Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

[Andrew Hicks]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

[cdnvic]

I think that poor is more a state of mind than anything. Take a person with enough to eat, a home to live in, and his family. He will be happy until someone convinces him he's poor.

[Solosiam]

Depends on what you define as poverty.

I've never met a starving Thai for example,

[meadish_sweetball]

It's all subjective until you define what you are comparing with.

To compute a poverty measure, three ingredients are needed:

1. One has to define the relevant welfare measure.

2. One has to select a poverty line – that is a threshold below which a given household or individual will be classified as poor.

3. One has to select a poverty indicator– which is used for reporting for the population as a whole or for a population sub-group only.

[canadiangirl]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

Thailand is poor, Laos is poorer, but I think many people are surprised (I was) to see that poverty in Thailand is nothing like the pictures you see on the news of thirld world countries in Africa -- which I think is most people's view of the third world. There's a difference between being poor and utter destitution. I think this is what people are referring to when they mean "Thailand is not poor". War plays a big part in turning mere poverty into being completely f*, IMHO, as well as a country's particular history with respect to colonialism. Places with strong family structures and strong culture seem to have the best chance of doing ok in the end, while in some places, the basic fabric of society seems to have disintegrated completely.

Thailand is fortunate for a poor country compared to its neighbors, IMHO. It has a generous climate for agriculture, and was never colonized. It's not a desperate country. However, people who think Thailand is not a poor country are insane. You can't drink the water, the roads are unsafe, the average monthly wage is 240$ (CAN), migrant workers leave the country to work at what is basically slave labor (see the TV thread on Thai couple working in the UK for half the legal minimum wage, can't complain or they'll get deported, had to mortgage their family land to a broker to pay for the ticket there) -- should I go on?

[crewcut]

The majority of Isan Farmers are, what I would class as poor, getting by just but with no money for any real luxuries. The majority will have supplemental incomes from their children who will mostly be working away on building jobs or in cities with shop/restaurant work.

Fortunately Thailand has the right settings for food to grow well and has a much better economy and infrastructure of many of their neighbours.

CC.

[wileycoyote]

I agree it is all relative.

cdnvic makes a good point emotional happiness can be more value than material possessions.

Also,although we may work a 48 week year,the life of a farmer can vary with the seasons,hence the ability to work on construction,handicrafts,fishing etc to supplement income.

The "barter economy" generally means he is not short of anything ,and this make for good neighbours .

Providing he/she is in good health ,they have fresh air, a better diet and manual work which may mean that they have a better lifestyle,old age forecast than farang.

Wiley Coyote

[rainman]

They probably live better lifes than those in Bangkok living in those wooden huts under the bridge.

[Neeranam]

They seem to have new pick-up trucks like Toyota Vigos here in Khon Kaen.

This would say that, yes they are poor and can't afford a real car, but no they're not poor as they have new trucks.

[rainman]

They seem to have new pick-up trucks like Toyota Vigos here in Khon Kaen.

This would say that, yes they are poor and can't afford a real car, but no they're not poor as they have new trucks.

But then again, why would they need a city car to drive in the dirt roads?

[kmart]

They seem to have new pick-up trucks like Toyota Vigos here in Khon Kaen.

This would say that, yes they are poor and can't afford a real car, but no they're not poor as they have new trucks.

Give them a few pennies to rub together and they'll get all snobbish and uppity, eh?

[LongThaimer]

I live in a village far out in the rice fields of Surin and in my view many of my neighbours can be called poor. I've just got back from southern Laos and they are relatively poorer there, but I still think there is rural poverty throughout Thailand.

Do readers agree with this and more particularly what do they think of those whose view is that there is no poverty here?

I've come across a number of farang recently who point to the obvious signs of growing wealth and then conclude that there is no poverty. This opinion is recurrent and insistent and I am curious to know why.

Any thoughts?

There is poverty in Thailand.

Material possessions financed by credit is not real wealth. If one day, all farmers in Issan could afford to purchase their brand new trucks with profits from their farms then you could say Thailand has won over poverty.

As long as they remain dependednt on blood sucking creditors, they will remain poor and in poverty .

[Stephen Cleary]

pov·er·ty /ˈpɒvərti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pov-er-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun

1. the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor; indigence.

2. deficiency of necessary or desirable ingredients, qualities, etc.: poverty of the soil.

3. scantiness; insufficiency: Their efforts to stamp out disease were hampered by a poverty of medical supplies.

Let's have a look at the definition of Poverty (dictionary.com) above.

1. Well, very very few Thais even Isarn farmers don't have any money - which is often due to the notion of 'family support' embedded within Thai custom. Even if a farmer only earns a 100 baht a day, that is still enough to eat, drink and buy shampoo. Next, 'No Goods' well, that's hard to define in itself - but if you claim that a new motorbike, buffalo, TV and an MP3 are essential goods, then yes, there is a lotta poverty.

2. Would also include housing and clothing etc.... then again, especially in regards to housing there is the notion of 'family support' again. I believe Britain has more homeless than in Thailand. Poor quailty soil, yes, then there is often poverty in regard to that.

3. There is the 30baht health scheme (perhaps it's free now altogether). I know the service is pretty crap but at least they have one. Deep in the countryside though, it isn't easy access to health services, but still in regards to 3 there isn't much poverty in Thailand.

In my opinion then, i would say that No - there isn't a lot of poverty in Thailand., but sure most Thai farmers (esp. Isarn) are poor. That's only my idea but perhaps some other folk will define 'Poverty' in different ways, so disgreeing with what i wrote.

By the way, i would prefer to live poor in an Isarn village than some Glasgow slum!

Edited August 28, 2007 by Stephen Cleary

[canadiangirl]

They probably live better lifes than those in Bangkok living in those wooden huts under the bridge.

Probably right. I'd rather be poor in the country than in a city slum, if it came down to it.

[ElectricNorth]

Agreed that Thais are poor by many standards.

With mobile phones, motorbike, clothes on their backs, often a place to live and sleep and food to eat coupled with a good climate and family bonds they cannot be described as poverty stricken.

As ever all is relative. To a multi-millionaire with his yacht and penthouse suite many Thais would seem to him to be in poverty, but people like that do not usually care.

[Payboy]

Are Isaan Farmers 'poor'?

is the pope catholic?

[roietjimmy]

Profoundly poor indeed! Poor in the sense of their inability to acquire the products promoted and sold in a world gone insane with consumerism and material wealth.

But far richer than most in their, religious beliefs, commitment to family, sense of community, culture, ability to feed themselves by adapting to their environment, and finally in their ability to survive several hundred years on the bottom rung of the social ladder.

[Gary A]

I have always said that the up country farmers didn't know they were poor until they got televisions. They thought no one had any money and everyone lived off the land. As far as new shiny pickup trucks, I can assure you that very few have them even if you do see a lot of them on the roads. In the Loei area a prosperous farmer has a Tak Tak mechanical buffalo and a trailer to haul his seed and crops. They do consider themselves fortunate to have enough to eat and a roof over their heads. Even though they have VERY little money they are probably happier than most people on this little globe.

[bangkoksingapore]

"Profoundly poor indeed! Poor in the sense of their inability to acquire the products promoted and sold in a world gone insane with consumerism and material wealth."

lol. you realize that these poor farmers are just as interested in these products as the city folk, right? when they get extra money the first thing they do is go and spend it on gold or consumer products. they are not living the simple life out of choice.

some of you really do make me laugh, though. keep it up.

[roietjimmy]

"Profoundly poor indeed! Poor in the sense of their inability to acquire the products promoted and sold in a world gone insane with consumerism and material wealth."

lol. you realize that these poor farmers are just as interested in these products as the city folk, right? when they get extra money the first thing they do is go and spend it on gold or consumer products. they are not living the simple life out of choice.

some of you really do make me laugh, though. keep it up.

Of course they want these products. Simply stated they didn't have the money (inability) to buy them, i.e. they are poor!!! Your assumption that somehow my comment implied they lived this way out of choice "really does make me laugh. keep it up."

[tracer5050]

I spend time in Isaan in the village with my wife family. Do they have alog of money not really I help them from time to time money for rice planting ect . I would say they are poor. I grew up on a farm in the US . Yes we did not have the same things that people in the city had. But we was a happy family.

The people in Isaan Poor ?,Yes money wize. But i have seem them laugh and the family showing love, That way not poor . In my book anyway

[tracer5050]

sorry for cross post

[Austhaied]

Poor material wise, but rich in happiness.

Who's right and who's wrong.

[Robski]

Profoundly poor indeed! Poor in the sense of their inability to acquire the products promoted and sold in a world gone insane with consumerism and material wealth.

But far richer than most in their, religious beliefs, commitment to family, sense of community, culture, ability to feed themselves by adapting to their environment, and finally in their ability to survive several hundred years on the bottom rung of the social ladder.

Very true, the lower classes in all societies, although much maligned by those above them, have a far greater understanding of the value of social bonds such as family, community and religion and in a sense are far 'richer' for it than the priviledged person who has only his own vanity to believe in.

It's not all love and smiles though and although the poor in Thailand may have enough to eat, they still have less opportunity in life and work themselves to an earlier grave than their more privelidged counterparts.

I think posters saying there are no poor people (general poverty) in Thailand (Issan) are only pronouncing their ignorance to the daily existence of many people in this country.

When I was 14 I had a part time job and when I was 16 I started working 5 days a week. In Thailand boys and girls that come from families unable to pay to continue their education start hard physical work in fields and on building sites, or worse, at the age of 14, in many cases long hours for 7 days a week, should they be grateful that they are 'not poor' because they have enough to eat?

Edited August 29, 2007 by Robski

[track61]

This is an interesting thread because it shows the broad differences in how we falangs define poor. I consider Issan farmers certainly materially poor. But far from destitute or trapped in the vicous poverty circle like many countries.

Thailand has always been able to feed itself, which I think is the first requisite to avoiding destitution. It's really hard to change or accomplish much when the people must scrabble every minute of every day just to try to keep their kids from starving, and eeven so, sometimes without success.

[Maigo6]

Neeranam you live in Khon Kaen, Khon Kaen ain't exactly poverty stricken, of course you're gonna see nice cars there, it's a City.

I even saw some ancient Mazda car chugging along in Khon Kaen, so not everybody has a new motor.

[blizzard]

i think issarns know they poor or else why on earth would so many send their young ladies to work in bkk in somewhat dubious kinds of jobs.

[LongThaimer]

Somehow, even poor people have to find some form of happiness to keep their lives meaningful, for many having an positive outlook on life helps them absorb the harsh realities of being in poverty more tolerable.

Skin-deep observations of seeing them happy do not imply they are not in financial debts or in need of material wealth easily taken for granted by more fortunate individuals.

[ozzydom]

Dont let the poor Thai farmers ability to smile in the face of adversity fool you ,they are doing it tough and have been for a long ,long time.

They are in debt 6 feet over their heads,if not for the village banking scheme, most would not have access to cash for this years seed and fertilizer, after borrowing they have to hope for a rice harvest good enough to pay the debt with maybe enough rice left for their table till next year.

A great many no longer possess the titles to their small holdings,they went to the money lenders as collateral long ago and they have no hope of ever getting enough cash together to pay out the loans.

In my village there are two cars ,mine and the local lady of the night who has a generous benefactor from the UK,there are 6 pick-ups,2 very old 2 owned by local policemen and 2 owned by well off locals of Chinese and Vietnamese descent.

About 1 in 5 landholders have iron buffaloes the rest have to hire them (with payment after harvest, maybe) or lease their land to them for what they can get.

The lucky ones are the ones who have menfolk working in the building industry in Bangkok or female family members in the factories or bars sending back a few baht a month.

It is only at special occasions like Songkarn or funerals when they all come home that you realize the extent of the city migration of able-bodied village men and women and why the villages mainly consist of the elderly,the very young and the infirmed.

Subsistance farming is a dodo.

The neglected state of the average village home indicates what happens when subsistance farming fails and the men have to leave their families for months on end to put a bit of food on the table.

[Suszzy]

Poor material wise, but rich in happiness.

Who's right and who's wrong.

Exactly!!

you guys know so much about thai farmers