Chronic Muscle Pain

[thaigone]

Hello all,

I have had chronic muscle pain for more than forty years. I have had many test in the states and have been on Valium for the or so years. I am down to about mg of diazipam/day but without it I am a basket case with pain. I do not think that mg is enough to have withdrawals.

Sage advice needed. Are there any clinic that specialize in this sort of disorder. Any treatment that I can explore? I will be back in Chaing Rai in a week. I really do not want to go to Bankok but Chiang Mai is no problem.

Any ideas? I will entertain most suggestions. Just want to live a realitivly normal life and it would be nice to be med free (if possible). Thai massage helps lots but it is short term. hel_l, even if I somehow solve this problem I will still get my daily Thai massage.

Thanks you all

Michael

[Jing-jo]

Hello all,

I have had chronic muscle pain for more than forty years. I have had many test in the states and have been on Valium for the or so years. I am down to about mg of diazipam/day but without it I am a basket case with pain. I do not think that mg is enough to have withdrawals.

Sage advice needed. Are there any clinic that specialize in this sort of disorder. Any treatment that I can explore? I will be back in Chaing Rai in a week. I really do not want to go to Bankok but Chiang Mai is no problem.

Any ideas? I will entertain most suggestions. Just want to live a realitivly normal life and it would be nice to be med free (if possible). Thai massage helps lots but it is short term. hel_l, even if I somehow solve this problem I will still get my daily Thai massage.

Thanks you all

Michael

Hi if the massage works for a short time i suggest you go to a good chiropracter you may have the same as i had

a restricted stellate ganglion in my lower back

you say <deleted>?

what it basically means is that the muscles in your back are in permanent minor spasm and are compressing the nerve system or restricting the blood flow or nerve signals so your bodies self repair mechanism goes to pot either not repairing or going mad and doing repairs when none are needed and thus causing rheumatism and similar pains it can be very debillatating.

the muscles can also go into spasm becuase the waste is not removed properly and builds up causing the spasm threshold to lower dramically

for years i worked in all weathers mainly outside on either helicopters or cars usually in very exposed areas never had a problem till had very serious car accident i felt allright afterwards and never saw a doc at all ,endured many years of sleepless nights and loads of pain but kept working and even playing sport (hockey goalkeeper very fast movement occasionally but mainly loads of standing around so it was ok)

then had another crash twelve years later and got checked out found out I had a broken vertabrae in my neck at the front plus my back was in virtually permanent spasm I could hardly bend at all and driving was a real bitch

got recoommended to use a chiro in my area real good reviews of this guys by a few ex patients

went to him jesus you think a Thai manipulative massage is hard and scary when you are streched and manipulated to the bodies limits was nothing to this guy just about every joint in my body was stretched pulled pushed twisted turned cracked and readjusted then all done again

the next day i felt that I had been used as a football in a elephants footy game BUT the next day I slept well and could move about freely than ever b4 also the aches from all my muscles started to receed and doing the excersises he gave me over the next 4 months and another 11 visits I am back to full mobility a lot less pain and have a lot more energy than for years

still not totally pain free but getting there

there is a book called my back my pain by a dr paul shepard that is very good

i followed some of the advice there too and my life has improved immensley

or is it because i got a divorce and dont have to carry the wife's debts anymore?????????????

it's true but just kidding about the last bit even though she has ballooned to size 18 coincidencental or what

hope this helps

[ProThaiExpat]

It would help if you would give us the diagnosis that you have been given that makes the most sense to you. When you speak of muscle pain, is it localized or throughout your body, extremities, back, chest, etc.

I had generalized muscle pain throughout my body, similar to the muscle pain experienced with the flu, and it had a specific diagnosis, but the treatment was not.

There are some pain relievers available on the Thai market specifically targeting muscle pain, but wothout more information, we would be shooting in the dark in trying to provide helpful information.

[thaigone]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I worked most of my life in construction. I know that most people think surveyors just stand around looking through “that thing” but as a construction surveyor you do a lot of heavy lifting and pounding with a sledge hammer. Around heavy equipment you learn to run up slopes and contort your body.

MY BACK

I have been through a litany of tests from nerve conductivity to MRI. Conductivity is or was normal but my last MRI showed that L4 and L5 are almost bone on bone. Big time sciatic problem. Can’t stand for any duration of time. This started maybe 25 years ago. When it started it put me on the floor writhing in pain. Over the years it has changed from acute pain to numbness in my lower extremities. My sister had/has essentially the same thing with her back, had an operation, put a cage in but still is in great pain, perhaps more than I.

My muscle problem may be directly or partially due to my spine but my symptoms are total body muscle pain and discomfort. I am most aware of the muscles in my neck, shoulders, jaws and of course the area of my sciatic nerve (this is were Thai massage helps the most). Because of these symptoms I have been diagnosed with fibromialgia <sp?>. I looked up fibromyalgia and it seems to me to be more of a description of a set of symptoms than a real diagnosis. But what do I know; I am only a dumb surveyor.

Prothaiexpat, I would say that I would equate my symptoms as “similar to the muscle pain experienced with the flu”. As I said this has been going on for many years, if you’re old enough to remember the drug Milltown that should give you an idea how long I have been in pain. I just turned 60 and now would like to live most of the rest of my life without being too aware of the pain. At times it can consume ones being. I think this is why doctors from way back when treated me for anxiety disorder. That’s all I can think of now folks.

Once Again, thanks for taking your time to try to help someone you do not know. Shows a lot of character

Michael

[ProThaiExpat]

I agree that your "diagnosis" of fibromyalgia is a catch all phrase, similar to one I got whicih was polymyalgia rheumatica. Another catch all that merely means diffuse all body muscle ache.

Causes can be rheumatic in origin, although arthritis tests don't confirm and, after all, arthriitis merely means "joint inflamation".

I was put on cortisone and it worked fine except for the mood swings and as explained at the time the doctor prescribed it, the cortisone merely masked the pain, would not cure me. After a month, I went off it and turned to analgesics.

The only one that really worked for me was one I found in Australia, which combined paracetamol 500 mg. with a touch of codeine and an antihistamine for mood improvemnt. Made be very sleepy, but did get to the discomfort.

I was hospitalized for a broken femur last month and the medication for pain, after the morphine, was a western pill consisting of 300 miligrams of paracetamol and 30 mgs. of Tramadol HCL. The dossage was for a Thai sized body in my view, so when I go out of the hospital, I went to my local pharmacy and got tramadol HCL 50 mig. capsusle and combined it with two paracetamol 500mgs and this substitution largely ameliorated the discomfort at very little cost.

Even before the femur fx, I usually took two 500mg paracetamol at sometime during the day for muscular discomfort and was largely comfortable. As a senior, I am resigned to live with the body issued to me and am not looking for long term fixing, just means to make myself comfortable. My femur fx was of the torsion variety and yet my ortho payed no attention to what muscle and ligametous strains and sprains I suffered, and frankly, I felt most of my discomfort came from my muscles, not the fx site.

If your interested in getting another opinion, there is a highly recommended ortho reported in an adjacent thread who has a clinic and may have some insight into your condition, however, for me, as I have said, if a couple of analgesics can make me comfortable, or the tramadol plus paracetamol can remove the discomfort when it gets severe, I am resigned to this self treatment.

As far as your lumbar on lumbar bone condition, fusion is about the only thing that can help that, but as a senior, the chances of complete relief is small. Guarding your back and keeping comfortable is your best bet, if that is possible without surgery. If you go to the highly touted orthos clinic, you can get his opinion on your back as well, keeping in mind that orthopedists are surgeons first and so their inclination is to help people through surgery.

I don't know if Thailand has physiatrists, doctors of medicine who's medical specialty is physical therapy and curative techniques through alternative forms of medicine, but they are certainly the physicians we should be turning to for help with non-specific muscle pain and long standing back conditions where surgery doesn't promise full relief.

Disc narrowing is quite common in the elderly and the degree of "wearing out" of the back through disc degeneration, while a function of lifetime back use, is also largely a result of heredity. There are young men who have "old" backs.

As I have said, if you can get comfortable with a moderate amount of pain medication, of an analgesic variety, do so. I have heard of Miltown used for pain, however, there are many more muscle relaxers that are more specific in their approach. Yes, mood altering drugs do have an affect on mindset and thus indirectly affect attention to muscle signals, however, I prefer to get more specific targeted drugs. I must say, I don't understand how the antihistamine component in my Australian over the counter drug previously mentioned affects mood, but it does and was specifically put into the mix for that purpose in treating muscle discomfort.

I have noticed in the past couple of weeks that I get transient muscle discomfort when I go to bed. It keeps me from going to sleep. Its almost like the lights going on in a pin ball machine, random and ever changing pings and stabs of pain and muscle discomfort, not related to my fx, more to position in bed and the absence of distracton to keep my mind off my body.

In that regard, a mood elevator or mind relaxer may be of benefit. While my general muscle discomfort is tolerable in the last few hours of the day without meds while I watch television, it is when my mind is not distracted upon going to bed that I seem to need something to take my mind of my aches. That is when I need an analgesic but do see where a Miltown or similar mood altering drug would be helpful. Addiction is anothe issue.

PM if you have anything more specific to ask. Good luck.

Edited March 4, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[John K]

Have you been diagnosed with Fibromyalgia?

[ProThaiExpat]

No I haven't, but then again, I have all the symptoms.

So we are clear about what we are talking about:

How To Recognize the Signs and Symptoms of Fibromyalgia

From Carol & Richard Eustice,

Your Guide to Arthritis.

FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!

Fibromyalgia symptoms can overlap with autoimmune diseases and other musculoskeletal conditions making it difficult to diagnose. The defining symptoms of fibromyalgia are often associated with other subjective and objective symptoms which occur in combination.

It is estimated that fibromyalgia syndrome affects about 2 percent of the U.S. population.

Difficulty: N/A

Time Required: Variable

Here's How:

1. In 1990, the American College of Rheumatology (ACR) listed two primary criteria for the classification of fibromyalgia. 1) A history of widespread pain involving all four quadrants of the body (right side, left side, above waist, below waist) for a period of at least 3 months.

2. The second criteria from the ACR which points to fibromyalgia is, upon physical examination, the presence of pain in at least 11 of 18 tender points when touched or pressed with force amounting to the equivalent of 4 kg. or 9 lbs.

* What Are Fibromyalgia Tender Points?

3. More recent data indicates that there may be an increased sensitivity to pain throughout the body, pain may be migratory (move around) or may exist as chronic regional pain. Most experts are said to believe fibromyalgia results from abnormal central nervous system function. Response to stress and psychobehavioral factors may also contribute to fibromyalgia.

4. Fibromyalgia primarily occurs in women of childbearing age. Children, the elderly, and men can also be affected. Besides the defining symptoms of pain and tenderness, there are many nondefining symptoms associated with fibromyalgia including:

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5. Fatigue, night sweats and sleep disturbances.

6. Memory difficulties and cognitive difficulties.

7. Tension or migraine headaches, temporomandibular joint syndrome, rib cage pain (noncardiac chest pain), chronic pelvic pain, plantar or heel pain.

8. Fluctuations in weight, heat or cold intolerance, subjective feeling of weakness.

9. Ear-nose-throat complaints, multiple chemical sensitivities and a wide array of allergic symptoms.

10. Hearing, vision, and vestibular (balance) abnormalities.

11. Heartburn, palpitations and irritable bowel syndrome.

12. Evidence on echocardiogram of mitral valve prolapse, esophageal dysmotility (muscles of esophagus not working properly), neurologic conditions causing hypotension (low blood pressure) and syncope (fainting).

13. Mood disorders such as depression and anxiety occur more commonly in people who have fibromyalgia.

14.

* Fibromyalgia Screening Quiz

* Fibromyalgia - Test Your Knowledge

15.

Sign up today for our free newsletter e-course. Learn more about fibromyalgia by signing up for our free newsletter e-course.

* The Fibromyalgia Guide - Free Newsletter E-Course

Tips:

1. Fibromyalgia can be difficult to diagnose because its symptoms can be non-defining and mimic other diseases. Persist in getting a proper diagnosis.

2. Aerobic exercise, such as swimming and walking, improves muscle fitness and reduces muscle pain and tenderness.

3. Heat and massage may also give short-term pain relief.

* Pain Relief Techniques

4. Patients with fibromyalgia may benefit from a combination of exercise, medication, physical therapy, and relaxation.

* How is Fibromyalgia Treated?

5. Fibromyalgia medication options include:

* antidepressants

* muscle relaxants

* analgesic painkillers

* NSAIDs

* seditives

* other medications that elevate mood, ease pain, relax muslces, promote sleep and fight off fatigue.

* Fibromyalgia Medication Options

What You Need:

* A Good Relationship With Your Rheumatologist Or Doctor.

* A Physical Therapy Regimen You Will Follow.

* A Treatment Program Involving Medication And Exercise.

* A Good Understanding Of Meditation And Relaxation Techniques.

* Ongoing Education - Stay Aware Of Fibromyalgia News And Research.

More How To's from your Guide To Arthritis

Updated: September 13, 2006

[John K]

Well before you can get treated for Fibromyalgia it must first be diagnosed. Pain is the body’s alarm that something is wrong. Fibromyalgia is a malfunctioning alarm. You expect the pain therefore it is there. The pain causes muscles to spasm that eventually will cause problems with the back and other bones by pilling them out of alignment. That starts up a cycle that progressively gets worse. You have listed ways to treat the symptoms, hypnotherapy deals with the cause. There is a bit on my website but I can’t post a link here, but if you click around a bit it should not be to hard to find. Here is an excerpt;

Understanding the Hypnotherapy and why it is so effective: Fibromyalgia is "Disordered sensory processing." Like a bad computer program or a meter or gage that is out of calibration. In Hypnosis suggestions can produce the same confusion. like when you see people walking on hot coals. They don't feel the heat or burning, but they do feel something. So it stands to reason if you can confuse a persons senses with Hypnosis, you can un-confuse the senses of someone with Fibromyalgia the same way. That is the first step of the Hypnotherapy. The second step involves reprogramming the malfunctioning senses.

Logical structure of Hypnotherapy for Fibromyalgia

(why it makes sense)

First: Fibromyalgia is a problem in the brain that causes a person to feel pain without medical reason. Disordered sensory processing.

Second: Hypnosis works in the brain.

Third: If the problem is in the brain, you need to treat the brain. What is happening in the body are the physical symptoms manifested from the brain. The same way a persons muscles in the neck may tense during times of stress. It is a secondary symptom. Stress is in the brain and not the body.

Fourth: Hypnosis can cause a person to feel or not feel things. Hypnosis can cause any sensation to be different than what is to be expected. In short Hypnosis can cause Disordered sensory processing. Examples of this are people walking on hot coals and not feel burning, or how a Stage Hypnotist can cause hallucinations of all senses including visual and kinesthetic.

Fifth: If Hypnosis can cause Disordered sensory processing, then you can accept and understand that Hypnosis can cause Ordered sensory processing.

Sixth: Hypnosis can produce endorphins with suggestions. (pleasure hormone)

Seventh: Endorphins can be up to 20 time stronger than morphine.

Eighth: There are no negative physical side effects to pain management with Hypnotherapy.

Ninth: The ability to control the pain is given directly to the person in Hypnotherapy. They can choose how much pain control to use or not use.

Tenth: Hypnosis can retrain or reprogram the mind to ignore or interpret the symptoms of Fibromyalgia differently. An example would be feel warmth and not pain. The subconscious mind will select what to feel in place of pain.

Eleventh: Only periodic reinforcement of hypnotic suggestions is needed after the therapy. Much like a booster shot. This eliminates or greatly reduces the need of secondary therapies.

Here is another way to think about Fibromyalgia and why the pain does not stay away with conventional therapy. Your driving to work on the normal road you take every day. Suddenly you hit a pothole in the road. You get very upset and hope that you did not do any damage to your car. This information passes into your short term memory. After a few minutes you have forgotten all about the pothole and continue your drive to work.

The next day your driving to work and just a few feet before the pothole you think about it and attempt to turn to miss it. But you are too late and hit it again. At this point your mind has now started to learn about the pothole on a subconscious level. You continue your drive to work as normal and forget all about the pothole by the time you get there.

On the third day your driving to work and just a few moments earlier than before your subconscious mind reminds you of the pothole, and you turn in time to miss it. All the visual cues around that pothole have now started to become associated with the pothole. Perhaps a tree or a mail box or even a street sign are now part of the reminder that there is a pothole here.

On the fourth day as you approach the pothole all the visual cues trigger the memory about the pothole even sooner and you have even more time to react. By about the fifth day you are thinking about the pothole even before you get within sight of it. This continues until you are thinking about that pothole when you are walking to your car. At that point your car has also become part of the subconscious trigger that makes you think about the pothole.

Even when you are not driving to work you may now be very much alert for potholes all over. That pothole has now become part of your trip. To your mind it is no different than anything else in your trip, you have simply come to expect it. This is called a programed response. When you hear or see something you have a reaction. In this case the trip to work makes you think about the pothole and you expect it to be there. What ever caused the pothole in the first place has not even come into the picture. It could have been frost or any number of things. But this does not matter the damage has been done.

Now one day you head to work and notice that the pothole has been fixed. Next your mind sets to erasing the triggers that make you think about the pothole. And after one or two days you have completely forgotten about the pothole.

For a person with Fibromyalgia, the process of erasing does not occur. In their mind the pothole is still there. That Fibromyalgia pothole is still there. This is called Disordered Sensory Processing.

So your brain is saying there is pain, and because of that your muscles could spasm causing more pain. This in turn causes more stress and anxiety that reinforces the minds belief that the pain is there and it is real. This in itself becomes a programmed response that continues to reinforce the symptoms of Fibromyalgia.

The symptoms of Fibromyalgia almost always start as something else, and just slowly progress over time to become Fibromyalgia. For the people who suffer their mind expect the pain to be there, and because of that it is. The brain is very powerful. If you think of your favorite food, chances are your mouth would water. In fact you may even taste it. At that moment your brain has sent a command to your body to start your mouth to water. For the people with Fibromyalgia, their brain sends a signal that there is pain, and the body reacts by causing muscles to tighten or spasm. This in turn can cause other problems like pulling parts of your back out of

location.

This in itself is painful and causes even more pain and may require realignment with a Chiropractic adjustment. Even when pain medications are used the brain of the person with Fibromyalgia is still expecting the pain and fights the pain medication. Because of that the pain remains unless the dosage is so high that it effects the brains ability to process the suggestion of pain. But long before that the pain medications have taken away your personality, your love life, and left you looking and acting somewhat like a zombie. The pain medications, or any other therapy don't work on correcting the Disordered Sensory Processing. As soon as the pain medications wear off, or you develop a resistance to them the pain returns. This also reinforces the suggestion of pain. Hypnotherapy will patch the pothole, and then reprogram the mind to let it know that the pothole is gone.

In a recent discussion with a Doctor who attended a meeting at the University of Connecticut in February 2004 told me the following. "We now believe that there is a enzyme that is lacking in the brains of people who suffer from Fibromyalgia." This supports one opinion why Hypnotherapy works so well with Fibromyalgia. Every thought we have during the day or night causes neurochemical changes in our brain. Hypnosis simply magnifies the changes. Because of that, the specific hypnotic suggestions given in this therapy may cause the brain to start to produce the lacking enzyme. From the last information I have heard that studies were not able to reproduce the enzyme theory finding. However there are a few other theories as to the Cause of Fibromyalgia. Another theory is DNA fragmentation. But when it comes right down to it, the person suffering could care less how the pain goes away, just as long as it goes away. Science has not yet figured out how to ask our brain what the problem is that causes Disordered Sensory Processing, But Hypnotherapy can work with the brain to make the symptoms go away without the brain needing to give up it's secrets. Much like you don't need to know how something works to use it. You don't need to know how your body processes food you eat, You just know it does.

[Sheryl]

I am not aware of any providers in Thailand specializing in fibromyalgia. 2 places that might be worth trying are:

1. Pain Clinic in the Neurology Department of Bangkok International Hospital

2. Physical Therapy Department at Samitivej Hospital, which has a physician who specializes in pain management including accupuncture. I forget the name but should be easy to find on the website.

Both are, I'm afraid, in Bangkok. There simply is not the range of specialist care elsewhere in the country (even Chiang Mai) that there is in Bangkok.

There have also been several threads on his forum on chiropracters, look them up and you may find some recommendations. This, you may find in CM. Also there have been several threads on accupuncture, not sure if they mentioned anyplace in CM but worth looking.

Good luck.

[thaigone]

I am still here. I have been reading with great interest. I have been printing the posts to take with me back to LOS. I have tried accupuncture to no avail and will entertain hypnosis.

What to you think about leaning meditation. I have problems with the phylosphy behind Buddhism as I do with all relegions.

Thanks and please note that my replys are few not because of lack of intrest but because of an abunduncdse of ignorance.

Thanks

Michael

[John K]

Learning self hypnosis is part of the therapy, so learning meditation is not necessary unless you want to learn it anyway.

One catch is you need to be properly diagnosed and referred for hypnotherapy by a doctor. This is because essentially your bodies pain alarm will be turned off at the early stages, the need to know why it is going off is ethically necessary. This therapy is classified as medical hypnosis.

There are a few doctors here in Thailand that will do a referral, the rest have no idea about just how powerful hypnosis is or even understand it’s medical applications. There are only a few hundred hypnotherapists world wide that have received the specialized training and are qualified, and only one in Thailand. Here is a link for you.

http://www.fmsrelief.com/fibro_associates.html

One other thing is the therapy is 12 sessions over 21 weeks, so if you and your doctor decide on hypnotherapy understand what your commitment will be. Week 1, 2, 3 then odd number weeks for the remainder if the 12 sessions. Turning of the pain is at the start of the therapy, the remainder of the therapy is reprogramming the mind not to expect the pain and returning to a more normal lifestyle.

[Pattayatony]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I worked most of my life in construction. I know that most people think surveyors just stand around looking through “that thing” but as a construction surveyor you do a lot of heavy lifting and pounding with a sledge hammer. Around heavy equipment you learn to run up slopes and contort your body.

MY BACK

I have been through a litany of tests from nerve conductivity to MRI. Conductivity is or was normal but my last MRI showed that L4 and L5 are almost bone on bone. Big time sciatic problem. Can’t stand for any duration of time. This started maybe 25 years ago. When it started it put me on the floor writhing in pain. Over the years it has changed from acute pain to numbness in my lower extremities. My sister had/has essentially the same thing with her back, had an operation, put a cage in but still is in great pain, perhaps more than I.

My muscle problem may be directly or partially due to my spine but my symptoms are total body muscle pain and discomfort. I am most aware of the muscles in my neck, shoulders, jaws and of course the area of my sciatic nerve (this is were Thai massage helps the most). Because of these symptoms I have been diagnosed with fibromialgia <sp?>. I looked up fibromyalgia and it seems to me to be more of a description of a set of symptoms than a real diagnosis. But what do I know; I am only a dumb surveyor.

Prothaiexpat, I would say that I would equate my symptoms as “similar to the muscle pain experienced with the flu”. As I said this has been going on for many years, if you’re old enough to remember the drug Milltown that should give you an idea how long I have been in pain. I just turned 60 and now would like to live most of the rest of my life without being too aware of the pain. At times it can consume ones being. I think this is why doctors from way back when treated me for anxiety disorder. That’s all I can think of now folks.

Once Again, thanks for taking your time to try to help someone you do not know. Shows a lot of character

Michael

Michael,

Im no expert but I suffer the same pain as you. I have tried almost everything this is my experence.

Chiropractors>> Make sure you find a good one I have just sacked the guy in Pattaya as he wasnt doing me any good at all but back in Australia I found a really good one that helped me a lot.

Acturpuncture>> I have tried many times and for me it has been a total waste of time and money.

Thai massage>> If it helps keep doing it. Try and find one that specialize in injury they are around but not easy to find.

I went to Cambodia last November and the first day I arrived came down with cronic back pain Sciatic nerve. I asked one of the moto drivers if he knew of a chiropractor or anything else that might help with this pain, he took me to a massage place and my first thoughts were "here we go" but no he came in with me and spoke to the people at the desk about my problem and they got this girl to come in, after a one hour massage from her I was up and walking again and enjoyed the rest of my time in Cambo. Im not saying you should go to Cambodia just saying that there are some in the massage field that really do know what they are doing.

I have tried all types of pain killers they either make me high or just sick in the gut. I have never tried Valium because I have see nightmare stories about the addiction from it. My latest find in Thailand it a tablet called IDARAC 200 made by Aventis they have given me some relief, google it for more info. Not hard to find in Thailand cost about 60-70Baht for a pack of 10.

I know hypnosis will work for some things and Im very interested in what John K has to say about it and yes he does have a good web site, so you may even get a visit from me John.

My next step is to return to Australia for surgery because the pain has just got to the point where I no longer enjoy life.

I wish you luck Michael.

Cheers Tony

[John K]

Actually the therapy is three fold. In the initial hypnotherapy sessions the pain gets turn off and that stops all the pulling on the joints by the tense muscles. Then they get sent to a chiropractor to get aligned and to correct any potential of pinched nerves or whatever that could cause pain and spasms to return. Then off to a massage therapist for deep tissue massage to dig out any remaining trigger points in the muscles. That truly is the best combination that I have seen. That all happens on the first day.

[karenbenn]

There are clinical trials supporting effectiveness of tramadol and acetaminophen combination for fibromyalgia.

Thaigone:

"Thai massage helps lots but it is short term. hel_l, even if I somehow solve this problem I will still get my daily Thai massage."

It is great that you have found some helpful treatment. I would like to note, that pain meds also can bring only temporary relief while you take them.

[Sheryl]

Michael,

Vipassana meditation will certainly help you in a number of ways. It will not remove the pain except to the extent that the pain had a psychosomatic component or was stress-related, but even if there is no change in the pain itself you wil be much better able to deal with it, as well as being happier in general. If interested look at the web site www.dhamma.org

Absolutely no philosophical or religious beliefs are required to learn and practice this technique.

In terms of medical practitioners, as an addendum to the 2 places I mentioned previously, for rheumatologists the best selection is at Bumrungrad, they have about 6 specialists in rheumatology on staff. Don't know if any of these are experienced in management of fibromylagia but you could email their International Patient Services Dept and ask.

I know a fantastic traditional healer in Cambodia who does accupressure, he is the chief of the traditional medicine dept at the Ministry of Health and trained extensively in China and Viet Nam. He gets phenomenal results with musculo-skeltal problems BUT I have no uidea what the effect would be on fibromyalgia. Also must add that the treatment itself is uncomfortable to painful. What he does is basically a type of reflexology but throughout the body, he presses on all the key nerve points in sequence from head to foot, and particulalry when he hits one that has a problem, it hurts for a few minutes, but the effects are amazing, at least for orthopedic conditions. It also seems to re-energize and relive stress. As I said, I have no idea what this would do in a case of fibromylagia and probably neither does anyone else (as it is, the condition is very poorly understood), but if you want to try and are going to Cambodia let me know and I'll provide directions. he's in Phnom Penh, $5 per treatment and usually takes a series of 3 on alternate days.

[thaigone]

My problem with hypnosis is that I was trained in self-hypnosis when I was in my twentys. I found it very effective on many levels but now when I try, I find that my concentration is not what it used to be (too many monkeys running around in my mind). This is why I am interested in meditation. I must discipline my mind first. Perhaps a good hympnotheripist could help me with that also.

'Til I calm the monkeys I will try med therapy to lessen the pain. I do realize that I probably will not be pain free but any little help can be a great help. Not only for the pain but for consentration also. I even tried opium a couple of times at a hill tribe village but I ain't going that route. The anxiety of partispation was more than the muscle relaxing component.

If I must, I have no problem spending time in Bangkok or Cambodia (don't much like it (Bangkok)) but I am a surviver.

All your information is being digested and much appreciated.

Thanks again

Michael

[John K]

There should not be a problem with anything you mention. Tuning up your ability for self hypnosis is very easy. One other thing is hypnotherapy for fibromyalgia is not a short term fix, it corrects the problem because it addresses the cause and not the symptoms. That is why the success rate is so high. Once you finish the therapy they you only come in 2 or 3 times a year for maintenance.

If you don’t like Bangkok then Pattaya is only 2 hours away and 113 Baht bus ride. There is always a pleasant work around.

[Luckydog]

Well before you can get treated for Fibromyalgia it must first be diagnosed. Pain is the body's alarm that something is wrong. Fibromyalgia is a malfunctioning alarm. You expect the pain therefore it is there. The pain causes muscles to spasm that eventually will cause problems with the back and other bones by pilling them out of alignment. That starts up a cycle that progressively gets worse. You have listed ways to treat the symptoms, hypnotherapy deals with the cause. There is a bit on my website but I can't post a link here, but if you click around a bit it should not be to hard to find. Here is an excerpt;

.....................................................

Logical structure of Hypnotherapy for Fibromyalgia

(why it makes sense)

First: Fibromyalgia is a problem in the brain that causes a person to feel pain without medical reason. Disordered sensory processing.

Second: Hypnosis works in the brain.

Third: If the problem is in the brain, you need to treat the brain. What is happening in the body are the physical symptoms manifested from the brain. The same way a persons muscles in the neck may tense during times of stress. It is a secondary symptom. Stress is in the brain and not the body.

Fourth: Hypnosis can cause a person to feel or not feel things. Hypnosis can cause any sensation to be different than what is to be expected. In short Hypnosis can cause Disordered sensory processing. Examples of this are people walking on hot coals and not feel burning, or how a Stage Hypnotist can cause hallucinations of all senses including visual and kinesthetic.

Fifth: If Hypnosis can cause Disordered sensory processing, then you can accept and understand that Hypnosis can cause Ordered sensory processing.

Sixth: Hypnosis can produce endorphins with suggestions. (pleasure hormone)

Seventh: Endorphins can be up to 20 time stronger than morphine.

Eighth: There are no negative physical side effects to pain management with Hypnotherapy.

Ninth: The ability to control the pain is given directly to the person in Hypnotherapy. They can choose how much pain control to use or not use.

Tenth: Hypnosis can retrain or reprogram the mind to ignore or interpret the symptoms of Fibromyalgia differently. An example would be feel warmth and not pain. The subconscious mind will select what to feel in place of pain.

Eleventh: Only periodic reinforcement of hypnotic suggestions is needed after the therapy. Much like a booster shot. This eliminates or greatly reduces the need of secondary therapies.

Here is another way to think about Fibromyalgia and why the pain does not stay away with conventional therapy. Your driving to work on the normal road you take every day. Suddenly you hit a pothole in the road. You get very upset and hope that you did not do any damage to your car. This information passes into your short term memory. After a few minutes you have forgotten all about the pothole and continue your drive to work.

The next day your driving to work and just a few feet before the pothole you think about it and attempt to turn to miss it. But you are too late and hit it again. At this point your mind has now started to learn about the pothole on a subconscious level. You continue your drive to work as normal and forget all about the pothole by the time you get there.

On the third day your driving to work and just a few moments earlier than before your subconscious mind reminds you of the pothole, and you turn in time to miss it. All the visual cues around that pothole have now started to become associated with the pothole. Perhaps a tree or a mail box or even a street sign are now part of the reminder that there is a pothole here.

On the fourth day as you approach the pothole all the visual cues trigger the memory about the pothole even sooner and you have even more time to react. By about the fifth day you are thinking about the pothole even before you get within sight of it. This continues until you are thinking about that pothole when you are walking to your car. At that point your car has also become part of the subconscious trigger that makes you think about the pothole.

Even when you are not driving to work you may now be very much alert for potholes all over. That pothole has now become part of your trip. To your mind it is no different than anything else in your trip, you have simply come to expect it. This is called a programed response. When you hear or see something you have a reaction. In this case the trip to work makes you think about the pothole and you expect it to be there. What ever caused the pothole in the first place has not even come into the picture. It could have been frost or any number of things. But this does not matter the damage has been done.

Now one day you head to work and notice that the pothole has been fixed. Next your mind sets to erasing the triggers that make you think about the pothole. And after one or two days you have completely forgotten about the pothole.

...........

The symptoms of Fibromyalgia almost always start as something else, and just slowly progress over time to become Fibromyalgia. For the people who suffer their mind expect the pain to be there, and because of that it is. The brain is very powerful. If you think of your favorite food, chances are your mouth would water. In fact you may even taste it. At that moment your brain has sent a command to your body to start your mouth to water. For the people with Fibromyalgia, their brain sends a signal that there is pain, and the body reacts by causing muscles to tighten or spasm. This in turn can cause other problems like pulling parts of your back out of

location.

.................

In a recent discussion with a Doctor who attended a meeting at the University of Connecticut in February 2004 told me the following. "We now believe that there is a enzyme that is lacking in the brains of people who suffer from Fibromyalgia." This supports one opinion why Hypnotherapy works so well with Fibromyalgia. Every thought we have during the day or night causes neurochemical changes in our brain. Hypnosis simply magnifies the changes. Because of that, the specific hypnotic suggestions given in this therapy may cause the brain to start to produce the lacking enzyme. From the last information I have heard that studies were not able to reproduce the enzyme theory finding. However there are a few other theories as to the Cause of Fibromyalgia. Another theory is DNA fragmentation. But when it comes right down to it, the person suffering could care less how the pain goes away, just as long as it goes away. Science has not yet figured out how to ask our brain what the problem is that causes Disordered Sensory Processing, But Hypnotherapy can work with the brain to make the symptoms go away without the brain needing to give up it's secrets. Much like you don't need to know how something works to use it. You don't need to know how your body processes food you eat, You just know it does.

One of the best posts ever......thanks John

Edited March 26, 2007 by Luckydog

[english_farang_lady]

Read "The Chronic Pain Solution - Your Personal Path to Pain Relief" by James N. Dillard MD, DC, C.Ac. Published by Bantam, a division of Random House. ISBN 0-553-38111-3

Covers understanding pain, taking control of your treatment, various therapies, including meditation (without the religious part), detailed painful conditions, and other special considerations. I found it very helpful when I had a bad back.