Teaching Without A Permit (continued)

[Matty]

Can anyone give me some advice on doing teaching work without a work-permit.It seems to go on,but how risky is it?

[Jockstar]

Mate. its is possible to work without a work permit. I take it you dont have a degree? Alot of jobs will want a degree as you cant get a work permit without one. From experience you can get a job no worries. You should check out the Bangkok Post and also ajarn.com. There is an article this week on ajarn that will give you a laugh. If you have no experience at all. Then i suggest doing a couple of courses through the British council. these are an intro to TEFL and also a young learners course. These helped me alot. But you will still not get a work permit. but hey if your a good teacher then the school will probabaly employ you. Then you will have to go on a visa run every few months. But beware. There are jobs out for people like us with no degree. But watch they dont shaft you. If you really want a job you can find one . Just dont go around advertising to everyone you dont have a permit.ie Khao San or the likes. But hey mate. Dont stress. You'll be alright. all the best. Maybe not the best time to be looking though. Feb/March/April probably the best. But happy looking.

[BronzeRider]

Hi Matty and welcome to the board.

Working without a permit is a no no. Your question has brought debates with many unclear answers. A good percentage of schools will want you to teach for a probationary period; 2 months or 3 months before they will go through the process of obtaining a work permit for you. Some schools will ask that you have all your documents ready (they will tell you what you need) within the first week and then they will take care of the rest.

Apply for the job, do it and hope things work out. They seem to.

Just remember, if there is a labour department blitz kreig on schools, you will be the one facing a severe headache. Not the school.

On a happy note: I was in Bangkok - 1992 - at a language school at the time when immigartion and labour walked in and wanted to see work permits for the teachers. The officers looked at the company ownership papers and documents. When they saw a pictue at the top of the company chart, they said everything was ok and left.

BR

[Jockstar]

Matty. as for what the previous guy said regarding it as a no no. Thats bullshit. Sure it could tits up. But i have been here for nearly 3 years and heard of no one getting busted. Just remember that you CANNOT GET A WORK PERMIT WITHOUT A DEGREE. But you can get a job. When i was looking 3 years ago. I had 2 schools offer me work without a degree. They said that i could go on a visa run every few months. No probs. No money deducted from my salary. But its personally up to you. I have a good school and they understand. mate i'm not a first. Like many schools they need farang teachers in the classrooms. If you have degree, then you have nothing to worry about. If you dont then, of course be careful. But i wouldn't personally worry. if for some reason i lost my job then i would have no problem with going to another school and doing the same. But again check out ajarn.com and make up your own mind.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

He does need to know the extent of the risk that he potentially faces in the event that he is sprung. Detention ... Deportation ... Banned from entering Thailand. Let him weigh up the risks for himself.

[samran]

Thats right fella's. Go to a foreign country where you are a guest and willfully break their laws. Outstay your welcome and make the rest of the Farangs who are doing things by the book get a bad name.

Encourage schools to continue to be bad employers who provide nothing for their staff and even less for their students.

While you are at it. Don't come-a-crying when you get shafted in any way shape or form by the Thai authorities. You deserved it.

[MartinB]

Risk Free Teaching means having a degree, getting a work permit and setting a good example for your students. Teachers should be honest and trustworthy and abide by the laws set by the country that they are teaching in.

Risky Teaching means not having a degree, not having a work permit and having no integrity or respect for your students, and it means that your breaking the law, which means you’re a potential criminal. Would you like your kids to be taught by a con artist?

[bonsaimax]

Obviously, obtaining a college degree might be out of the question for most. Why not invest your time and money in a teaching course which is honored as a "qualification" by Thai institutions. It will be worth it if you plan to stay long term.

[MartinB]

If you want to be 100% legitimate, to teach you need a degree and that’s the bottom-line. Sure you can get a TEFL certificate and this will help you to get a job, but it will not get you a work permit and hence you will be in a risky position.

good luck

[mbkudu]

Having a degree is all well and good but most people who have degrees are not

looking to teach anyway. For many Farang in Thailand teaching is the last resort.

A lot of people even 'teach' in between jobs to get by. Schools in Thailand know this and will hire presentable Farangs as teachers without work permits because they are cheap to hire. A lot of these teachers are suprisingly good and others are not so suprisingly bad. In years past it was easy to teach without a work permit and make decent money, but now with tight visa restrictions times are changing.

Schools will gladly let teachers go off on visa runs, but the question is how many

visa runs will immigration allow these teachers to run before they start asking questions.

[StillDozin]

"Risky Teaching means not having a degree and having no integrity or respect for your students."

Because having a degree makes humans far more respectable, kind, and good with children?

Where to people come up with this shit?

I knew plenty of honorable, but illegal mexicans in NYC that i would love to have teach my kids to speak Spanish.

Yes, but won't they warp my childs mind! Oh, gawd! NO! He will be a criminal...

[mbkudu]

If you want to be 100% legitimate, to teach you need a degree and that’s the bottom-line. Sure you can get a TEFL certificate and this will help you to get a job, but it will not get you a work permit and hence you will be in a risky position.

good luck

I'm sorry but I disagree with this completely. Schools will obtain work permits for qualified teachers if they want to hire them badly enough. Things can be done in Thailand; don't kid yourself. Before a school will even consider getting a work permit for a new teacher, he or she must work on a trial basis, usually between

three and four weeks and then the permit is applied for. Answer me this: Why would a person with a BA or a master's want to teach and earn 25,000-40,000 Baht

per month when they could be working in a company making anywhere from

60,000-100,000 Baht per month. Let's be serious now.

[MartinB]

I disagree with degree law, but the question was how risky (legal) is it to teach without a work permit, and you have to have a degree if you want to do things legally. If you have a BA in education you will earn a basic 50K if your European and 60K if your Japanese or American – don’t ask me how the Thai educational guys came up with the numbers, but apparently thats the new new rules that come into play this August.

[Rhys]

well, as everyone has said in some form or fashion...yes, you can teach, but no work permit.. depends on the school.. and don't think your Thai assistant is there 100 percent to help you with the paper work... Depend on your persona, depends on the school, depends on the grade level...

Keep you eyes open... cheers and good luck.

[Matty]

Cheers for all the advice,pretty much as I expected.It can be done,but your putting your neck on the line.After 18 months living in LOS,I know the Thai authorities don't cut you any slack,even when your 100 legal.

[meadish_sweetball]

Cheers for all the advice,pretty much as I expected.It can be done,but your putting your neck on the line.After 18 months living in LOS,I know the Thai authorities don't cut you any slack,even when your 100 legal.

That's a bit too simplistic I think.

Better treatment is often possible if you try to do things by the book, adapt to and show an interest in Thai society and the "value package" which is promoted as Thai values to children (importance of the nation and family, the Monarchy, and Buddhism). The most important point though, is to be friendly and open, and make friends with influential people - if you are willing to do this, Wthen your life in Thailand will be easier than otherwise. Whether this is good or bad is another discussion.

[BronzeRider]

I disagree with degree law, but the question was how risky (legal) is it to teach without a work permit, and you have to have a degree if you want to do things legally. If you have a BA in education you will earn a basic 50K if your European and 60K if your Japanese or American ? don?t ask me how the Thai educational guys came up with the numbers, but apparently thats the new new rules that come into play this August.

Do you mean to say that the govennment schools will have to pay 50-60k p/m come August?

I think that the schools will pay 25-30 k a month and the tax department will expect you to pay tax on 50-60k.

I'm all ears on new info

BR

[Khutan]

Without too much said, I know someone who got a teaching job at a far upcountry school, no degree etc etc, the Government school "Handled" things.......

I suppose if you look around and find a school desperate enough, they will make the cases for you.

[Marmite the Dog]

Wow, how much misinformation can one thread contain?!

A couple of points.

You can get a WP without a degree. It is extremely difficult in Bangkok, but quite normal elsewhere.

Teachers are NOT subject to the salary laws.

There are probably more "teachers" working here without a WP than with. If, in the very unlikely event your school is 'raided', you will almost certainly NOT get deported.

Laws in Thailand are there because civilised countries have them, not because the rule of law is respected here. In other words, it looks good to have them.

The recent 'crackdowns' from immigration isn't directed at Farangs working here. Its more of an effort to rid the country of illegals from boardering countries and some of the dodgy characters that cause problems here or who can't get there act together to go out and work for a living.

In a few weeks, most of the AjarnForum crowd should be here, so we should start seeing some sensible and practicle advice on a whole plethora of subjects pertaining to teaching in Thailand.

[kenkannif]

You can get a WP without a degree. It is extremely difficult in Bangkok, but quite normal elsewhere.

^ Well in the smaller places, still tricky in your Phuket's, Chiang Mai's, Samui's and Pattaya's. Indo Siam or Sun Belt Asia wrote an excellent piece covering exactly that happens if you don't have a WP (I'll try to cut and paste it for you!).

Also I wouldn't say there are zero crackdowns on farangs that are working here (try and get a 'normal' job and see what happens) but they're not clamping down on English teachers as they offer a service most Thais can't. So as long as you're (generally and obviously I don't condone it etc.) not taking a job away from a Thai and don't pee any of your fellow ajarns off, you should be okay. They're not going out of their way to hassle EFL/ESL teachers as they offer a much wanted and needed service (although you wouldn't think it sometimes

If Imm or Labor wanted to make problems, they could shut down pretty much every school here in Thailand (okay maybe I'm being OTT but you get what I mean?).

[jesrictaq]

I hope you get what you deserve!Maybe not now but in the future.You will pay the price for what you are now

[kenkannif]

Karma man!

Basically the way the MoE issue teachers licences and thus work permits (please listen to me mate) IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY (got that ANY!!!) private language school to obtain work permits FOR ALL OF THEIR TEACHERS!

So when all the teachers leave and the Thai's haven't got anyone to teach them or their kids.....are you going to do it for 30 odd k a month? Get real mate!

In my time here I've heard (reliably) of only one teacher gettign deported (from Pattaya) for not having a work permit. Don't condone it, but for some people here with families, well they've not go much choice have they.

Worry about yourself mate

[Ijustwannateach]

^Exactly, Ken... I've had more experience here with schools that COULDN'T get a work permit, no matter how qualified the candidate, than with ones that COULD. The unofficial official word seems to have it that they want to have even fewer actual work permits floating around out there- something about "Thai Rak Thai."

To be fair, the penalties if you are caught are potentially extreme- including incarceration in a Thai jail just as a Cambodian illegal worker might face. I've never heard of this happening to any farang for English teaching, however.

It's ok if you look at it as a bit of a lark- but if you're serious about staying here for awhile, better to INSIST on the WP first and see how far that gets you- and be ready to move on.

"Steven"

P.S. Who's jesrictag got it in for, and why?

[kenkannif]

Also even when you do have a work permit, quite often it's not really going to cover you to do your job. Most of them are location specific, so will not cover you if you're shipped off to teach off premises (of the school/agency that employs you) at a government school or business. Quite often if you're teaching maths or science etc. your school would have obtained you a WP purely as an EFL/ESL teacher (as you're supposed to have a degree in the subject you're teaching...generally). So even those that are legal, are probable a lickle bit illegal as well. Don't blame the teachers, rather blame the crazy system they have here.

[Neeranam]

Wow, how much misinformation can one thread contain?!

A couple of points.

You can get a WP without a degree. It is extremely difficult in Bangkok, but quite normal elsewhere.

Teachers are NOT subject to the salary laws.

There are probably more "teachers" working here without a WP than with. If, in the very unlikely event your school is 'raided', you will almost certainly NOT get deported.

Laws in Thailand are there because civilised countries have them, not because the rule of law is respected here. In other words, it looks good to have them.

The recent 'crackdowns' from immigration isn't directed at Farangs working here. Its more of an effort to rid the country of illegals from boardering countries and some of the dodgy characters that cause problems here or who can't get there act together to go out and work for a living.

In a few weeks, most of the AjarnForum crowd should be here, so we should start seeing some sensible and practicle advice on a whole plethora of subjects pertaining to teaching in Thailand. 

Good post !

Look at the facts.

I have known of one person to get deported for not having a WP.(they pissed someone off badly) I am legal now but have was working on a tourist visa for years. I have seen one raid, noone arrested. Nothing to worry about. I have taught here for nearly 10 years.

I even taught the kids of a senior policeman who didn't give a toss about me not having a WP. We even got pissed one night and he assured me not to worry. Don't be paranoid about it, mate, you will soon make friends here.

It is impossible for all teachers to get a WP, so they work without one -it is the way it is.

[kenkannif]

Tis possible to get a work permit without a degree:

It is not true that you MUST have a degree to get a work permit.  In think that current government policy DOES require that you have a degree to be a tecaher -including and English teacher.

There is a specific form and procedure at the work permit office that must be filled out for foreigners applying who have no University degree.  It must be signed by a company director.

The short of it is:  if you do not have a degree, then you want to bring as much documenttaion as you possibly can concerning what credentials and experience you do have.  If you have documentation showing that you have been to any technical certification courses (MSCE, or Cisco certification, or whatever) - bring it.  If possible, bring employment letters from employers covering at least the five most recent years - they need to identify the employer, the nature of its business, your job position, the dates held, what your job responsibilities were, and that your performed well - and be signed by the company CEO/President/Managing Director, on company letterhead - with stamps, seals, even notary apostilizations (if possible - but not required) - the Thai officials eat this stuff up.

Lacking a University degree, it is up to you to DOCUMENT that you have adequate actual work experience, and then your supervisor needs to certify thart he/she has reviewed your qualifications, finds you suitable to perform the function, and that a Thai cannot reasonably be expected to be hired to do the job instead of you.

Good luck!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

[email protected]

www.thaistartup.com

[Ijustwannateach]

^and I imagine the same will be true for some time of a TEFL cert. (fair's fair!)

Though naturally having a degree and a TEFL cert. will make the process that much easier, and are both desirable, etc., etc.

But I would hate to think that nearly 10 years of experience (including ECC training at the beginning) would make me ineligible for a TEFL job unless I went back for a cert.!

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Possibly experience would count in this case rather than having paperwork. But the nightmare is if you haven't been WPed up at the schools where you've been teaching....how can you 'prove' experience without basically admitting you've been naughty! Catch 22!

[Pudgimelon]

Wow, how much misinformation can one thread contain?!

A couple of points.

You can get a WP without a degree. It is extremely difficult in Bangkok, but quite normal elsewhere.

Teachers are NOT subject to the salary laws.

There are probably more "teachers" working here without a WP than with. If, in the very unlikely event your school is 'raided', you will almost certainly NOT get deported.

Laws in Thailand are there because civilised countries have them, not because the rule of law is respected here. In other words, it looks good to have them.

The recent 'crackdowns' from immigration isn't directed at Farangs working here. Its more of an effort to rid the country of illegals from boardering countries and some of the dodgy characters that cause problems here or who can't get there act together to go out and work for a living.

In a few weeks, most of the AjarnForum crowd should be here, so we should start seeing some sensible and practicle advice on a whole plethora of subjects pertaining to teaching in Thailand.

Agreed, most of the dire warnings about working without a WP, are just silly fear-mongering on the part of 'barstool experts' who just like putting one over on newbies.

However, this is a classic example of the difference between "CAN" and "SHOULD".

Can you find a teaching job without a work permit?

Sure there are plenty.

Should you teach without a work permit??

Please don't.

[kenkannif]

^ But as mentioned sometimes it's teach without a WP...or.....or....or....what?

Once again a lot of schools CAN'T issue any more WPs whether they wanted to or not. And once you do have a WP quite often it won't actually (100%) cover you to do your job!

And it's not finding a job without a work permit (you generally get the work permit AFTER you've started teaching not before) it's getting the WP once you have the job that's the problem for various reasons!

Will you have to teach without a work permit at some point or another?

Unfortunately yes!