-migration pressure groups, have said the new system will have little real effect as the vast majority of migrants coming to Britain were arrivals from new east European members of the EU.

The Conservatives, who have demanded an Australian-style upper annual limit on immigration, also maintain that the new system would not work without putting a cap on numbers.

--DPA 2007-12-05

Full Home Office press release.

pointofview · December 5, 2007

The UK governement has today unveiled it's new Australian-style points system for those wishing to migrate to the UK for work purposes. They have also announced a consultation process to discuss the merits of requiring spouses who wish to settle in the UK to be able to speak English before even travelling to the UK.
A separate consultation, also published today seeks views on the introduction of an English language test before entry for people applying for a spouse visa to help to encourage successful integration.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the government is consulting on this, the likelihood is it will come to pass. If so, expect some crony of the government to be given the contract to run recognised English language courses abroad, and also expect a marked downturn in the number of Thai spouse settlement visa applications.

Full Home Office press release.

Scouse.

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

markr · December 5, 2007

Doubt very much this applies to people coming in from the european union though, thats the BIG issue we have right now!

Mark

legag · December 5, 2007

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

That's right and I think they have been carefully thought before announcing. It's reasonable. I wouldn't marry to someone I can't or able to have convo with.

the scouser · December 5, 2007

My initial instinct is that such a move would discriminate against those nationalities which are either not indigenous speakers of English or do not have a colonial background. For example English is far more engrained and widely spoken in Malaysia than it is Thailand, a consequence of which is that an average Joe Malaysian is far more likely to speak passable English than a Thai.

It should be a level playing field for all, yet it won't be because of various historical factors.

Scouse.

intumult · December 5, 2007

The idea of making applicants sit an english test has been talked about for a lot of years. Now it does look as if they will implement this in the not too distant future.

I feel it is a sensible requirement and as others have stated who would want to marry someone they canot have a conversaation with??

Too many Pakistanis and Africans? Seems also now there are many from the EU who cannot speak English also so I feel this is aimed at them too.

How can people expect to live and/or work in England if they cannot read / write / speak the language?

Expat2B · December 5, 2007

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?
When we lived in the Uk my thai wife went ballistic when we visited the local council offices, She has a good command of english yet could not read so many notices posted in Hindu Bengali and Urdu!

The Immigration problem in the UK is not caused by Thai wives . Too many pakistanis and africans.

Making things difficult for the Thai is a joke when arranged marriages from Pakistan are a dialy occurence.

Thank God we left that shit hole and now live here where the people still have working brains.

I think the proposed requirement for a spouse to be able to speak English is quite fair in most circumstances. If 2 people can't communicate with each other, the odds are not good that they would have a successful and enduring marriage. I wonder whether there is potential for challenge under Human Rights legislation though. I think I can see what the Government is getting at here. In fact it seems that this change is designed to addres the very problem you refer to above. Personally I couldn't seriously consider marrying someone who I could not have a proper conversation with. On the other hand Mrs E2B had the advantage of a more formal education in the English Language than I did, which can be really annoying as she corrects my grammar etc. whilst looking over my shoulder. I blame the UK education system

Using your argument re: the UK spouse being a fluent Thai speaker, surely draws direct comparison with a UK spouse being a fluent Hindi or Urdu speaker?

Like the Scouser, I see this being a major money spinner for English Language Schools in Thailand. Suddenly that business is looking more appealing

Edited December 5, 2007 by Expat2B

the scouser · December 5, 2007

Doubt very much this applies to people coming in from the european union though, thats the BIG issue we have right now!
Mark

You're right: such a proposal wouldn't apply to EEA nationals or their family members (irrespective of nationality), and that's possibly the root cause: the government realises that there's nowt they can do about the perceived influx from Eastern Europe, so they're seeking to lessen immigration from non-EEA states.

Scouse.

Ollie · December 5, 2007

Doubt very much this applies to people coming in from the european union though, thats the BIG issue we have right now!
Mark

As Scouse says, it doesn't and their migration here is but one of the big issues at the mo. I think the Govt. simply does not understand the concerns Joe Publlic has about (mainly illegal?) immigration at the moment, including from europe.

As for Thais coming here under the current rules, I agree it odd if they don't speak any English, but how many does that apply to? My wife gets around very well, works in a shop, socialises perfectly well with my (non-Thai) friends, reads, writes and speaks English - but to GCSE level 3? Not sure about that?

And what about the rights of a Brit to marry the lady of his choice and live here with her?

Contoversial I know, but I would now like to see restrictions on 2nd/3rd generation arranged marriages from the sub continent. Why is that still needed now? Apart from getting more people here from the migrants village/extended family, but thats a different story.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Ollie

pointofview · December 5, 2007

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?
When we lived in the Uk my thai wife went ballistic when we visited the local council offices, She has a good command of english yet could not read so many notices posted in Hindu Bengali and Urdu!

The Immigration problem in the UK is not caused by Thai wives . Too many pakistanis and africans.

Making things difficult for the Thai is a joke when arranged marriages from Pakistan are a dialy occurence.

Thank God we left that shit hole and now live here where the people still have working brains.

I agree - infact i had to go to an appeal tribunal in Leeds in 1995 to obtain a visa for my wife. The judge was discusted at the treatment my wife had received from the Britsh embassy in BKK. The lawyer representing the home office actually told me that the rules were inplace to slow down the indians and pakistanis, but they were not effective as once a perspective wife is knocked up then the child has automatic entry as a british citizen, and the Geneva Convention states that a mother should have same advantage as the child.

Edited December 5, 2007 by the scouser
pejorative term removed

pointofview · December 5, 2007

Doubt very much this applies to people coming in from the european union though, thats the BIG issue we have right now!
Mark

As Scouse says, it doesn't and their migration here is but one of the big issues at the mo. I think the Govt. simply does not understand the concerns Joe Publlic has about (mainly illegal?) immigration at the moment, including from europe.

As for Thais coming here under the current rules, I agree it odd if they don't speak any English, but how many does that apply to? My wife gets around very well, works in a shop, socialises perfectly well with my (non-Thai) friends, reads, writes and speaks English - but to GCSE level 3? Not sure about that?

And what about the rights of a Brit to marry the lady of his choice and live here with her?

Contoversial I know, but I would now like to see restrictions on 2nd/3rd generation arranged marriages from the sub continent. Why is that still needed now? Apart from getting more people here from the migrants village/extended family, but thats a different story.

I didnt realize it was to GCSE level 3 - surely that would mean the deportation of 50% of school leavers.

buffcoat · December 5, 2007

It appears that 40,000+ spouses a year would be caught by the new language requirement if it comes to pass, the bulk of them from India/Pakistan.

My gut feeling is that it will in some form but the Govt. will have to enact any legislation with an eye on the Human Rights Act (right to a family life).

The level of English required remains to be defined and it leaves an option open for interested groups to start lobbying NOW as this is a 'proposal'.

This will certainly have broad support from the UK public who will look at this as a reasonable measure.

Yes you can of course marry a Pole who speaks not a word of English and because of EU status they will have full rights of abode.Fair? Not to my mind but in the current circumstances that is just the way it is.

Guemlum · December 5, 2007

Jacqui Smith said:"I want people coming to live and work in the UK and their families to be able to integrate fully into our society. So as well as our existing and planned requirements for English language proficiency, attached to settlement, citizenship and for skilled workers, I am today publishing proposals for new requirements for spouses who plan to settle here to have some knowledge of English prior to arrival.

I have followed all of the links, but nowhere did it state what "Tier" a spouse falls under?

It seems that the tier system is for those wishing to enter the United Kingdom to work, study and train.

So should we apply for our settlement visa now or after christmas, and if we apply now, what is the likelyhood of it being processed (or even delayed untill after) before they close for christmas holidays. My wife can speak and understand English, but you never know what other obstacles the embassy will through at you.

Confused as to how this will effect us?

Guemlum

Ollie · December 5, 2007

I didnt realize it was to GCSE level 3 - surely that would mean the deportation of 50% of school leavers.

Sorry, I might have that wrong - its grade C in any case.

I'm sure in an earlier version of the BBC report, it stated this, but now it only mentions it in respect of highly skilled migrants? In fact, I can't see anything about partners now!!!

the scouser · December 5, 2007

I didnt realize it was to GCSE level 3 - surely that would mean the deportation of 50% of school leavers.

Too true, including Mr. Expat2B who uses a preposition to end a sentence with:-

Personally I couldn't seriously consider marrying someone who I could not have a proper conversation with...

Scouse.

the scouser · December 5, 2007

Confused as to how this will effect us?

The tier system is unrelated to the proposed introduction of pre-entry language tests for spouse settlement visa applicants. Jacqui Smith just took the opportunity of announcing the proposal at the same time that she unveiled how the new employment rules will work.

My opinion is that this is a done deal and, after a charade of consultation, the announcement will be made that spouse settlement visa applicants will have to demonstrate their English ability when making such a visa application. Probably April 2008.

Scouse.

Ollie · December 5, 2007

My opinion is that this is a done deal and, after a charade of consultation, the announcement will be made that spouse settlement visa applicants will have to demonstrate their English ability when making such a visa application. Probably April 2008.
Scouse.

Agree with the charade of consultation - happens where I work now.

Of course, being cynical, this will probably see a reduction in the number of applications, at least in the short term, which in turn means less ECO's, interpreter's and other related staff. Plus negotiate new, cheaper contracts with VFS worldwide and so on.

Expat2B · December 5, 2007

I didnt realize it was to GCSE level 3 - surely that would mean the deportation of 50% of school leavers.

Too true, including Mr. Expat2B who uses a preposition to end a sentence with:-

Personally I couldn't seriously consider marrying someone who I could not have a proper conversation with...

Scouse.

I did say that Mrs E2B frequently corrects me That said i should know better, I hope this thread has slipped down the page before Mrs E2B gets home from work Now I can't even do a little sneaky editing

Edited December 5, 2007 by Expat2B

the scouser · December 5, 2007

The more I ponder the issue, the more it is probable that this proposal is aimed at the countries from which there is "mass" spousal migration to the U.K., chiefly India and Pakistan. The number of, for example, Thai husbands/wives/civil partners/unmarried partners seeking to settle in the UK, when placed in the context of the overall figures, is a proverbial pee in the ocean. However, it's all or nothing, as the government can't apply the proposed rule to one nationality and not another.

Scouse.

madjbs · December 5, 2007

Imagine if British men had to learn Thai before moving to Thailand, there wouldnt be any here!

the gent · December 5, 2007

I didnt realize it was to GCSE level 3 - surely that would mean the deportation of 50% of school leavers.

Too true, including Mr. Expat2B who uses a preposition to end a sentence with:-

Personally I couldn't seriously consider marrying someone who I could not have a proper conversation with...

Scouse.

Pedantry is often at the expense of euphony or in other words, up with this I will not put !

Mahout Angrit · December 5, 2007

The more I ponder the issue, the more it is probable that this proposal is aimed at the countries from which there is "mass" spousal migration to the U.K., chiefly India and Pakistan.

Do I sense someone could be bracing themselves for a downturn in the Khan division for a while?

the scouser · December 5, 2007

Do I sense someone could be bracing themselves for a downturn in the Khan division for a while?

That's actually quite witty.

Scouse.

bigchang · December 5, 2007

this exactly same stupid law is in power in germany now and thai spouses,also other nationalities,but there is a few exceptions have to sit a test now and go two a 2-month or longer course in thailand before getting the visa

the results are more then 50% Fail,which is no surprise,different alphabet etc

there is a few exceptions i.e. university graduates dont need the test as they integrate easier???

bc

Mosha · December 5, 2007

In my home town of Dewsbury. Children are starting school unable to speak English at an acceptable level. You see young adults at hospitals with their elderly relatives having to translate. All this because despite years spent living in the country, they can't or won't try to learn the language of their adopted country. These people are all from the India sub continent.

plasticpig · December 5, 2007

Think it’s a case of

Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

bigchang · December 5, 2007

its most of western europe i think

the prob is that many dont want to integrate and build their own communities in there adopted homecountries,which made it easier and easier in the past to do so

bc

ClaytonSeymour · December 5, 2007

Think it's a case of
Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

Though I'd echo much of your sentiment, to be fair, neither Tony Blair or the current government is solely responsible for this. The "sub-continent" problem has been accumulating over the last five decades so, I'd blame every single government since then for failing to address this.

The Pakistani's & Bangladeshi's in particular have made no effort to integrate into British society & without having their hands forced why would they? Hence I stand by my comments that successive governments are to blame rather than the current one.

As for the East-European issue then YES, Tony Blair and the current government are to blame.

endure · December 5, 2007

Think it's a case of
Bolting the gate after the horse has gone.

Now thanks to Tony Blair, the uk is full of people who are not from the uk.

All the genuine people who wish to take there wives back to the uk

Now are getting a few more hoops to jump through.

Glad I left years ago.

The uk is a disgrace now.

Though I'd echo much of your sentiment, to be fair, neither Tony Blair or the current government is solely responsible for this. The "sub-continent" problem has been accumulating over the last five decades so, I'd blame every single government since then for failing to address this.

The 'sub-continent' problem has been accumulating since 1600 when we British decided that the sub-continent belonged to us. If you invade a continent and declare that it's British you can hardly complain when its inhabitants claim to be British too.

george · December 6, 2007