PCA

In essence your are a chartist, that takes years of experience and a mathematical mind, my guess.

But nevertheless my question= what is a good information source on Asia? I am a recent fan of SeekingAlpha, I need a product , charts are not haptic enough. SeekingAlpha covers Asia too, but I wonder if it has enough indigenous touch? But perhaps i should be content with that, I am not dealing and wheeling.

I don't see much mathematics involved there (some important in the options markets though). I apply maths end of the week, month, ... counting the money I've made. Maths is limiting your views about changes.

I don't know what Seekingalpha is and also I rarely touch Asian markets except for sometimes. Having sold a thai ETF a few days ago and eyeing on Japan now monitoring some funds and hedging opportunities.

Re the question what is a good information source on Asia, the usual suspects come up: FT, WSJ, SCMP, Bloomberg, CNBC. aastocks.com good for Hang Seng.

I would like to trade thai stocks as I see they have very nice trends and swings but all over the years I have not found a firm to trade with. I remember that you mentioned a broker which seems to be leading or big enough but don't know the name anymore. Also I didn't find any reasonable charting tools except this one: http://siamchart.com/stock-chart/ADVANC/

Seems ok but then the brokers, pfffff.

for example if the broker got the order filled and likes it as much as you do while he knows there is no more price following or he can just using the spread to make a quick profit scalp in case he sees opportunity and then places the order again. The difference of knowing it is if you get a confirming ticket from your broker or from the exchange. Now that niche of cheating is very unlikely to happen if you self direct trades via a trading platform having realtime quotes but more likely possible if you do not have rt quotes and dealing via phone. If you deal via phone you can limit the chance of getting cheated in such a way by using a GTC (good til cancelled) order instead of an order which expires end of day or is valid for another specified time.

Hope you don't want to learn cheating:P

I still do not see how any cheating can occur in the example I gave. You are talking in generalities. Price is 10, order is purchase at 9 and price continues to drop to 8 and 7. Whether with broker or online your order is filled. What do you mean 'he knows there is no more price following'? He doesn't know that at all.

well, I do talk out of experience while you basically talk generalities with this.

Clearly not on this example you cannot and vague appeals to 'experience' cuts no ice on this one.

ok

In essence your are a chartist, that takes years of experience and a mathematical mind, my guess.

But nevertheless my question= what is a good information source on Asia? I am a recent fan of SeekingAlpha, I need a product , charts are not haptic enough. SeekingAlpha covers Asia too, but I wonder if it has enough indigenous touch? But perhaps i should be content with that, I am not dealing and wheeling.

I don't see much mathematics involved there (some important in the options markets though). I apply maths end of the week, month, ... counting the money I've made. Maths is limiting your views about changes.

I don't know what Seekingalpha is and also I rarely touch Asian markets except for sometimes. Having sold a thai ETF a few days ago and eyeing on Japan now monitoring some funds and hedging opportunities.

PAC, any of your unspoken experiences is proven by= manipulation of Silver/Gold http://goo.gl/oduMr Really innocent? Manipulation of Libor, we all know about, suspected manipulation of oil prices http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-27/oil-price-manipulation-may-affect-millions-eu-official-says.html. The unexplored power of Bloomberg terminals, what do we know about how carefully news is worded, giving the message a more or less dramatic undertone, hidden codes causing vast movements??

price manipulation was always there and wil stay. The ways how it has been carried out have changed. Nevertheless something what everybody participating in the markets out of whatever reason has to learn living with. I do for example not read anymore else than price charts and a bit of volume changes in order to plan a trade or investment. No news or rumors and everything else that can potentially interfere with what I see in front of my nose. So when I take action and I see myself confirmed to a tendency in price change I might do some additional research if it makes sense but only if I want to improve a plan that I have clearly worked out before.

Definitely Libor is a hot topic to discuss manipulation on the largest scale in banking - not my cup of tea so to speak. Gold, Oil well not really important to me personally. Both are sentimental markets, one treated and marketed as an essential commodity which it isn't and the other one treated the same while selling the illusion that it will help you later when nothing else is there.

Regardless there are still many ways to make money in the markets by learning to swim not in front of the sharks mouth. Survive first and prosper later. Also of course with Gold and Oil.

An easy do it yourself way is as follows:

Buy a 1 baht gold block in a reputable shop.

Buy a micro scale.

Weigh the block you bought and make sure it is the correct weight.

Next you go to a neighboring shop and sell the block to them.

You should get about 100 baht less then you paid for it (if gold price is still the same).

If they are willing to buy it excuse yourself and tell them you changed your mind.

Next step is to make your own measurement tool.

For that you need a piece of metal strip like a metal ruler. 15-20cm length should be enough.

Then make a slit in it that will allow the block to pass with the smallest clearance possible.

This will be used to confirm its width.

Then make a few notches to mark its height and width.

Then glue a triangular shaped piece on the bottom, somewhere 40% from one side so that the ruler becomes a 'scale'.

Place your block on the short side.

Make sure that you add some ridge so that the block can be placed on the exact same spot.

Put a 1 baht coin on the other side.

Move the coin until the ruler balances on its pivot point. The use some glue to fix the coin in place.

After gluing make sure it is still balanced and if not glue some small pieces of material on the lighter side to balance it again.

This 'tool' will measure width, height, thickness and weight. Margin of error with so many measuring points is incredible small.

Then after you have played with your bits of metal and glue and have proudly conveyed your gold bullion back home don't forget to store and hide your worldly goods in a little box somewhere in your Thailand apartment where nobody will find it... So much safer than holding it in a bank. And that is where your paranoia has led you. Up to you chaps!

Well there is something else and that's the exit of a deal. The most important in the end. So if using this example Gold or whatever has been purchased then the smartest way to walk is monitoring whether there is a way to as well get rid of it (optimally by having profited comparatevely). Sticking to reality sharply and not dreaming about counting chickens before risk is covered. Just business essentials...

Check for the letters L I N D T stamped on the upside.

hahaha, I didn't grabe it on the first read.

Cheers to the laugh

Jusme - not sure the ladies will pay much for me,but can give it a go, always fancied myself as a gigolo. Does one require a website or should I just strut my stuff in a Borat type mankini?

But seriously

I read about this chap in the States who outsourced his work to China, and got multiple promotiions, I guess this is the way to go.

not all oil and gas is offshore, and it seems working for others is not the way to make millions. Also overtime and weekends does not fall under the umbrella of working less...........

I may set myself up as a life manager/coach, and charge people money for advice on financial freedom and how to work less earn more, however a quick google shows a lot of people already cover that market.....

but then how can a personal failure succeed in teaching others how to make it better?

for example if the broker got the order filled and likes it as much as you do while he knows there is no more price following or he can just using the spread to make a quick profit scalp in case he sees opportunity and then places the order again. The difference of knowing it is if you get a confirming ticket from your broker or from the exchange. Now that niche of cheating is very unlikely to happen if you self direct trades via a trading platform having realtime quotes but more likely possible if you do not have rt quotes and dealing via phone. If you deal via phone you can limit the chance of getting cheated in such a way by using a GTC (good til cancelled) order instead of an order which expires end of day or is valid for another specified time.

Hope you don't want to learn cheating:P

I still do not see how any cheating can occur in the example I gave. You are talking in generalities. Price is 10, order is purchase at 9 and price continues to drop to 8 and 7. Whether with broker or online your order is filled. What do you mean 'he knows there is no more price following'? He doesn't know that at all.

well, I do talk out of experience while you basically talk generalities with this.

yes in case price and size matches your order. If only price does you might get a partly fill only.

Surely if the price drops to 9 and your order could not be fully met then the price stops dropping.

yes (or your broker tries to cheat you - again:) )

How might a broker do that as per this example?

for example if the broker got the order filled and likes it as much as you do while he knows there is no more price following or he can just using the spread to make a quick profit scalp in case he sees opportunity and then places the order again. The difference of knowing it is if you get a confirming ticket from your broker or from the exchange. Now that niche of cheating is very unlikely to happen if you self direct trades via a trading platform having realtime quotes but more likely possible if you do not have rt quotes and dealing via phone. If you deal via phone you can limit the chance of getting cheated in such a way by using a GTC (good til cancelled) order instead of an order which expires end of day or is valid for another specified time.

Hope you don't want to learn cheating

yes in case price and size matches your order. If only price does you might get a partly fill only.

Surely if the price drops to 9 and your order could not be fully met then the price stops dropping.

yes (or your broker tries to cheat you - again )

I am not sure what the problem is. If the price is say 10 and I issue an order to buy at 9, then if the price hits 9 my order will be executed when it hits 9 even if the price then continues to drop further till 8,7 and so on.

theoretically yes, practically not necessarily.

If the price is dropping on a liquid stock and the buy order is of 'normal' quantity then yes it will.

yes in case price and size matches your order. If only price does you might get a partly fill only.

What happens actually between the time my limit order is placed and final confirmation of the stock purchase? The case= I called my bank, gave order to buy x at limit 10,30. She gave it into her screen, came back to me a couple of times= still not filled. I called back after 15 min , order was confirmed at 10,23. What happened in those minutes. How does the precise matching at 10,23 work? Could have been lower or at my limit.

It could basically be lower. You will get a ticket confirming the transaction. It will either be a tickit issued by your broker or issued by the stock exchange. If it is issued by the exchange you have what you wanted and have to accept this. If it is issued by the broker and it matches your limit price as well you have what you wanted and probably have to accept it. If at the exchange for example there would have been a better price available (for example when the market would have opened at a much better price than you specified in the limit price you still would have no right to claim compensation or a better fill towards your broker since you have already agreed and signed terms and conditions (including price making). If not you would not have qualified to open the account for its particular purpose in the first place.

I could write a book alone about this as having experienced a lot of ridiculous things with clearing order fills. In short the fewer people sit between yourself and the exchange directly the more transparent everything becomes. While I still get screwed:P but have negotiated myself into a commission scheme which most others don't have.

I am not sure what the problem is. If the price is say 10 and I issue an order to buy at 9, then if the price hits 9 my order will be executed when it hits 9 even if the price then continues to drop further till 8,7 and so on.

theoretically yes, practically not necessarily.

Thanks, PAC, I hesitated at first to pose the question, seemed so naive. What caused the question in the first place= I got irritated because my limit order was higher than the screen price at that time, therefore I thought it should be executed right away. The wait for execution literally speaking made me nervous and I increased the limit, hence I paid to much as you explained. This is not a problem Yoshiwara, but I wanted to understand. And as PAC is saying there is a lot more going on in these minutes than meets the eye. Might be a good read that book!

What you see on the screen is (in your case) the last price where a trade took place. I does for example not mean that your limit buy price is possible to get filled in case the bid/ask price at the same time does not make a fill possible for your order(because there is no match in the order book and as well nobody of the market makers is willed to take the other side of the trade). So I reckon in case this is a stock (but doesn't really matter if any other exchange traded product) it is either a very illiquid stock (market) with large bid/ ask spread our you are seeing delayed data on your screen. Since you have to order via phone which you stated it is most likely one of those scenarios, possibly both. Regardless as soon as you have a confirming ticket in your hands you can find out.

Edit:

there is no question too naive in this field, well there is one but that goes for most other things as well: the question that doesn't get asked.

What happens actually between the time my limit order is placed and final confirmation of the stock purchase? The case= I called my bank, gave order to buy x at limit 10,30. She gave it into her screen, came back to me a couple of times= still not filled. I called back after 15 min , order was confirmed at 10,23. What happened in those minutes. How does the precise matching at 10,23 work? Could have been lower or at my limit.

It could basically be lower. You will get a ticket confirming the transaction. It will either be a tickit issued by your broker or issued by the stock exchange. If it is issued by the exchange you have what you wanted and have to accept this. If it is issued by the broker and it matches your limit price as well you have what you wanted and probably have to accept it. If at the exchange for example there would have been a better price available (for example when the market would have opened at a much better price than you specified in the limit price you still would have no right to claim compensation or a better fill towards your broker since you have already agreed and signed terms and conditions (including price making). If not you would not have qualified to open the account for its particular purpose in the first place.

I could write a book alone about this as having experienced a lot of ridiculous things with clearing order fills. In short the fewer people sit between yourself and the exchange directly the more transparent everything becomes. While I still get screwed but have negotiated myself into a commission scheme which most others don't have.

yes but this is not a contradiction to what I said in the previous posts which you should be able to recognize on a second read.

I think we have agreed that there is gap risk.

One thing I have noticed re looking at a stock quoted in 2 markets eg FTSE and NYSE is that a breaking news event in NY has on occasion provided a few seconds to trade out on the FTSE. Did it once on an announcement on Bloomberg TV.

yes I think we can agree there. There is also currency risk(including interest rate consideration) and exchange risk. (trading halts or computer system crash). There could be said a lot more but I don't think that is necessary. Regardless whenever or wherever you see such news in reference to price changes in the media and even if you think it is in realtime it is already too late to make regular profit from such scenario.

I did it once. Sold on Betty Liu and then the FTSE went down seconds later. I have streaming live prices so was able to track in real time. Market reaction isn't always instantaneous.

yes tht's possible. These days however computers are adjusting quotes fast and usually "efficient". Most what worked before doens't now except for a few things that always worked and probably always will.

So I call Betty Liu a luck shot. Luck has no constant behavior. But still you might know something I havent't thought about since I provenly saw it not regularly working anymore.

yes but this is not a contradiction to what I said in the previous posts which you should be able to recognize on a second read.

I think we have agreed that there is gap risk.

One thing I have noticed re looking at a stock quoted in 2 markets eg FTSE and NYSE is that a breaking news event in NY has on occasion provided a few seconds to trade out on the FTSE. Did it once on an announcement on Bloomberg TV.

yes I think we can agree there. There is also currency risk(including interest rate consideration) and exchange risk. (trading halts or computer system crash). There could be said a lot more but I don't think that is necessary. Regardless whenever or wherever you see such news in reference to price changes in the media and even if you think it is in realtime it is already too late to make regular profit from such scenario.

It should be a collective effort without animosity, trying to find the facts or it's no fun. Just flaming someone is really no fun.

It's not an exercise that someone has to win.

those of us with the proverbial 2 Satangs knowledge over and above the normal financial mortal who might seek advice in a forum have a certain responsibility. whatever views we have should be marked clearly with "view" or "opinion" instead of presenting links which again provide only views, opinions and last not least predictions. anybody predicting anything in the financial world that pertains to the future and claims his views are pure refined and unfallible wisdom is in my[not so]humble view some sort of snake oil seller. that applies to markets, commodities, currencies and you name it.

over the years i have been asked dozens of times what i think of currency X and how it will fare vs. currency Y by the end of this year or a given period or faced otherwise financial questions.

my answer was always that i wouldn't dare to predict currency or market movements of tomorrow or day after tomorrow.

even predictions based on solid analysis, available numbers and hard work can turn out to be completely wrong. not only 2008 but the billions big shots like Buffet, Soros et al have lost and still lose once in a while are hard evidence for my claim.

I agree completely. But you do agree that people make predictions.

If someone asked me what I think the baht/USD will be 6 months from now I'd say I don't know. If someone asked me if he should buy a certain stock I'd say I don't know. I might say I'm buying it, though. I might say I'm completely out of stocks, too. I would say whether I'm buying gold.

I post what I see in the trajectory of an economy. I post what I see in the fundamentals. That doesn't mean I'm right.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm provoking thought. I accept opposite views. I accept it when someone points out a mistake.

So I'm just having fun being contrarian, trying to provoke thought and conversation, but each person has to make his own decisions. If I had listened to some experts 6 months ago I would have lost a lot of money.

No one should get his financial advice on an internet forum. But we do have a forum to discuss the "financial crisis" as it is named.

Post your views, I'll post mine, and no one has to lose. No one has to be right.

I'd say you have been much more often right than wrong. Right in analysing what you have read and applying your skillset according to your level of experience and education. You are biased and so are we all. The rest is noise by comparing dicks hypothetically which is silly unless we are a group of boys in the swimming pool - there is a good chance we are. Speaking is a skill and so is remaining silent .

PS: the quoting feature sucks

this question is not possible to answer if there is no further statement about the situation. The situation is explained by saying whether you want to make additional money here or you need to make money in order to stay here to cover surmounting expenses.

Start calling the Thai gold shops in Chinatown.

True, some of the gold shops are over a 100 years old - but Vietnam is a better market for 24K gold, better prices as well, they don't stick with the International Rates and gold is still almost #2000 an ounce.

I live in Vietnam and hold gold there. The current selling price (that is you selling) for a 1 luong bar (37.5g), which is 999.9 Fine Gold, is 40,880,000 dong.

Today's exchange rate is US$1 = 21,000 dong, therefore 37.5g is worth US$1947.

One troy ounce is equal to 31.1g, therefore the current value of gold in Vietnam is US$1615/troy ounce

The gold price is taken form this Vietnamese website: http://sjc.com.vn/?n=1 They are far and away the largest bullion dealers in Vietnam.

It reached peak on 1st October 2012 of 47,670,000 dong/luong. Stupidly, I held onto it.

I hope that clarifies it for you.

Saigon Sam

EDIT: "he largest" to "the largest"

if what you state is true (which I do not believe to be possible) then what goes the Dong - USD rate in reverse back for? (Not talking about mommy's wedding ring)

PCA, on 26 May 2013 - 23:57, said:

and then there is one more thing in between - currency exchange because using your sample they do trade in the currency of the country where they are listed at the (appropriate) exchange. Anyway that was a trading question based on chart reading (and order properties) purely. Portfolios are for investors, traders make or lose money as soon as they have entered at the place they are acting and nothing else.

First point re currency good. I am not sure I fully get that second point re traders/investors. One thing that is worth saying is that if say the stock has dived 10% on the NYSE, then setting a stop loss of less than that for when the FTSE opens will not get executed if the opening price jumps the stop. Even day-trading can encounter unfulfilled stop-loss if there is no buyer at that particular stop-loss point...which points to confining trading to liquid stocks to assist when such critical situations encountered of buyers across the board are doing a runner. No guarantee but better chance if/when a crash occurs.

there is the difference between the order types. The stop order in case it is a simple buy/sell stop order will get executed as soon as the the market is open(also premarket if the stock for example is listed on the NASDAQ) at the very next available price matching required size and it can be at any average price (sharp, splitted and even only partly executed) depending on the way how the market is made(there are many ways) and absolutely ignorant to gap openings if there is no pre- or 24h market. Now the stop order will give you a fill as soon as there is a match available while the stop limit order provides you with the risk of not getting filled at all in case there is a gap below or above the specified(limit) price. Both order types are not providing guaranteed protection against risk. Account risk and general market risk. Any sort of stop loss order parked in the market doesn't provide safety(fill at or near your wanted price). This question was probably meant as an entry order hence my reply was not furthergoing. Stop loss orders can get filled or not but never can they control the risk you want to avoid in the first place.

Then there is the stop limit order which insists on a certain price but not size(fully or partly filled is not a criteria - whatever is available will get filled)

...the point still holding that if the price drops 50% in the previous time zone A for a company stock, then holding a 20% stop loss at end of the previous session in time zone B will not act as any limitation on the opening price drop which may be expected (though not inevitably) be in excess of that stop loss (assuming that the news event originated in time zone A).

yes but this is not a contradiction to what I said in the previous posts which you should be able to recognize on a second read.

PCA, on 26 May 2013 - 23:57, said:

yoshiwara, on 26 May 2013 - 23:45, said:

It is not the same stock trading across different time zones otherwise you would expect the price to move in lockstep when the different exchanges are open at the same time, so for example HSBC is quoted on the Hang Seng, FTSE and NYSE and both FTSE and NYSE overlap and there is I think a 1-hour overlap on HS/FTSE in summer time. There is of course strong correlation but don't expect 1:1. If say you hold HSBc in Europe then you might get up at 7am to look at 0005 performance on the Hang Seng to inform you and during the FTSE trading hours look at the NYSE futures prior to NYSE opening, though these indicators can be treacherous. You could also set up a portfolio on Google Finance just to track the 3 shares together and get an idea of performance variation.

and then there is one more thing in between - currency exchange because using your sample they do trade in the currency of the country where they are listed at the (appropriate) exchange. Anyway that was a trading question based on chart reading (and order properties) purely. Portfolios are for investors, traders make or lose money as soon as they have entered at the place they are acting and nothing else.

First point re currency good. I am not sure I fully get that second point re traders/investors. One thing that is worth saying is that if say the stock has dived 10% on the NYSE, then setting a stop loss of less than that for when the FTSE opens will not get executed if the opening price jumps the stop. Even day-trading can encounter unfulfilled stop-loss if there is no buyer at that particular stop-loss point...which points to confining trading to liquid stocks to assist when such critical situations encountered of buyers across the board are doing a runner. No guarantee but better chance if/when a crash occurs.

there is the difference between the order types. The stop order in case it is a simple buy/sell stop order will get executed as soon as the the market is open(also premarket if the stock for example is listed on the NASDAQ) at the very next available price matching required size and it can be at any average price (sharp, splitted and even only partly executed) depending on the way how the market is made(there are many ways) and absolutely ignorant to gap openings if there is no pre- or 24h market. Now the stop order will give you a fill as soon as there is a match available while the stop limit order provides you with the risk of not getting filled at all in case there is a gap below or above the specified(limit) price. Both order types are not providing guaranteed protection against risk. Account risk and general market risk. Any sort of stop loss order parked in the market doesn't provide safety(fill at or near your wanted price). This question was probably meant as an entry order hence my reply was not furthergoing. Stop loss orders can get filled or not but never can they control the risk you want to avoid in the first place.

Then there is the stop limit order which insists on a certain price but not size(fully or partly filled is not a criteria - whatever is available will get filled)

It is not the same stock trading across different time zones otherwise you would expect the price to move in lockstep when the different exchanges are open at the same time, so for example HSBC is quoted on the Hang Seng, FTSE and NYSE and both FTSE and NYSE overlap and there is I think a 1-hour overlap on HS/FTSE in summer time. There is of course strong correlation but don't expect 1:1. If say you hold HSBc in Europe then you might get up at 7am to look at 0005 performance on the Hang Seng to inform you and during the FTSE trading hours look at the NYSE futures prior to NYSE opening, though these indicators can be treacherous. You could also set up a portfolio on Google Finance just to track the 3 shares together and get an idea of performance variation.

and then there is one more thing in between - currency exchange because using your sample they do trade in the currency of the country where they are listed at the (appropriate) exchange. Anyway that was a trading question based on chart reading (and order properties) purely. Portfolios are for investors, traders make or lose money as soon as they have entered at the place they are acting and nothing else.

Wonderful, both hints, the links are easy, David but the elaboration by

PAC requires more of my sun burned brain and a second reading :-)

lol - yes might seem so. Learn the rules then learn to bend them then get back into the sun and fry your brain again. Then sober up and trade what you see only and adjust your plan if necessary. Like driving a car (sensual). Then sun again

all I know is that they update more frequently now changed from twice a day before. Not really sure now but there is a guy posting sometimes who seems to work or have worked for one of the big credit card companies. He should know that I think his id here is Swiss1960 or something like that.

PCA thanks for prompt reply! I guessed that much but now I know for sure. So the answer is to wait until NY opens and to check if the stock price is still within an acceptable range.

Alternatively placing a blind order with questionable result.

yes you either wait until the opening or you can already have a parked Buy/Sell Stop Limit order at a specified price. In case the price at the opening gaps (opens below your sell stop order or above your buy stop order) you will not get filled instantly but only if the stock retraces to your specified limit price. In a fast market that bears the risk that you do not get a fill at all if it opens within your wanted price range and trades very fast through your (limited) price. But to avoid that after having seen the opening range printed you can then convert the buy/sell stop limit to a simple buy/sell stop order. Hope that does not confuse you.