Jean Pierre Jacquot

Except no one was shooting thousands of rockets at those places, which any country on earth would have to stop. Your argument is dishonest as well as morally bankrupt.

Sure any country would respond to rockets being shot at them. Some would respond in looking at their way they do treat the ones who hate them, some would respond by military action. But NO ONE EXCEPT ISRAEL has responded by intentionally bombing from the UN as safe declared schools at daytime. Only Israel is doing it and with it demonstrating their wish to continue the genocide conducted by them.

Here is another perspective for you:

For right-wing zionist who justify child killing as a self-defence, as you and some of your TV friends, anything is good to put the attention away from the genocide committed by Israel in Palestina.

(BTW, "child killing" is NOT Israeli government policy. Innocents do get hurt and killed in wartime when going after military targets. Just so you know, supporting Israel's right to exist and defend herself doesn't necessarily make a person a RIGHT WING Zionist. I don't identify as right wing.)

“You don’t need to be a history professor, or a psychiatrist, to understand what’s going on,” says Friedman. “The descendants of powerless people who were pushed out of Europe and the Islamic Middle East have become what their grandparents were — the pool into which the world spits. The Jews of Israel are the screen onto which it has become socially acceptable to project the things you hate about yourself and your own country. The tool through which this psychological projection is executed is the international press.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-gerson-the-continuing-menace-of-anti-semitism/2014/08/28/b14b154c-2ef1-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

A school a military target after the UN repeatedly has told the Israeli army that is of-limits? You are joking man! You might not be a right-wing, so how should I call you, somebody who justifies killing children?

You are just flaming now. Your racist posting history is there (what remains anyway) for everyone to see.

Don't divert from the topic in your response. Israel has been murdering children and you guys have no arguments and or facts to rebuke this. But as good zionists you don't aknowledge that, you wouldn't even consider it was a mistake. But what can we expect from people supporting a genocide?

A school a military target after the UN repeatedly has told the Israeli army that is of-limits? You are joking man! You might not be a right-wing, so how should I call you, somebody who justifies killing children?

Good to hear that more and more senior and respected people around the world are starting to raise awareness about what is going on in the occupied territories. Interesting that it turns out that the reasons for these human rights abuses is more business oriented. Well, matches well the general impression people always had with Jews..5555555.... But on a more serious note: Israel has been stealing so much land froim the Palestinians throughout the last decades, it is really sickening. Shame on them!

Look at the on Internet available map of land distribution in Palestina from 1946 to now. The Jews have been stealing the whole lot! What is left from Palestina is now just a tiny little piece. The Jews are definitely out there with the worst human rights offenders in history!

Proving yet again the direct link between Israel demonization and racism against Jews.

For right-wing zionist who justify child killing as a self-defence, as you and some of your TV friends, anything is good to put the attention away from the genocide committed by Israel in Palestina.

Here is another perspective for you:

(BTW, "child killing" is NOT Israeli government policy.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/michael-gerson-the-continuing-menace-of-anti-semitism/2014/08/28/b14b154c-2ef1-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

I don't care if it is GO policy or not but it is what Israel is doing and this is for what Israel is being associated with right now and fuels the worldwide outcry of these non-acceptable crimes against humanity.

Interesting that it turns out that the reasons for these human rights abuses is more business oriented. Well, matches well the general impression people always had with Jews.

The same old hateful smears.

By the way, Jimmy Carter has been beating the same erroneous drum for decades. Nothing new there.

Where there is smoke there is some fire my dear!

Have y'all read the hot old book: "The Mind of an Anti-Semite"?

Reading the minds of child-killers is enough a burdon for me already.

Good to hear that more and more senior and respected people around the world are starting to raise awareness about what is going on in the occupied territories. Interesting that it turns out that the reasons for these human rights abuses is more business oriented. Well, matches well the general impression people always had with Jews..5555555.... But on a more serious note: Israel has been stealing so much land froim the Palestinians throughout the last decades, it is really sickening. Shame on them!

Look at the on Internet available map of land distribution in Palestina from 1946 to now. The Jews have been stealing the whole lot! What is left from Palestina is now just a tiny little piece. The Jews are definitely out there with the worst human rights offenders in history!

Proving yet again the direct link between Israel demonization and racism against Jews.

For right-wing zionist who justify child killing as a self-defence, as you and some of your TV friends, anything is good to put the attention away from the genocide committed by Israel in Palestina.

Interesting that it turns out that the reasons for these human rights abuses is more business oriented. Well, matches well the general impression people always had with Jews.

The same old hateful smears.

By the way, Jimmy Carter has been beating the same erroneous drum for decades. Nothing new there.

Where there is smoke there is some fire my dear!

The hateful, dishonest rhetoric and mudslinging is not winning any arguments.

Morch has a real knowledge of the conflict and is not firmly on either side - although he does believe in Israel's right to exist. I guess that is too much for some very partisan people.

Maybe you should look into the mirror UG.

Interesting what Jimmy says.

Talking about President Carter, here's his latest press release:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jimmy Carter To Give Keynote Speech At Muslim Convention In Detroit

8.25.2014 News Paul Bois

On Monday, The Toledo Blade reported that former President Jimmy Carter, the same President who accused Israel of practicing apartheid and called for the U.S to "legitimize" Hamas, will be giving the keynote speech at the 51st annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) held in Detroit this Friday, September 1st.

The speech will be held at a luncheon August 30th.

That very same evening, a session will be held titled, "Generations Rise: Elevating Muslim-American Culture," the same title as the conference's theme, where ISNA's outgoing President, Imam Mohamed Magid and four other Muslim speakers will offer ideas over Muslim-American advancement over the next five years. A "secret special guest" is also billed to appear, no indications are made whether that will be Carter or not.

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/jimmy-carter-give-keynote-speech-muslim-convention-detroit

Now doesn't that just warm the cockles of your heart?

Good to hear that more and more senior and respected people around the world are starting to raise awareness about what is going on in the occupied territories. Interesting that it turns out that the reasons for these human rights abuses is more business oriented. Well, matches well the general impression people always had with Jews..5555555.... But on a more serious note: Israel has been stealing so much land froim the Palestinians throughout the last decades, it is really sickening. Shame on them!

Look at the on Internet available map of land distribution in Palestina from 1946 to now. The Jews have been stealing the whole lot! What is left from Palestina is now just a tiny little piece. The Jews are definitely out there with the worst human rights offenders in history!

It is a Thai custom that every man should become a monk for at least 3 months before he marries. Now today not many are following this anymore, but from the ones who do not many are 'voluntarily' becoming a monk, but just follow reluctantly what family/society expects from them. Many (if not most) abbots are not ready to be an abbot and to take care of these short-time monks and on top of that many of these temples harbour more long-term monks who are definitely not diligent practitioners but guys who don't know where else to go and want to lead a lazy life. So don't be surprised if we find out that they are more or less leading the same life as before.

Jewish Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend herself against aggressive genocidal forces like Hamas. No childish ad hominem attacks will ever change that truth. As far as the Jewish "anti-Zionists" referred to in the OP, they do not represent the vast majority of global Jews and they NEVER WILL.

Sure, most of us are not disagreeing with this. However you need to aknowledge as well that Israel has to respect international treaties and frameworks. Now deliberately bombing markets and from the UN as "off-limit" declared schools is against international rights. How can a human being continue to defend these awful acts of Israel? Don't come up with the home made bombs alledgly shot by the Hamas, they hardly do any damage and especially there are of so bad quality you cannot shoot an elephant from 50 meters with them. But Israel's bombs are very accurate. They want to bomb a school, a market and do it. These actions unfortunately place them in the same category as other unthinkable atrocities as done by the Khmer Rouge, many others, including Nazi Deutschland.

Hope this will create some changes in Israel. Not surprisingly came from the ones who experienced the effects of genocide on their own, which has frequently the effect of not wanting anybody else to endure the same thing. Much different from our zionist friends who sit the whole day in front of their computer and frantically defend deliberate school bombing and child killing as self defense. Maybe should go out there to experience real life.

It is VERY common to target terrorist leaders and legal protections don't apply to them. Targeted killing is legitimate when employed against terrorists or combatants engaged in asymmetrical warfare

Well in that case you would certainly agree with the fact that it is legitimate to kill all Israelis right? They are terrorists and almost all of them are former and present combatants.

Just say it once: Hamas was wrong to shoot thousands of rockets into Israel and hide behind their own civilians. Israel has the right to defend themselves and no country on earth would put up with those missiles.

Hamas was of course wrong to shoot rockets into Isreal and use hiding behind civilians as a strategy. Israel (as Palestinia) has to right to defend themselves and no country on earth would just sit iddle with home made bombs being shot at them.

No problem at all for me to say that. So what about you?

Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

Almost every one of your posts comes across as ignorant, hateful and angry. You are no more unbiased or "compassionate" than the people that you are criticizing. People in glass houses...

Dear Ulysses,

Just say it once: Israel was wrong to bomb schools and kill children. I should rethink my position.

Just say it once, you will see how much it will help you. Trust me.

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Israeli supporters are Zionist friends. Some of us have a position that lends toward one side, or the other, but do try to remain dispassionate. I have seen few posts here that solicit or sell hate. To suggest a collective responsibility for the deliberate killing of of innocent children, upon the TV populace, is just rude.

You narrowly note that currently Israel has some means of power and... are you aware of the wars launched against the Jews by their arab neighbors when it was percieved that the arbas had some means and power? Are you aware this street goes in both directions. Israeli bombing of civilian areas, irrespective of how it came to pass, will be a terrible unintended consequence. This... this type of act, whether defended as defense of proactive, entrenches another generation of local arabs and confirms Jew hatred, Hamas creates the pretext for Israel to act, and this action furthers Hamas' claim that Israel is.... But Hate? Here? I think this is a bit overdone. It would be kind to simply retract that one point. Just a conceding it was a bit too much would be kind and demonstrate meeting others half way. And yes, they are both fools and for all our evolution humans cant find a way out of this morass.

Of course you are right.

It just saddens and sickens me that I never heard any of the Israel defenders on TV say something like: Israel was wrong to bomb from the UN declared safe schools. Maybe we should have not bombed markets because too many civilians are dead. Is it really necessary for us to conduct military actions which kill thousands of mostly innocent civilians in response to some home-made bombs killing a handful of our citizens? Does Israel really needs to show an attitute of one eye for one eye (actually thousands of eyes for one eye....). Can't we think of something more productive on the road to some difficult but from us all wished for peace? We are in the driver position, shouldn't we show some sign that we are not rock-hard?

I have difficulties understanding that some people on this earth could consider Israels recent actions as legitimate due to whatever reason. These people seem to have such a hardened heart, no feelings, no compassion whatsoever. I can only interprete them as being hardliners, extremists, blind thickheads.

Now of course that doesn't mean that I agree with what the from you guys called 'Arabs' do. No way. But them doing nasty things just doesn't justify Israel doing what they are doing now.

But maybe the majority on both sides are helplessly lost in their anger. In Buddhim we can call that : are in hell. That's why I prefer not to argue with them anymore, there is no sense in it as it leads to nowhere. Of course like to provocate them a bit from time to time. I am human too... and still hope that some day they will be able to leave the hell of anger.

Well, unfortunately there will be never ever peace between the Jews and their neighbours. Just look at the attitude and hatred in the comments of our zionist friends and these might be guys who even don't live in Israel. As long as these thickheads fully accept such crimes against the humanity as deliberately killing innocent children and bombing schools as being fine because Israel needs to protect themselves. How could peace ever happen? Is really sad but this is the reality. Right now Israel has the military power and use it to kill 'Arabs', who knows one day the other side will have more power and they will kill of the Jews. As a matter of fact both are fools.

Another failure ahead. No win situation for Israel until they take all Gaza exterminate HAMAS and leave. Half a job isn't a job well done. And tell the 'World opinion' to go and bomb themselves.

Exterminating Hamas is just waste of time and lives.As long as Palestinians have no human rights and live in camps, there will be Hamas or new equal organisation.

When the arabs accept that Israelis have rights, such as the right to live without the threat of suicide bombers and rockets killing women and children; then and only then can the arabs complain about their human rights

Which are these arabs you are talking about?

Palestinians are raised from day one in hatred agains Israelis.

I have not noticed the opposite in Israel.

Would depend on which places you visit in Israel, whom you talk to and on what level. As you mentioned earlier that you stayed on a kibbutz, it is not very surprising that you would come to this conclusion.

I travelled extensively around Israel, slept in hotels, guest houses, kibbutz and stayed at people's houses making the error of switching on the lights on Sabbat. I was told not to worry but saw the fanatics attacking people carrying a camera. I made friends with a university professor of Hebrew who spoke perfect French and English and a journalist for the Jerusalem Post. We still keep in touch sporadically.

I travelled into the Golan and saw the flattened houses and visited the border with Syria and saw a flattened Syrian town. War is sadness.

I travelled thought the Negev desert and the West Bank.

I only have negative souvenirs meeting Palestinians.

I have mixed souvenirs meeting Israelis, most positive though.

There you have it.

I saw the hatred in the Palestinian eyes, every time.

We see what we want to see.

I think what many detest about Israel, aside from the historical inequity in the Jewish land grabs, is that Israel IS the aggressor. Responding to a bunch of rockets that fall in barren fields with the disingenuous cry of "We have a right to defend ourselves" and employing a barrage of modern weapons to kill hundreds is aggression.

If a little waif off the street picks up a pebble and throws it harmlessly at my feet, and I respond by yelling "I have a right to defend myself" and attack the waif with a knife and a club, giving him a sound beating...who is the aggressor? Add to that scenario that the waif happens to have something I want, and if he runs away I'll obtain, and my motives become clear.

Ok, "what many detest about Israel," and you then make a valid point about the land, but you digress into the very thing under consideration as a declared fact, "Israel IS (I guess no ISIS pun intended) the aggressor."

It's convenient for an observer to arbitrarily decide "a bunch of rockets" doesn't deserve response; today, yesterday, last month, last year, every year, on the ground, in the air, overseas, on the coast. Because that the attackers aren't brilliant does not an excuse make. It's been a varying standard in war that you don't go into a gunfight with a knife. So, assuming this is known- and the whole world knows Israel will respond- why then does Hamas continuing using a knife? Doesn't reason and personal mental justice compel one to ask the question? "If Israel keeps rooting us out, forcing us to flee for our lives and hide amongst our citizens, in hospitals, in camps, why do we attack with a knife (a bunch of rockets)?" The answer is unambiguous. Hamas sacrifices Palestinians because their strategic warfare rests on the attrition of public perception. Every Sovereign since time immemorial had steadfastly guarded it's terrain. Your point is not invalid, it just doesn't seem complete, or it's lacking context. To me.

It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone. Your point is not that obvious to me. false analogy (a bit overdone)=Hamas is not a little waif off the streets. Rockets are not little pebbles. I can't comment on secondary scenarios to the waif; that one wiped me out. I hope your smiling because my intention is not unkind. I just think differently. Your position, if exercised, still produces war, conflict, or non resolution.

If Israel only return fired rockets in empty fields in response invariably Hamas would what... Get more precise. Then, extrapolating a scenario from your point, Israel would respond in kind? If Hamas rocket hit a bus and Israeli planners were considering target packets they should the correspondingly look for a target that wipes out.... Hrmmm there were 18 bus victims so... 18 Hamas fighters. You ask of Israel a standard not asked of anyone, anywhere, ever, as a tool of state.

Sorry my friend, you are using sophistry. Unintentionally, I'm sure. You concede the land issue is valid, you then go on to talk about the reality of going to a gunfight armed with a knife. So true and apt, but it avoids the issue of justice, and another reality; that of fighting to your last breath, tooth and nail, for your home. And if you hit below the belt, really, who uses Queensberry rules when the literal life of your entire community is at stake (not to mention your opponent doesn't fight by the rules either)?

You say it's a false analogy, that pebbles are not rockets. Helicopter gunships, white phosphorous, and tanks are not a knife and a club, either. Actually, to make the analogy more accurate, I should tie one of the waif's hands behind his back, and starve him of sustenance so he has low energy. I do not think I overdid it at all. You did not mention my cry, as I brutally bully the waif, of "I have a right to defend myself!". It was important to the analogy. Also important to the analogy was the fact that I want something that the waif has, and with him gone or incapacitated, I am free to take it.

I don't dispose of your point regarding proportionate responses. I think, though, you were a little disingenuous to suggest that I think Israel should kill 18, for the 18 Hammas killed. But there's proportionate and then there's vastly disproportionate, ie pebble harmlessly falling in my direction vs a severe beating with a knife and club. Surely if I had slapped the waif, or even boxed his ears I would not earn (as much) censure?

As you say, "It's convenient to mask our deep seated position in what we believe by the conviction it's universally obvious to everyone.".

I avoid the secondary points of your post and go to the heart.

And so you capture and define my weakest point; I am aware of it. If any reads my posts they could infer it. But you are correct. In a world of absolutes (suspend the relative for a moment), Israel took land from others. I often sidestep this issue by declaring there was no Palestinian State, ever. I declare that the Arab world never even recognized a Palestinian State previously. Yes. I do not do this to be evasive or sell a product. I believe this. But my mind operates from a singular perspective:

If we aren't going to kill all the Jews, and we aren't going to kill all the Arabs, how do we proceed. History should inform the future and the absolute fact of the land grab doesn't inform any current, relative choices.

I do find myself mixing relative arguments with absolute reality (land grab). I try to avoid it but then it becomes insufferable to defend my position when people introduce the issue of first cause- the land grab. It is at this point where my line item arguments come to an end, or don't connect. I am an honest man and I have an abiding respect for keeping my mind subordinate to reason. I try to have no opinion I cant defend with reason or self evidence. Every post I make I consider deeply and mean. Sometimes I am mistaken or post wrong and when shown, I hope my humility equals the observation.

I just deeply believe that the issue with the Palestinians is much more fundamental than land (Indeed for the remainder of Islam the land is a vehicle only; they hate Jews). I am an avid student of Islam having once written a book on the mystical similarities of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. The problem was after I began collecting my facts on Islam, reading the many suras, the hadith, islamic exegesis, etc., I became appalled and realized that I would be fitting a round hole in a square socket. I could not edit it nor publish it. Indeed, even Sufi suffered greatly. In my instance, I could not complete the comparison for the book but the knowledge, and the many years in these areas, informed me that there is a very deep, underlying maleficence motivating Arabs towards Israel and in another book I called that chapter The Thorn in Ishmael's Side. This is the issue. (Note: The Book in reference will never be mentioned).

Thanks for your humility. Much appreciated, at least some of the Israel defenders are considering their position from time to time.

I cannot however agree with this blant statement: Moslems hate Jews. After all what the Jews did to them in the Middle East there are obviously a bit angry about them. (I have to control my anger about this arrogant, blood thirsty Israelis too and I am even not a Muslim). But just saying they hate Jews? No, you really can't. The problem with the Arabs and the Jews (as a matter of fact Jews are Arabs too), is that they are very tribe-oriented and very suspicioius towards anything else than their own tribe.

There is a solution: compassion towards each other. Israel needs to stop thinking that they can control 'the Arabs' in just eradicating and suppressing them, this creates only hate in them and plays into the hands of extremists on the other side, like Hamas. Palestinians need, though I understand it is very hard as the Jews kill deliberately their children, to be compassionate and understanding towards the Jews. This is what I meant with love can change things. Hate will never bring a real change.