wilko Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (edited) ...............you might want to look at this report by "CARE FOR THE WILD INTERNATIONAL" Tiger Temple - abuse ...."CWI's Chief Executive Dr Barbara Maas says, "The Temple's popularity is based around claims that its tigers were rescued from poachers and move freely and peacefully amongst the temple's monks, who are actively engaged in conservation work. But this utopian façade hides a sinister reality of unbridled violence and illegal trafficking of tigers between Thailand and Laos." Edited June 21, 2008 by Reimar correct the name of Kanchanaburi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshawk Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 thanks for that.. Hmm.. i've always been suspicious of this 'most revered' location. 'facade' & 'sinister reality' are often on my mind when i'm thinking of such places Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tod Daniels Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I found the report was concisely written, well documented, and called to light several animal health issues as well as some international issues of trade between countries in tigers, the legality of the Tiger Temple to even be allowed to breed their tigers, and many of the animal management practices. Unfortunately given this is the glorious "Land 'O Thais", and given the extreme deferential treatment and emphasis the locals put on their buddhist monks; it is unlikely anyone other than 'first worlders' with an interest would even bat an eye at the allegations no matter how well documented. While I have gone to the Tiger Temple more than 7 or 8 times since living here, it is far from the worst "animal attraction" in this pissant country. I am NOT condoning the actions of the Tiger Temple with that statement only making an observation. IF you can routinely buy CITES (for the ignorant that is the; Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) Appendices I, II and III at จตุจักร spelled in english as either Chatuchuk, or Jatujak Weekend Market, just how serious is the country in protecting, governing or enforcing the trade in animals? I would say the "Land 'O Thais" in reality is not that serious at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 (edited) Thanks for posting this Wilko! The same article was posted in Thorn Tree and the usual personal insults and profanities were directed at the poster. It seems like no amount of proof is ever going to be enough for some fans of this horrible place. I seriously doubt that Care for the Wild International would put their reputation and status on the line unless they had solid evidence to back their claims. The videos were disturbing and it is obvious that these poor tiger are scared. I can only imagine what these tough guy animal handlers do when there aren't hordes of unenlightened tourist walking around. On the other hand, there are tourists in the area when they yank the tigers tails and squirt urine in their faces. I guess that's acceptable to some people... anything that allows them to get a photo with a tiger. I find it repulsive and pathetic. CITES should seriously reconsider allowing Thailand to play with their standards and practices. It's making them look bad. Edited June 21, 2008 by Galong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaifan2 Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Wilko ,have you been to see for yourself ? Don't be passing on false accusations .The Tigers i saw looked very well looked after .People should go and make up their own mind . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Wilko ,have you been to see for yourself ? Don't be passing on false accusations .The Tigers i saw looked very well looked after .People should go and make up their own mind . I have witnessed the abuse myself first hand and indeed I made reports to the CWI and other animal rights groups - also writing to the Lonely Planet to request that they do not include the tiger temple in their guides. If you dig around you'll also find I wrote to the national press, and publications including Bangkok Metro. So fire away, what are these 'False Accusations' you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Wilko ,have you been to see for yourself ? Don't be passing on false accusations .The Tigers i saw looked very well looked after .People should go and make up their own mind . Why? Are you suggesting that none of the videos or photos or testimonials from volunteers don't count? Does someone, for example, have to go to a Michael Vick dog fight before that person can make a judgment call on whether or not it's cruel? "Passing on false accusations"? Wilko is passing on perfectly good information that was provided by a reputable international wildlife conservation/protection organization. You said the tigers, "...looked very well looked after." Um, the videos prove otherwise as do the accusation/condemnations in the article. Are you an authority on animal behavior and if not, would you really know what a physically and mentally abused tiger looks like? National Geographic reported this too. Are suggesting that both organizations are simply making all of this up? Come on man, there is enough evidence to put this place out of 'business'. They're trading in an endangered species and they don't have a license to do what they're doing. Should the authorities not inspect this place just because it's a temple? Honestly, I don't see where you have an leg to stand on. I guess you're simply one of those who thinks that this place can do anything that they want because you enjoyed going there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw25rw Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Wouldn't surprise me at all if some tigers are sold at maturity as it would be hard for the temple to house all of the cubs they raise. And I wouldn't be that surprised if some of them end up in China as a result. However, I'm not that inclined to trust the word of CWI as being more than heresay. They're not a major organisation like WWF with a reputation to protect. In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. However, they are an offshoot of the League Against Cruel Sports so I believe their heart is in the right place, but not that they wouldn't distort the truth to suit their agenda. I'd want to see some actual evidence rather than what little they have presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tod Daniels Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 They're not a major organisation like WWF with a reputation to protect. In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. I'd want to see some actual evidence rather than what little they have presented. I wouldn't be so quick to base an opinion on an open source internet site which has NO vetting and is built by anonomyous contributors as the mark by which to gauge the integrity of an organization or to glean information. ANY wiki page can be edited with ANY information, showing up a millisecond later on the site. Did you bother to Google; 'Care for the Wild International' or look at their site? Try it... Here's the You Tube videos they took at the Tiger Temple in Sai-Yok http://youtube.com/user/tigerpolice In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. That quote has got to be the funniest thing I've read on the internet in a long time. .. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw25rw Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 They're not a major organisation like WWF with a reputation to protect. In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. I'd want to see some actual evidence rather than what little they have presented. I wouldn't be so quick to base an opinion on an open source internet site which has NO vetting and is built by anonomyous contributors as the mark by which to gauge the integrity of an organization or to glean information. ANY wiki page can be edited with ANY information, showing up a millisecond later on the site. Did you bother to Google; 'Care for the Wild International' or look at their site? Try it... Here's the You Tube videos they took at the Tiger Temple in Sai-Yok http://youtube.com/user/tigerpolice In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. That quote has got to be the funniest thing I've read on the internet in a long time. .. .... Well actually, I did google search and saw nothing to change my mind that they are small time. I did see those videos and though the place doesn't meet any modern western standard, they are pretty flimsy evidence of cruelty. I stand by my comment about wikipedia. If you find that amusing, well let's just say the contempt is reciprocated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshawk Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. That quote has got to be the funniest thing I've read on the internet in a long time. .. .... I have to agree there.. having a wiki entry is irrelevent and in no way adds credibility (or not) to anyone or anything... The Tiger Temple is a disgrace and the truth will emerge.. meanwhile, take a look at this discussion of cruelty at Kanchanaburi and this National Geographic Kanchanaburi Report (this organisation does have a wiki entry ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw25rw Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 In fact they don't even have a wikipedia entry. That quote has got to be the funniest thing I've read on the internet in a long time. .. .... I have to agree there.. having a wiki entry is irrelevent and in no way adds credibility (or not) to anyone or anything... The Tiger Temple is a disgrace and the truth will emerge.. meanwhile, take a look at this discussion of cruelty at Kanchanaburi and this National Geographic Kanchanaburi Report (this organisation does have a wiki entry ) Not many "international" organisations aren't made reference to in wikipedia. The NG entry is a discussion about the CWI article rather than offering anything new. The temple's standards would be unacceptable in the Western model of modern zookeeping, but the complaints abount cruelty are unproven in my eyes. And considering the option is probably the destruction of the tigers, I can live with it. Also, I can't see how the place could possibly accommodate 8-900 visitors a day. The day I was there there were maybe 40-50 people and we had to wait ages in the line to have photos taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waza Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I have been twice, my only concern was that maybe the Tigers were drugged to make them more passive. Nor do I see any evidence in these links to show the tigers are systematically abused, or that the monks and their temple are a front for a tiger smuggling ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nignoy Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 We have been regular visitors to the tiger temple over the last 10 years, I first learned of this place many years ago before I retired and was still working with zoo,s and wildlife.I am even guilty of taking blind friends from UK there, so they could get down and dirty with the tigers , andI think the close contact with the tigers was an experience they will never forget!!But looking at their code of practise over the years and they do have one lol, it is abysmal, ill treatment , cross border trading of protected species, even cruelty, but what do you expect its a 3rd world country where money talks!!But it happens in zoo,s all over the world, money can get you anything.A so called world class zoo in germany that has more species in its Coolrooms than it has on display and where every animal that is on display is also for sale alive or dead what ever your heart desires!!Take a look at Smuggled.com , plenty of genuine information there that make the Tiger Temple look like a rest home,I dont support what goes on in the Tiger Temple in anyway, but when you have seen baby Orangs, smuggled in cases with machine parts, Falconidae with their eyes stitched or superglued shut,or babychimps and Bonobo,s sedated and stuffed inside carseats, the tiger temple does notseem so bad!!the afor mentioned cases were all recent in western europe, but it happens everywhere, we have been fighting against socalled civilised govt,s for decades, nowadays Name and Shame seems to work well , but there are still quite afew big traders who are Teflon coated, Sorry for the Rant but I tend to get on my soap box as far as wildlife protection is concerned Nignoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshawk Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 The NG entry is a discussion about the CWI article rather than offering anything new. don't think you read it properly.. the complaints abount cruelty are unproven in my eyes lead a horse to water.. only see's what he wants.. considering the option is probably the destruction of the tigers, I can live with it. hardly, this place is breeding hybrids.. useless for conservation The day I was there there were maybe 40-50 people and we had to wait ages in the line to have photos taken. worth the wait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tw25rw Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 The NG entry is a discussion about the CWI article rather than offering anything new. don't think you read it properly.. the complaints abount cruelty are unproven in my eyes lead a horse to water.. only see's what he wants.. considering the option is probably the destruction of the tigers, I can live with it. hardly, this place is breeding hybrids.. useless for conservation The day I was there there were maybe 40-50 people and we had to wait ages in the line to have photos taken. worth the wait? I think the complaint about the pens is fair and the enclosed wilderness is taking a long time to construct. I suspect that there is no urgency as it will mean changeing the way the place operates/is funded. Calling pushing the tigers around cruelty is weak. Being cats, they are stubborn and don't take orders. Being 200kg+ tigers means they are tough and see it as little more than an annoyance. Inflict actual pain on them and they won't just take it. As for squirting them, I don't know where the idea that it's urine comes from, but I know that zoo keepers have to have a way of distracting them when they are setting into stalk/pounce mode. Whenever I show people pics/vids, they always jump to the conclusion that they are drugged/declawed or otherwise disarmed. This has no apparent foundation but still is used against the temple as fact. Hybrids seems to be an assumption based on their not being part of the international breeding program. I believe they have one Bengal, but don't know if it has bred or how they obtained it. Inbreeding is a more likely problem and may be why thet have (allegedly) traded with this place in Laos. The others are believed to be of a single subspecies AFAIK. I don't believe they will ever be returned to the wild. Nowhere safe for them. Unfortunately, captivity is the likely future of the tiger. Worth it? I waited a long time - years - to get there, so would have liked it to have been better in some ways, but was happy overall. Their fate could/would have been much worse. I have deliberately not been to the place in Sri Racha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goshawk Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 I have deliberately not been to the place in Sri Racha. They are all the same my blind friend, places to avoid.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDrSomkid Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 This is quite shocking! I was at the Tiger Temple in May 2006. I saw none of this alledged abuse. I might have been taken in by the NG docus, but I did not really see anything that I would consider inappropriate. The cages were small and Saengtawan is in a cage when the touros are there since she apparently is not suitable to be around large groups. I enjoyed it very much, but it was certainly touristy and busy. Groups of about 50. I have heard people say that the tigers are drugged, but we were informed that they only lead the tigers down to the gorge after they have been fed. Acharn Poosit led one of the large ones himself and there was no prodding or pulling on the chain. The tiger was maybe 3 times his weight. The tiger was curious of its surroundings and was smelling objects it came across. It was dam_n hot that day and at 2PM that gorge it was very hot. And the tigers were panting in the shade. The adolecents were playing in the pool down the end. Clearly not drugged. But were too playful for interaction with the touros. I am very sad if these accusations are true. I can understand if they trade with some place in Laos in order to mix up the bloodlines in order to avoid inbreeding. Lats time I checked, they had 17 tigers, Heard rumours of now being 23? This place must be doing some good, chai mai? They have finished the Tiger Island/Park by now I think. That must be something. And the squirting on the tigers with some fluid, THAT's abuse? Squirting someone with a watergun is hardly abuse. Tigers like water. And hitting a 200kg+ tiger without repercusions? yeah right. I dont understand it. I really hope the CWI is wrong or overreacting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 And the squirting on the tigers with some fluid, THAT's abuse? Squirting someone with a watergun is hardly abuse. Tigers like water.And hitting a 200kg+ tiger without repercusions? yeah right. I dont understand it. I really hope the CWI is wrong or overreacting. Yes, you really don't understand. It's not fluid, it's urine and this is not merely cooling them down. If you can read or if you bothered to read the whole story, urine is used to show dominance and control. "hitting a 200+ KG" tiger that is chained down is cowardly. LOOK AT THE VIDEOS! Of course if someone was to do that to a tiger that wasn't in a constant state of fear there would be severe repercussions... duh. Again, this place is illegally trading an endangered species!!! And, they are breeding an endangered species without a license!!! So, even if you don't agree that pulling a tiger by the tail, smacking them, spraying urine in their faces, etc is abuse, they are still breaking INTERNATIONAL WILDLIFE LAW! If something isn't done about this place, more temples can start doing the same thing. There's already a new tiger and crocodile amusement park in Phuket. I'm sure more will follow especially if foreign tourists obviously don't care.... geez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Calling pushing the tigers around cruelty is weak. Being cats, they are stubborn and don't take orders. Being 200kg+ tigers means they are tough and see it as little more than an annoyance. Inflict actual pain on them and they won't just take it. As for squirting them, I don't know where the idea that it's urine comes from, but I know that zoo keepers have to have a way of distracting them when they are setting into stalk/pounce mode. There have been accounts of beatings seen by volunteers and other visitors. In one of the videos a handler walks up behind a tiger and smacks the tiger in the back of the head. Oh, but you say that's "little more than an annoyance" so it's justifiable? Care for the Wild says that they use metal rods to strike the tigers. Videos show abuse, volunteers talk about witnessing physical abuse, tourists verify abuse... this is enough to make one think it is not all just rumor. I suggest that you also look at this same thread in Thorn Tree forum. Tell us please, what would YOU consider abuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 On the other hand, there are tourists in the area when they yank the tigers tails and squirt urine in their faces. I guess that's acceptable to some people... anything that allows them to get a photo with a tiger. I find it repulsive and pathetic.CITES should seriously reconsider allowing Thailand to play with their standards and practices. It's making them look bad. Are you sure you were watching the right VDO ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Yes, you really don't understand. It's not fluid, it's urine and this is not merely cooling them down. If you can read or if you bothered to read the whole story, urine is used to show dominance and control. "Urine is used to show dominance and control" If I am in the company of tigers, I prefer to be with someone who is in control.You would prefer they use a cattle prod or some electric baton like your avatar? If urine is what tigers use to establish social order in the wild, at least these people do it the "natural" way. What experience do you have working with animals ? I don't defend this place, but some ill informed comments are no help for the cause you defend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Are you sure you were watching the right VDO ??? Yes, of course I've watched all of the videos. I read everything I can find about this place and any other place that keeps wild animals captive because I care deeply about this subject. Watch this video in case you didn't notice any of them with abuse going on. I suggest that you download the PDF file and read it carefully. Much of this abuse and mistreatment is done merely so the unenlightened tourists can get their photos taken with a tiger and so tourists can play with tigers. This is not natural and not fair to the tigers. Is all of this suffering really worth it? If the monks were truly interested in the tigers they'd give them more room to live in, more shade, better food and they wouldn't beat them. This is a money-making scam pure and simple and their trading of endangered species is highly illegal if not grossly unethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 (edited) "Urine is used to show dominance and control" If I am in the company of tigers, I prefer to be with someone who is in control.You would prefer they use a cattle prod or some electric baton like your avatar? If urine is what tigers use to establish social order in the wild, at least these people do it the "natural" way. What experience do you have working with animals ?I don't defend this place, but some ill informed comments are no help for the cause you defend. Well, animal behaviorists feel like urine in the face is serious whether you do or not. No, what I'd rather see is the tigers separated from tourists! All of this abuse is just so TOURISTS can get their photos taken with animals that should be left alone!!! I'm an animal lover and I put animal welfare ahead of tourists desires. I have a degree in biology and I've studied animal behavior all of my life. I'm well-read on the subject. My avatar was of a cartoon character named Cartman from South Park, it is not an image of me. I don't own a baton... but thanks for noticing. I just changed it so folks like you don't confuse cartoon characters with reality. Edited June 22, 2008 by Galong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierrot Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 No, what I'd rather see is the tigers separated from tourists! All of this abuse is just so TOURISTS can get their photos taken with animals that should be left alone!!! I'm an animal lover and I put animal welfare ahead of tourists desires. Who can disagree with that. But is it really realistic ? Some would argue that a well managed trade is actually more profitable for endangered species. Without tourist money, how many zoo would be able to invest in research for the preservation of "wild" life. Also if local population can see an advantage of preserving the animals they're leaving with, they will probably take more care of them rather than killing them for short term profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galong Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 No, what I'd rather see is the tigers separated from tourists! All of this abuse is just so TOURISTS can get their photos taken with animals that should be left alone!!! I'm an animal lover and I put animal welfare ahead of tourists desires. Who can disagree with that. But is it really realistic ? Some would argue that a well managed trade is actually more profitable for endangered species. Without tourist money, how many zoo would be able to invest in research for the preservation of "wild" life. Also if local population can see an advantage of preserving the animals they're leaving with, they will probably take more care of them rather than killing them for short term profit. Cheers Peirrot... I agree with what you're saying at least to some degree. I don't think the "well managed" bit will work in Thailand, because deep down I seriously doubt that they have the same ideals when it comes to preserving wildlife. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of Thais who do deeply care, but when money comes into play and when there are offers of big money from China and elsewhere, how long will most hold firm to their ethical stance? I don't hold the same fatalistic view that the best way to save wildlife is to throw them all into cages and breed them in captivity. If some of the huge amount of money generated from this place, for example, was put into both habitat protection and a properly armed organization of rangers, perhaps the tigers could live a natural life... without being tugged, punched, kicked, sprayed with urine, etc. I do think that we're all on the same page as far as wanting to see these magnificent predators protected... it's just that some of us trust the monks and others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 The tigers are fine, they are tigers, they need abit of a kick up the back side to toughen up abit. When I was there I was going to give the big tiger a spinning bird kick but I was just too scared to do it. Maybe next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffer Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 It's nice to see CWI have a sanctuary just waiting to house all the temple tigers... and then for only £24.95 a year there will be lots more tigers to sponsor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 (edited) It's amaizing how effective Saffron Tinted Sunglasses are at blinding the wearer to the abuse, illegal activities and downright lies. -- But then of course if we have a campaign to put an end to one form of abuse in Thailand there is a danger that other forms of abuse might come under threat.... and we can't have that can we?! Edited June 22, 2008 by GuestHouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDrSomkid Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 The tigers are fine, they are tigers, they need abit of a kick up the back side to toughen up abit. When I was there I was going to give the big tiger a spinning bird kick but I was just too scared to do it.Maybe next time Hey its Guido Hatzis! Do you still burn your shoulder on the ceiling light when you turn over in bed? How's the plumbing job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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