thaicruze

Amusing that a whole day is spent "flogging the dead horse", i.e., defending the government against people who voice their concerns about wasting taxpayer money, after such strenuous earlier attempts to shut the thread down. This dead horse has legs after all, eh?! BTW, justifying a bad practice with reference to another bad practice is illogical and disingenuous. The fallback to legality as a decider on ethical/moral issues is also a copout. At the end of the day, it is interesting to speculate why you felt you needed to expend so much effort on this topic, one in which you initially expressed so little interest. Interesting.

Interestingly interesting. Isnt it?

Call it whatever you want, but clean your house first before you criticize others. That's the point. In case you didn't read it when I said it the first time.

So, why aren't the English going to protest the same thing done in the UK? Why is it OK for you there but not OK here?

Please don't excuse government waste with pointing at other government waste.

So it's OK for the MPs "back home" to charge the tax payer for their ipads and macbooks but not here.

Ok. Got it.

It's OK for your house to be a pig pen and you going around the neighborhood criticizing your neighbors for having filthy houses.

The point I was making is that what Thailand is doing has been found back in the UK to be perfectly legal and fine.

It is the opposite - it isn't ok back home either. But this forum seem to be the wrong place to complain about it. (And I haven't lived nor paid tax back home in many years.)

You're wrong. It is perfectly legal in the UK and many MPs charge their iPads to be paid by tax payer's money.

In the UK last year about 8 MPs a week charged their iPads and MacBooks to be paid with tax payer's money. Including the prime minister at the time.

Nothing wrong with paying these things with tax payer money.

So, why aren't the English going to protest the same thing done in the UK? Why is it OK for you there but not OK here?

Please don't excuse government waste with pointing at other government waste.

So it's OK for the MPs "back home" to charge the tax payer for their ipads and macbooks but not here.

Ok. Got it.

It's OK for your house to be a pig pen and you going around the neighborhood criticizing your neighbors for having filthy houses.

The point I was making is that what Thailand is doing has been found back in the UK to be perfectly legal and fine.

I think you haven't been reading anything I have typed.

What is your complaining about it accomplishing? It is happening. Period. The end.

There is complaint since government waste and misuse of founds should be complained about.

Not doing so would be to fail in our duty as taxpayers.

So, why aren't the English going to protest the same thing done in the UK? Why is it OK for you there but not OK here?

If an MP needs additional technical gizmos then he is free to buy it himself.

No need for the state to cover it.

Well. Guess what. They ARE covering it.

I think you have discovered what we are complaining about.

I think you haven't been reading anything I have typed.

What is your complaining about it accomplishing? It is happening. Period. The end.

I have one more point to add and then I'm done: - If this announcement was that the cabinet ministers, MPs, Senators, hell the entire government was to be issued with the same devices as the children in schools then I would have lauded them for wanting to set an example and to show that what is good for their children is good for them.

Instead they show just how superior, greedy and shallow they really are.

They are different devices for different purposes and different users.

If an MP needs additional technical gizmos then he is free to buy it himself.

No need for the state to cover it.

Well. Guess what. They ARE covering it.

So, why is Obama on his BB all the time? Who provides him with his devices?

And you mean to tell me that if you send a business related email to an MP the reply is from a secretary?

So, if a group of MPs are working on something important and it involves working on a problem and sending emails to each other back and forth that the people who actually are working on the issue are the secretaries? No MP ever answers emails that are related to their work?

You want us to believe this MR IT guru?

I wonder why these MPs don't have a line of secretaries behind them everywhere they go since according to mr bill gates here, they never touch a calendar or a planner or answer any emails.

No need to be precocious; I was not attacking you... Your points - are these from personal experience?

President Obama is, well, the president - here we are talking about the entire cabinet. If the topic was PM Yingluk to be provided with an expensive toy I would not bother to comment.

I will venture to say that most likely all official emails are definitely scrutinised by secretaries, with only important matters handled by MPs themselves. Do you have any idea of the sheer volume of such traffic? Of course important decisions are made by the official but in most cases the reply will be sent by his PA or secretary.

Most important matters are handled in the many, many meetings such people attend all day - notes and minutes are taken by a secretary and mailed to all.

As for calendars and planners, well you try to get one of these guys to work with sophisticated software and see the result...

I see. So your solution is that everything is handled by a secretary and keep everyone oblivious to the fact this is the 21st century.

Then open another thread about how the Thai government doesn't embrace technology like us in the west and how much more superior we are.

So you're saying they DO handle emails, but really really important ones out of the hundreds and hundreds mr somchai gets everyday from his thousands of devoted fans.

They do have laptops right? So are you saying they don't use those either? Because they said they did. By your logic they are lying because their secretaries should take care of everything.

I think it is a good idea. In the US they used to do blackberry. I think iPads and iPhones are a much better idea for government.

If used properly, it can make communication easier. They can also get work done on the go. Reply to emails, edit documents, work in reminders and set up meetings and calendar events, etc etc without being stuck to a computer. All this stuff will sync with iCloud automatically.

It's the 21st century. Get used to it.

Wait - they will actually have to do this themselves? So all those personal secretaries will be out of a job?

I see most of these devices being given to kids and cronies. Of course 'stolen' or 'lost' devices will be replaced at tax payers expense too.

secretaries answer their personal emails? Really?

I see Obama clicking away at his BB all the time. Let's get rid of the White House secretary. Since Obama answers his own personal messages obviously the secretary has absolutely nothing to do.

Where do you guys come from? Seriously.

Where? In my case more than 20 years in the IT industry.

If you think the expenditure is for personal emails then you have validated my argument quite nicely as that is not an acceptable reason.

Each and every MP most definitely has a private secretary, whose job is to do precisely the things listed as reasons for providing such devices. Business email, meeting schedules etc. will still be handled by them so once again I question the justification for providing expensive toys at taxpayer's expense.

Perhaps you think they will fire their secretaries...

One more thing; the White House Secretary is hardly a personal secretary to the President!

So, why is Obama on his BB all the time? Who provides him with his devices?

And you mean to tell me that if you send a business related email to an MP the reply is from a secretary?

So, if a group of MPs are working on something important and it involves working on a problem and sending emails to each other back and forth that the people who actually are working on the issue are the secretaries? No MP ever answers emails that are related to their work?

You want us to believe this MR IT guru?

I wonder why these MPs don't have a line of secretaries behind them everywhere they go since according to mr bill gates here, they never touch a calendar or a planner or answer any emails.

Yes. Around 25,000 for the device and another 10,000 for other stuff like apps as needed. It won't all be spent at once.

It maybe that some request training. That costs money which can be taken out of the budget.

Apps for 10,000 baht? ... even 25,000 baht for the devices? Retail price isn't even that much.

I thought these things were simple to use. Training? Are they going to have someone follow each MP around for a week?

If you've never used a device before, you would benefit from a basic how to use training. Some people can't figure out how to turn on any tablet. iPad or any one of them. They don't know you just push the button. Then it says "slide to unlock". They stare at it not knowing what to do. This is the reality of the regular user, most of all when they are older.

So you tell me, what is the retail price for a 64GB 3G iPad?

You just HAVE to know what they are doing with the rest of the money.

You want ME to itemize everything for you. Well let's see.

I calculate somewhere about 10,700 baht extra per device. That's about $350 bucks. You just HAVE to know WHERE this extra money is going.

iWorks for iPad = 900 baht (300 baht each)

I'm sure you can get a list of 10-15 professional business apps and get to 10,000 baht quite easily. I just did 1 and I'm already at 1,000 baht.

Will someone pocket some money? Sure. You tell me 1 government in the world that doesn't.

Oh wait. He wants more proof. Ok

Maybe you buy 1 app for a minister that is involved in real estate development. He deals with architects all the time.

So you get him Architactical Inception = 15,000 baht.

There you go.

The government responded. I don't think people here understand what they are saying. They said that some MPs WILL use and want to use tablets for an easy means of communications and staying in touch with the public. Then they went on to say that the complaints will come if some MPs get things and some don't.

What they are saying is that some MPs will use the tablets and want to use them, so of they hand them out to some they have to hand them out to all. Every section has a budget and this is a budget for this purpose. As they said, they are still using hand me down laptops from yesteryear. For communication such as emailing and social media as well as some light work and scheduling things, carrying around a laptop is inconvenient and no longer necessary because an iPad is much more efficient at doing these tasks and they are now things that are quite affordable, so instead of a budget for another batch of shitty laptops; they are upgrading to tablets (and some iPhones I guess). That's basically it.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

If some 60 year old MPs who hardly understand how to click a mouse is complaining about this being a waste of money, then so what? Those few aren't going to "get it" anyway. They hold on to the past. The old way of doing things. Bureaucratic and inefficient. More power to them if they want to drag these old hags into the 21st century kicking and screaming.

At 35,000 baht each?

Yes. Around 25,000 for the device and another 10,000 for other stuff like apps as needed. It won't all be spent at once.

It maybe that some request training. That costs money which can be taken out of the budget.

The government responded. I don't think people here understand what they are saying. They said that some MPs WILL use and want to use tablets for an easy means of communications and staying in touch with the public. Then they went on to say that the complaints will come if some MPs get things and some don't.

What they are saying is that some MPs will use the tablets and want to use them, so of they hand them out to some they have to hand them out to all. Every section has a budget and this is a budget for this purpose. As they said, they are still using hand me down laptops from yesteryear. For communication such as emailing and social media as well as some light work and scheduling things, carrying around a laptop is inconvenient and no longer necessary because an iPad is much more efficient at doing these tasks and they are now things that are quite affordable, so instead of a budget for another batch of shitty laptops; they are upgrading to tablets (and some iPhones I guess). That's basically it.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

If some 60 year old MP who hardly understands how to click a mouse is complaining about this being a waste of money, then so what? Those few aren't going to "get it" anyway. They hold on to the past. The old way of doing things. Bureaucratic and inefficient. More power to them if they want to drag these old hags into the 21st century kicking and screaming.

A laptop is not a real time communications device.

What world do you live in? My laptop is primarily a real-time communication device.

I agree 100%.

In fact I find iPaids to be nothing more than a flashy gadget better suited to personal entertainment than professional office workers. Children are easily distracted and most adults who buy these are just children at heart anyway

A tablet is the computer of the future. And a mobile OS is the OS of the future. It is what bill gates talked about years ago, before iPhones even existed, when he described the experience of a desktop OS being unified where the applications, OS and Internet would e brought together as 1 seamless experience.

A tablet can be used for most everyday tasks you do on the computer. My smartphone has replaced my laptop for 99% of the things I do. The only time I use my computer now is to design things in Photoshop and stuff like that.

Kids don't get distracted easily if you 1) have control 2) are prepared and know what you're doing.

I think it is a good idea. In the US they used to do blackberry. I think iPads and iPhones are a much better idea for government.

If used properly, it can make communication easier. They can also get work done on the go. Reply to emails, edit documents, work in reminders and set up meetings and calendar events, etc etc without being stuck to a computer. All this stuff will sync with iCloud automatically.

It's the 21st century. Get used to it.

Wait - they will actually have to do this themselves? So all those personal secretaries will be out of a job?

I see most of these devices being given to kids and cronies. Of course 'stolen' or 'lost' devices will be replaced at tax payers expense too.

secretaries answer their personal emails? Really?

I see Obama clicking away at his BB all the time. Let's get rid of the White House secretary. Since Obama answers his own personal messages obviously the secretary has absolutely nothing to do.

Where do you guys come from? Seriously.

But why buy 4G equipment when Thailand is yet to have 3G?

See that there on my phone next to "True"?

Why can't they use the $81 tablet?

Because it has that crap Android installed.

I bet that the Nation newspaper is still using typewriters instead of computers and that they use black old phones instead iPhones

I'll bet you 1 million baht. How much are you willing to put down on that wager?

Would you take a look a this. Even The Nation can tweet through a typewriter. That must be some typewriter. dam_n

All their tweets come from either Facebook, TweetDeck or Twitterfeed. Meaning someone is at a COMPUTER.

This is not uncommon in Government. Texas buys its Leadership and legislators the latest and greatest at least every two years or more often depending on the technology changes. Designated state agencies get the hand-me-downs. The hard drives are wiped cleaned and re-imaged with the latest software updates so its almost good as new. Rank has its privileges and they should have the best tools available.

Yes, I agree that it is not uncommon.

But you will also note that this primarily happens in governments, not in corporations, since in government you can trust the money to be stolen from the people no-matter what your performance is.

And what are you doing about this? Typing in a forum and what else?

This topic is dead. Let's stop beating a dead horse.

They're going to buy the iPads. Live with it. The world won't end.

Amazes me how we ever survived without real-time communications--e-mail and SMS. Sounds like you must work in the fire brigade, for a blood bank, transplant unit, or at the stock exchange, to need such desperately urgent full-time access to real-time communications. How do you ever sleep? I guess you can't. Sad.

Amazes me how long we survived without computers. But guess what.…

What would you say if Mexicans got a forum in the USA and all they did was complain about everything in the USA? What would you say to them?

If their complaint was valid and brought about change that was beneficial to all, I'd say "well done"

Wake me up the day a falang's complaining brings about change in Thailand.

Hahahahahah

Do something more productive with your time.

Wake up Thailand conforms with US, ASEAN and UN international policies and treaties

So a US treaty is the same as Falangs complaining?

I don't get your logic.

probably should have spent that money on students and gotten 3x as many tablets from india or china..

dont think senators will have a hard time purchasing those on their own..

What?

Senators - 50 million

Spent on students - 18 billion

What would you say if Mexicans got a forum in the USA and all they did was complain about everything in the USA? What would you say to them?

If their complaint was valid and brought about change that was beneficial to all, I'd say "well done"

Wake me up the day a falang's complaining brings about change in Thailand.

Hahahahahah

Do something more productive with your time.

I've never seen an iPad used for anything other than playing games, websurfing (usually facebook), looking at photos, and to make it's owner look like an even bigger <deleted>... taking photos.

Perhaps if we could get a list of the productivity tools the MP's would be using on their iPads for the betterment of society it might put the naysayers minds at ease. I shall now hold my breathe.....

Why do you need to "see a list" of anything the Thai government does? What do they owe you? They give you a visa and they pay you. They take taxes out of your check and will use it to run the country that gives you a check and a visa. That's all you need to worry about. Thailand doesn't have to show you anything.

Before you criticize, why don't YOU try running a country? Let's see how well you do.

Thailand is very corrupt and far from perfect, but the attitude by expats no less, taken towards Thailand and bad mouthing every single thing they do is obnoxious. If you really hate this country that much, I'll call you a taxi to take you right back to the airport.

And the xenophobic rant of a Thaiwannabe once again raises its voice.

It has nothing to do with xenophobia. Do you know what that word means?

We are GUESTS in this country. Working immigrants on a work visa.

What would you say if Mexicans got a forum in the USA and all they did was complain about everything in the USA? What would you say to them?

I know what I would say "America isn't perfect and it is corrupt, but if you hate it that much, why don't you fuc_k off back to Mexico?"

That is hardly xenophobic. That's not being either fearful or disliking people of other countries. That's just asking a simple question.

You're here. You're a guest. Thailand is what it is. It isn't going to change for some Falangs in a forum. What's the point of arguing everything? Let them spend all the money they want on whatever they want.

You are still getting paid right? Take your check and enjoy it.