Seven Years With A Thai Girl Livein

[Larryst]

I posted this in the Real Estate Section. But, I would like everyone to know. This can happen to anyione. Things do change drastically.

Here's my experience on relationship with a livein and building a house and having a future.

I knew a TG for over 7 years. I lived with her for over 4 years, been with her for 3 years on my trips to LOS. When I decided to move to Thailand in February 2004 things were great with her. After about 10 months or so I decided to sell my condo in Jomtein (big mistake). So we decided to move up north by her home in the Phetchabun area. We built a excellent nice bungalow. Had everything there. Granite flooring countertops, satellite, all new furnishings for the house. The area was building up so there was a few things for farangs to do. I was leary on building a house in a TG's name so I had it put in a corporation. Then about a 1 1/2 years later my livein mentioned she had some land. We could build a house on it, cheaper and save some money from the sale of the house, I had built. I figured things were great and had no problems. So I sold the house and her relatives built a house. They did a horseshit job on building it. But, I hired a thai guy to come in and replace and fix the fuc_kups on the builders they did. So things were great. Life was good so far. Then about a 1/1/2 later she started getting moody. In January 2008 she started giving me the silent treatment. After a bit, I asked what's the problem. The response is "Nothing". So after 2 months or more of the cold treatment and her comng to bed at 1, 2 or 3 in the morning and being a starfish. I started getting mad. I was giving her around 7,000 or 8,000 baht a month. Which is good for up there. Since the average thai joe makes about 4,000 a month. So I told her, I don't give any money to someone I don't talk to and money to someone who doesn't want to come to bed. I kept asking her all the time. What is the problem and we could work things out. Still she would say nothing or just ignore me and walk away. So around April 1st. I didn't give her money. Then things really went bad. So I decided to move out. I had to get my stuff out of there. So a friend that lived by me bought some of the larger items and helped me get a truck to get out of there. When he was going to get the stuff. There was a problem. Even with receipts in my name for the beds, satellite, water tank pump, TV, tables, refrigerator, washer and other things. They are not mine. Because it's in her house. I finally worked out a deal with her. So I could sell the things. So I would have some cash to get the <deleted> out of the village. In the process on the day my friend and his wife came to pickup the stuff she brought a long a policeman to fill out a list of the things I could take. My girl had to sign it. Otherwise, if she didn't sign it. I couldn't sell it and I could not take anything. While signing, her mom was there and her mom was giving problems. Telling my girl what to do. So on that day most of the larger things were sold & my things I wanted were packed up in a pickup to move to Pattaya.

Finally I got a little response from the girl as to what the problem is. Her mom was finishing her thai boyfriend and she needed a place to live. So it's easier to give me the boot and let her mom have the house. Since her mom has the house, my girl is now in BKK working with her sister. I told her why she didn't tell me this before. If she needed more cash I could give her more and we could have worked out things between us. There was no working out. Her mom wanted the house, more money and everything. I told her I could give more money to her so she could give it to her mom. Her 2 sisters could give some to her mom and her useless brother could send some money to her mom. But, no way. I am a farang so her sisters and brother don't have to. I think her mom has told her 2 daughters to also finish there thai husbands. So she could get more money.

Here is a good example or two on how f****n bullshit before the move. I was cleaning up the house because I knew I was leaving. So I seen a recycling guy in a truck to stop by. Take the plastic (a lot of Pepsi Max bottles), scrap steel that sat by the house for 8 months and some empty coffee cans from the states that was in a cupboard for over a year. Her mom seen them come by and she flipped out. My girl came and said why are you selling now. I just said I was cleaning things up so it wouldn't look like junk around there. Her mom was still mad. But I did get 300 baht from the recycle guy. I was also told my girl and her mom took my motorbike to a motorcycle shop to see what they could get. Good thing my bike was in my name. She couldn't sell it.

So after everything is done & over. Seven years with a girl you have been with. Who you think really loves you and trust. Will give you the walking papers in a flash of a eye. Or her mom tells her daughter to finish you immediately. I lose a house approximately 600,000 to 700,000 baht, a Nissan car that needs to be fixed, my mental health was f****d (didn't have much to begin with) and a few other things.

My advice to anyone. No one is safe with a thai girl with a relationship. They will try to get as much as you can. In building a house for board members up north or a girls village. Expect to lose as much as you can afford. Or as much as you can walk away.

I will also put a disclaimer on this. Not all girls will do this. There are some good girls out there. Good luck to everyone one with there relationship and building a house. You might be in the same situation. After the house is done. So are you.

[jumnien]

No one is safe in any relationship with anyone. Relationships are spiritual adventures - thanks for your lessons learned!

[sweetchariot]

Wow!

Sounds harsh my friend, and I feel for you. However it also sounds somewhat simplistic.

I don't know you or the girl, and I don't know about your relationship, so I will reserve further comment.

I hope you can get over this and move on, as your last paragraph stated, there are some good ones out there.

Good luck, and keep your chin up.

[Bagwain]

You say that you had the 1st house in a corporation why not the 2nd.

Why was the car not in your or company name?

Ok I can understand the household bits and pieces but stuff me mate, if you had been coming to LOS for this long why did you let your guard down?

I hope many read this and see the pitfalls and have the right protection in place.

Ho Hum our lower brain does get us in to bothers.

[taxexile]

But I did get 300 baht from the recycle guy.

well , at least you walked away with your head held high , your pride intact and it wasnt a complete waste of 7 years .

Edited May 4, 2008 by taxexile

[Larryst]

You say that you had the 1st house in a corporation why not the 2nd.

Why was the car not in your or company name?

Ok I can understand the household bits and pieces but stuff me mate, if you had been coming to LOS for this long why did you let your guard down?

I hope many read this and see the pitfalls and have the right protection in place.

Ho Hum our lower brain does get us in to bothers.

Yes the 1st house was in the corporation. I wanted to make sure things were going fine. After awhile things were going great. So I thought we had a good relationship. That's why I thought it would help things more to move right by her village (big mistake). The influence of her family and especially her mom (greedy Bi-ch) it was too much of a influence.

The car was a 2nd hand vehicle and it seemed too hard to transfer it into the corporation or my name. One good thing is. The engine overheated and the engine block was cracked.

After 7 years. I thought things were going great and I didn't need any protection. My mistake again. But, with her mom telling my girl to finish me (her cousins & nieces told me) I had no choice. Mom's influence takes precedent over anything.

You hit it right on the nail. My lower brain took over common sense.

[kmart]

Hoping you get to marry the teenage nymphomaniac heiress to a brewing fortune in your next life, mate.

[sweetchariot]

All the usual suspects are starting to appear, giving the OP a hard time. If he had just met this girl I would join in, but after 7 years??

How long is long enough to trust someone? I have been living with my g/f for 2 years and trust her implicitly. If you don't let your guard down and start to show a bit of faith in the relationship then it's never going to reach 7 years.

Sounds to me like the OP is a lucid and intelligent guy, who after 7 years had unconditional trust for the girl he was planning to spend the rest of his life with. Then family gets involved and it all turns to custard.

Could all the critics on here maintain an arms length and financially sterile attitude indefinitely? I don't think I could.

[Bagwain]

You say that you had the 1st house in a corporation why not the 2nd.

Why was the car not in your or company name?

Ok I can understand the household bits and pieces but stuff me mate, if you had been coming to LOS for this long why did you let your guard down?

I hope many read this and see the pitfalls and have the right protection in place.

Ho Hum our lower brain does get us in to bothers.

Yes the 1st house was in the corporation. I wanted to make sure things were going fine. After awhile things were going great. So I thought we had a good relationship. That's why I thought it would help things more to move right by her village (big mistake). The influence of her family and especially her mom (greedy Bi-ch) it was too much of a influence.

The car was a 2nd hand vehicle and it seemed too hard to transfer it into the corporation or my name. One good thing is. The engine overheated and the engine block was cracked.

After 7 years. I thought things were going great and I didn't need any protection. My mistake again. But, with her mom telling my girl to finish me (her cousins & nieces told me) I had no choice. Mom's influence takes precedent over anything.

You hit it right on the nail. My lower brain took over common sense.

I too have been ripped off a couple of times but only small in comparison. I know of a few blokes that have had hard times even with the right checks in place. It does happen all over the world though!

Just keep you head high and NEXT!

[jstumbo]

Hoping you get to marry the teenage nymphomaniac heiress to a brewing fortune in your next life, mate.

John McCain's grandaughter?

[taxexile]

Then family gets involved and it all turns to custard.

exactly , a thorough assesment of the partners family members should be a pre requisite here before any relationship goes "serious".

parents and elder siblings run the show. its the thai way. if they are lazy , avaricious or fall on hard times then watch out.

[a2396]

To bad it is not possible to obtain any percentages of how many generous gents lose money in this manner in LOS, via this kind of situation, but I would guess it is quite high. One would think that after 7 years some sort of stability could be counted on in such a relationship, but obviously not so. No doubt this stuff can happen anywhere, but the influence and involvement of family members in such a relationship is very high here, with many women blindly following the dictates of their often very greedy and short-sighted Mothers & other relatives. Such slavish obedience is not usually the case in the Farangs home country and it is easy for a foreign man to get blind-sided by this, if they are not familiar with such behavior. For myself, I would NEVER buy large ticket items, such as houses & cars in someone else's name, at any time.

[Larryst]

I always thought the girls only think about money or anything from day to day. Have a million baht one day and nothing the next day. I think it was probably a long term investment. Normally a guy would think 7 years he would have a little bit of influence in the relationship. But, the influence and the greed of the mother is over powering. I did ask her, if her mom really cares about her. To tell her to go back to work. I also mention about health problems and a few other things. All she said was. I have to do to take care of my family. then I said from that, your mom really doesn't care one thing about you. But, money. When your done working or can not work and have no money. You will be lucky. Because then your mom won't need you any more.

[Dustoff]

It is not unusual to feel a bit off-balance when a trusted partner pulls the rug out from under you. I have had it happen both in relationships and in a partnership with an old and trusted friend. And without a contract of some sort, there is little you can do but walk away only to trust again.

During many years of divorce court mediation, I found it extremely unusual for only one partner to be responsible for causing a relationship to turn sour and that is almost all cases, each easily blamed the other.

It sounds like you had a good run for seven years and suffered negligble losses. Everything is a trade-off and I don't see that you came out a loser other than whatever emotional damage you may suffer. And that is not about trust; it is about the failure of your own expectations.

I have been in my current relationship with a Thai lady for seven years and trust her to be her own individual person.

We married in the States, have joint bank accounts there and here and she has her own cards for full access, I put everything we purchase (house, land, car, motorbikes, chopper) in her name and own absolutely nothing myself but my own clothing.

She is the finest person I have ever known and whatever I have spent is meaningless compared to the love and pleasures and learning she has brought to my life so I stand to lose nothing whatsoever. If I "lost" her, through accident or design, I would be devastated for a while but would wish her all the best and move on, happy for the experience.

Happy trails..

[Briggsy]

Then family gets involved and it all turns to custard.

exactly , a thorough assesment of the partners family members should be a pre requisite here before any relationship goes "serious".

parents and elder siblings run the show. its the thai way. if they are lazy , avaricious or fall on hard times then watch out.

Good post taxexile. I always advocate building up a comprehensive information pack on the family members of prospective girlfriends/wives. Use a private detective if you feel comfortable with that. Speak and meet as many people as you can and note everything down. Then you are more informed and able to make better decisions.

[Larryst]

Your a very lucky man. Like I posted, not all girls are the same (happens all over the world). Trust, respect and love is required in a relationship. But, it takes two for it to happen. My mistake I guess is, I trusted my girl too much. She trusted me. But, she had no respect for me after the house was built and then there is no love.

Time to move on. Just right now I won't ever build another house here in LOS.

It is not unusual to feel a bit off-balance when a trusted partner pulls the rug out from under you. I have had it happen both in relationships and in a partnership with an old and trusted friend. And without a contract of some sort, there is little you can do but walk away only to trust again.

During many years of divorce court mediation, I found it extremely unusual for only one partner to be responsible for causing a relationship to turn sour and that is almost all cases, each easily blamed the other.

It sounds like you had a good run for seven years and suffered negligble losses. Everything is a trade-off and I don't see that you came out a loser other than whatever emotional damage you may suffer. And that is not about trust; it is about the failure of your own expectations.

I have been in my current relationship with a Thai lady for seven years and trust her to be her own individual person.

We married in the States, have joint bank accounts there and here and she has her own cards for full access, I put everything we purchase (house, land, car, motorbikes, chopper) in her name and own absolutely nothing myself but my own clothing.

She is the finest person I have ever known and whatever I have spent is meaningless compared to the love and pleasures and learning she has brought to my life so I stand to lose nothing whatsoever. If I "lost" her, through accident or design, I would be devastated for a while but would wish her all the best and move on, happy for the experience.

Happy trails..

[PrBkkPr]

Do not mean to be a prick.........BUT DID U LOVE HER........by some remarks in your postings, in seems that it was not really a normal love relationship......more like some sort of convenience....u mentioned in your postings......why pay someone who did not want to talk or sleep with you.........I really think that there was some problem in this realtionship from the beginnings.

Whether its a Thai GFirl or Guy or a Farang Girl or Guy or whatever the nationality or race.......relationships have to start on mutual love, respect, trusts and honour .....or else........

I have a relationship with a Northern Thai Guy for the last 7 years and we have been through the worst situations together and also the good times, I have had assets including houses, land and cars plus also bank accounts and deposit boxes,jewelry,etc worth more than US 8 million under his name and yet we have never had a single problem as I know he will always be by my side. ( we are a gay couple but thats besides the point.)

I really feel sorry for what you went through and hope that you will be picking up the pieces and be strong again soon and hope that ypu will find the right person and this time start it on the right foundations.

Best of luck.

[taxexile]

larryst

I always thought the girls only think about money or anything from day to day. Have a million baht one day and nothing the next day. I think it was probably a long term investment. Normally a guy would think 7 years he would have a little bit of influence in the relationship. But, the influence and the greed of the mother is over powering. I did ask her, if her mom really cares about her. To tell her to go back to work. I also mention about health problems and a few other things. All she said was. I have to do to take care of my family. then I said from that, your mom really doesn't care one thing about you. But, money. When your done working or can not work and have no money. You will be lucky. Because then your mom won't need you any more.

i would recommend a reading of Neils Mulders book , "Inside Thai Society" and in particular , the chapter entitled " Holy Mother , Mother Dear , How To Be A Thai Mother " for an insight into , among other things , family relationships and the moral debt that children ( are made to) feel towards their mothers , and how , in what appears to be a male dominated society , it is in fact the women that run show here , and that many men remain boys , a kind of grown up son to their spouses.

mis handling and mis understanding these deeply rooted cultural norms will often result in what to many foreigners seems like irrational behaviour from the woman , but is probably a normal response to a deeply felt hurt or the inadvertent crossing of a culturally forbidden boundary.

[geriatrickid]

It's easy to criticize, but until someone's had to deal with what the OP has faced you can't understand. Lesson learned for me is to always have a competent lawyer on standby and for him/her to review all legal dealings with a Thai.

Edited May 4, 2008 by geriatrickid

[Dustoff]

Good post taxexile. I always advocate building up a comprehensive information pack on the family members of prospective girlfriends/wives. Use a private detective if you feel comfortable with that. Speak and meet as many people as you can and note everything down. Then you are more informed and able to make better decisions.

Now THAT's romance!

[Larryst]

It's easy to criticize, but until someone's had to deal with what the OP has faced you can't understand. Lesson learned for me is to always have a competent lawyer on standby and for him/her to review all legal dealings with a Thai.

Did that route in the beginning with a lawyer. But, I trusted her too much and tried working out a good future between us.

[Heng]

Sounds like the gal was of the type that had some cognitive dissonance about her choice in life partner. Happens between Thais and people of all nationalities as well, but seems particularly common in many Thai-farang partnerships.

The profile is: girl or guy feels there is a stigma to having a relationship with a foreigner (not saying all people feel this way of course) but go against this feeling in exchange or hope for a better life. Once that life is underway however said person -and family- might start comparing the "deal" that they got to what other folks are getting. They feel it wasn't worth it. The thinking is if they have to face the stigma... they should be living on easy street, not the same street with better appliances and building materials. They start becoming discontent/sometimes depressed and simply want out.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Heng

[villagefarang]

It is not unusual to feel a bit off-balance when a trusted partner pulls the rug out from under you. I have had it happen both in relationships and in a partnership with an old and trusted friend. And without a contract of some sort, there is little you can do but walk away only to trust again.

During many years of divorce court mediation, I found it extremely unusual for only one partner to be responsible for causing a relationship to turn sour and that is almost all cases, each easily blamed the other.

It sounds like you had a good run for seven years and suffered negligble losses. Everything is a trade-off and I don't see that you came out a loser other than whatever emotional damage you may suffer. And that is not about trust; it is about the failure of your own expectations.

I have been in my current relationship with a Thai lady for seven years and trust her to be her own individual person.

We married in the States, have joint bank accounts there and here and she has her own cards for full access, I put everything we purchase (house, land, car, motorbikes, chopper) in her name and own absolutely nothing myself but my own clothing.

She is the finest person I have ever known and whatever I have spent is meaningless compared to the love and pleasures and learning she has brought to my life so I stand to lose nothing whatsoever. If I "lost" her, through accident or design, I would be devastated for a while but would wish her all the best and move on, happy for the experience.

Happy trails..

Wow, I'm impressed. Good insights and attitude. A man I can actually agree with.

[Pepe']

I posted this in the Real Estate Section. But, I would like everyone to know. This can happen to anyione. Things do change drastically.

Here's my experience on relationship with a livein and building a house and having a future.

I knew a TG for over 7 years. I lived with her for over 4 years, been with her for 3 years on my trips to LOS. When I decided to move to Thailand in February 2004 things were great with her. After about 10 months or so I decided to sell my condo in Jomtein (big mistake). So we decided to move up north by her home in the Phetchabun area. We built a excellent nice bungalow. Had everything there. Granite flooring countertops, satellite, all new furnishings for the house. The area was building up so there was a few things for farangs to do. I was leary on building a house in a TG's name so I had it put in a corporation. Then about a 1 1/2 years later my livein mentioned she had some land. We could build a house on it, cheaper and save some money from the sale of the house, I had built. I figured things were great and had no problems. So I sold the house and her relatives built a house. They did a horseshit job on building it. But, I hired a thai guy to come in and replace and fix the fuc_kups on the builders they did. So things were great. Life was good so far. Then about a 1/1/2 later she started getting moody. In January 2008 she started giving me the silent treatment. After a bit, I asked what's the problem. The response is "Nothing". So after 2 months or more of the cold treatment and her comng to bed at 1, 2 or 3 in the morning and being a starfish. I started getting mad. I was giving her around 7,000 or 8,000 baht a month. Which is good for up there. Since the average thai joe makes about 4,000 a month. So I told her, I don't give any money to someone I don't talk to and money to someone who doesn't want to come to bed. I kept asking her all the time. What is the problem and we could work things out. Still she would say nothing or just ignore me and walk away. So around April 1st. I didn't give her money. Then things really went bad. So I decided to move out. I had to get my stuff out of there. So a friend that lived by me bought some of the larger items and helped me get a truck to get out of there. When he was going to get the stuff. There was a problem. Even with receipts in my name for the beds, satellite, water tank pump, TV, tables, refrigerator, washer and other things. They are not mine. Because it's in her house. I finally worked out a deal with her. So I could sell the things. So I would have some cash to get the <deleted> out of the village. In the process on the day my friend and his wife came to pickup the stuff she brought a long a policeman to fill out a list of the things I could take. My girl had to sign it. Otherwise, if she didn't sign it. I couldn't sell it and I could not take anything. While signing, her mom was there and her mom was giving problems. Telling my girl what to do. So on that day most of the larger things were sold & my things I wanted were packed up in a pickup to move to Pattaya.

Finally I got a little response from the girl as to what the problem is. Her mom was finishing her thai boyfriend and she needed a place to live. So it's easier to give me the boot and let her mom have the house. Since her mom has the house, my girl is now in BKK working with her sister. I told her why she didn't tell me this before. If she needed more cash I could give her more and we could have worked out things between us. There was no working out. Her mom wanted the house, more money and everything. I told her I could give more money to her so she could give it to her mom. Her 2 sisters could give some to her mom and her useless brother could send some money to her mom. But, no way. I am a farang so her sisters and brother don't have to. I think her mom has told her 2 daughters to also finish there thai husbands. So she could get more money.

Here is a good example or two on how f****n bullshit before the move. I was cleaning up the house because I knew I was leaving. So I seen a recycling guy in a truck to stop by. Take the plastic (a lot of Pepsi Max bottles), scrap steel that sat by the house for 8 months and some empty coffee cans from the states that was in a cupboard for over a year. Her mom seen them come by and she flipped out. My girl came and said why are you selling now. I just said I was cleaning things up so it wouldn't look like junk around there. Her mom was still mad. But I did get 300 baht from the recycle guy. I was also told my girl and her mom took my motorbike to a motorcycle shop to see what they could get. Good thing my bike was in my name. She couldn't sell it.

So after everything is done & over. Seven years with a girl you have been with. Who you think really loves you and trust. Will give you the walking papers in a flash of a eye. Or her mom tells her daughter to finish you immediately. I lose a house approximately 600,000 to 700,000 baht, a Nissan car that needs to be fixed, my mental health was f****d (didn't have much to begin with) and a few other things.

My advice to anyone. No one is safe with a thai girl with a relationship. They will try to get as much as you can. In building a house for board members up north or a girls village. Expect to lose as much as you can afford. Or as much as you can walk away.

I will also put a disclaimer on this. Not all girls will do this. There are some good girls out there. Good luck to everyone one with there relationship and building a house. You might be in the same situation. After the house is done. So are you.

-----------

Sorry to hear about your plight. Really, I can relate.

However take a number, there is a long line forming.

I would like to make a few comments about Thai women but don't want a vacation right now so use your imagination.

Again very sorry to hear about this. Trust me, things will get better now that she's out of your life.

I know...

[tijnebijn]

Sounds like the gal was of the type that had some cognitive dissonance about her choice in life partner. Happens between Thais and people of all nationalities as well, but seems particularly common in many Thai-farang partnerships.

The profile is: girl or guy feels there is a stigma to having a relationship with a foreigner (not saying all people feel this way of course) but go against this feeling in exchange or hope for a better life. Once that life is underway however said person -and family- might start comparing the "deal" that they got to what other folks are getting. They feel it wasn't worth it. The thinking is if they have to face the stigma... they should be living on easy street, not the same street with better appliances and building materials. They start becoming discontent/sometimes depressed and simply want out.

Very good post ! Those women have a lot of issues .

Hard time expressing themselves , seems like they always have moods ,

and don't really now and care why they have it , when this starts things could go worse .

A lot of it depends on how much they let themselves influence from outside or not , if not so

much the relationship could work , so long they choose to actually express themselves and

find some answers for their emotional issues . Think a lot of people got this experience with Thai ladies.

Its hard work to let it work and many are not so lucky , but the lucky ones also have similar issues .

What is it with those individuals , I found out hiso or loso are not very different in mood swings . I'm

not a psychologist but it really is pretty odd indeed .

[onnut]

wow guys, I cant relate to any of this!

my wife of 3 years, been together nearly 5, is always happy. she is never in a bad mood even at that time of month. always has a smile for anyone that she comes across, even when she was pregnant, no problems. where do you guys meet your women?

My wifes family come by all the time, specially because we just had a baby, and there is no problems.

there are good ones out there, you just gotta look in another place.

[koheesti]

..., I have had assets including houses, land and cars plus also bank accounts and deposit boxes,jewelry,etc worth more than US 8 million under his name ...

Why on Earth would anyone do this? Eight million bucks is a helluva lot of money to put in anyone else's name. Even back home people don't just sign everything over to someone else. Wow.

[Larryst]

No offense on your comment. Yes I did love her. I was willing to stay with her forever in the village and do anything for her. It's not paying her for talking too or sleeping with. You can get that anywhere in LOS. The money I gave her was spending money. So she could do what ever she wanted to do with it or give it to her family. No problems before. Until the house built in the village was done and her mom's interference.

Do not mean to be a prick.........BUT DID U LOVE HER........by some remarks in your postings, in seems that it was not really a normal love relationship......more like some sort of convenience....u mentioned in your postings......why pay someone who did not want to talk or sleep with you.........I really think that there was some problem in this realtionship from the beginnings.

[jonniebkk]

Here's my experience on relationship with a livein and building a house and having a future. I knew a TG for over 7 years..

In many businesses where trust is important, there is something called the "know your customer" rule. In Thailand, we have the "know your b!tch rule."

[burman]

We married in the States, have joint bank accounts there and here and she has her own cards for full access, I put everything we purchase (house, land, car, motorbikes, chopper) in her name and own absolutely nothing myself but my own clothing.

But, why is everything in her name? Any particular reason you don't have joint ownership of all your worldly goods?