johnnybangkok

19 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Enough of this 'legally binding' twaddle. What is the point of holding a referendum if the result is not bound to be enacted? The very fact that the vote was held is sufficient guarantee in the minds of everyone taking part that the result will be honoured no matter what the small print might say. Call it a promise, or a moral obligation, or the honour system - the actual fact is that the result cannot be ignored or rescinded without bringing down the foundation of democratic participation and confidence in the system. Apart from that it's just not British (I cling to the idea that such a thing still exists).

Btw, the 1975 vote was not 'legally binding' either, but we joined Europe without all this whining.

 

Ahhh the simplistic logic of the typical Brexit fan. Ok let me spell this out, hopefully once and for all.

This is how it is from the Remain camp.

In an effort to have a final say on the EU question (one that many governments had been dodging for an awful long time) David Cameron in his infinite wisdom decides to hold a referendum. Despite the fact the referendums are not legally binding in the UK (we are a parliamentary democracy after all) he commits us all to the result with a 'parliament will honour the vote'.

On a 75% turnout, Leave wins by a tiny majority. There's lots of fingers pointing at the likes of Cambridge Analytica,  Russian interference and blatant lying and scaremongering from both camps.

The Remain camp looks on in astonishment and although very unhappy, they reluctantly accept the result (myself included).

Then the fun and games begin.

Brexit fans had been sold on the idea that we would leave with all the best bits but it soon becomes apparent that unlike before when we had loads of opt-outs, now we want lots of opt-ins that the EU are not willing to agree. This leaves us in a very difficult negotiating position as despite what all the Brexit fans cry, there never really was a plan and amazingly enough, all the main proponents of Brexit (BoJo, Farange, JRM etc) seem to have skulked into the background with nothing but empty rhetoric to help their cause.

The Remainers look on in feigned surprise when the EU do what the EU was always going to do and don't play ball.  

May is elected, May loses her majority. May now has to depend on the DUP, a bunch of self-interested fanatics to get anything passed in parliament. She comes back from Europe with a deal, a deal that allows the UK to leave the EU but leaves some economic protection. This is not good enough for the Brexit fans and it gets voted down 3 times in parliament because it still leaves us too tied to Europe (how we were ever going to be so untied with all the benefits is of course never explained) and the issue of an Irish backstop (something that was never even mentioned in the Referendum) rears it's ugly head.

Exasperated and defeated May resigns.

The Remainers look on with abject incredulity.

The Tories then decide to have a little vote amongst themselves and surprise, surprise BoJo is elected PM with no mandate from the people, just a few of the party faithful. He then just jumps right in there with a no-deal scenario, one that was never on the cards, never part of the original proposal and in fact was ruled a no-go from MP's on both sides. Despite this, hard core Brexit fans are bellowing that it was always an option and now seems to be the only one available. Most economists and business leaders are warning of the disaster of a no-deal. Health leaders warning of chaos with the NHS stockpiling medicines and desperate about staffing levels. The CBI and TUC all warning about a no-deal Brexit yet this is all brushed aside with a casual 'Project Fear' cry. 

The Remainers are beginning to get REALLY pi**ed off.

Bojo tries to suspend parliament in a deliberate attempt to steamroll through his no-deal Brexit but before then, extraordinary scenes in Parliament when 21 of his fellow Tories vote against him and are subsequently sacked. His own brother then resigns, a fellow Tory defects to the Lib/Dems and a cabinet minister resigns.

Remainers are thinking this is just a complete and utter farce. The UK is an embarrassment. 

Parliament is now suspended for 5 weeks. We are no closer to agreeing a Brexit deal and if anything we are further away. The EU is getting impatient and may not grant an extension to the 31st October deadline, which I think we can all agree is never going to happen.

But yeah. Leave means Leave. We must respect the democratic decisions of some whilst ignoring the democratic principals that have held the country together for centuries. We are 3.5 years later and don't seem to be any further forward because IT WAS A BAD IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING.

So stick your referendum where the sun don't shine. You had a chance to leave the EU and it's been nothing short of a disaster since then. Get us another referendum and we will see who still supports this madness. 

19 minutes ago, Forethat said:

So...what you're saying is that I am completely correct......but...you still want to debate the origin and the content of the message?

 

This is like watching a heroinist with abstinence so bad he's clawing and scratching his skin until it bleeds - you just CANNOT keep to the topic, can you?

"Debating with Brexit fans is like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, sh*ts on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

Also, do you really think someone who does heroin is called a 'heroinist'? 

13 minutes ago, Forethat said:

When making attempts to debate, do argue the facts rather than the origin of the message. My point was that not all agree. Now there's clear evidence to show that I was right. 

 

Again.

And if I ask the foxes if we should have free access to the chicken coup, I'm sure they would agree. However it doesn't prove whether the idea is good for the chickens or not.

Quoting reliable, unbiased sources is more important than being 'right'. There are unbiased economists out there who think that a no-deal Brexit would eventually sort itself out but pretty much everyone else is predicting a big hit to the UK's GDP.

It's easy to quote any 'expert' when trying to prove your point. The trick is to find the consensus of impartial sources and the consensus firmly says you're wrong.

https://theconversation.com/the-economic-cost-of-brexit-is-unavoidable-but-that-doesnt-mean-its-not-worth-it-107913

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2019/08/how-bad-would-no-deal-brexit-be-economy

https://www.cbi.org.uk/articles/no-deal-brexit-is-a-tripwire-into-economic-chaos/

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea. As a reply, you are more than welcome to support your argument with other, less biased economists quotes. I'll read them.

10 minutes ago, Forethat said:

Honest to God, I don't have a clue where you dig up that kind of nonsense. You need to realise that just because you refuse to listen to different views doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

https://www.economistsforfreetrade.com/News/brexit-could-boost-uk-economy-by-135-billion-say-top-economists/

 

*facepalm*

When trying to get your point across perhaps don't quote an established right-wing, Brexit lobby group who's advisory board group includes Jacob Rees-Mogg, Owen Paterson, Matt Ridley and David Jones.

*facepalm*

47 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

Thanking you very much in anticipation.

 

As I'm what they call a Brexiteer I'm sure you're of the opinion that I'm as thick as two planks so I'd be very grateful for any enlightenment you can throw my way on these subjects.

 

But put in plain easy to read English so I can understand it.

Sure. I’ll use crayons. 

4 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

To save me doing the necessary research why don't you spend a few minutes typing a few paragraphs explaining the intricacies of these tariffs.

 

You sound as if you're familiar with them.

 

If they are already in place it won't need a lot of work implementing them will it.

Sure. Let me get right on to that for you sir and whilst I’m there would you like some information on the immigration policy that you always get wrong as well?

For someone so against something for nothing you sure are happy to get something for nothing. 

53 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

We keep hearing about 'a deal' or 'no deal'.

 

When we leave the EU will European nations stop selling us their wine, cars and agricultural produce and will we stop buying it. I for one very much doubt it.

 

Because when all is said and done such trade amounts to a huge amount of vital business. So we've obviously already got deals.

 

So what sort of a deal are the politicians on about. I'm sure such talk is just an excuse or a red herring introduced into the brew by remainers to hinder or stop our quitting the EU.

Typical Brexit fan; literally no idea of what happens but in their mind, it still can't be as bad as staying in the EU. 

Look up the information on the internet (it's not just there to rant on sites like this). Educate yourself to the huge tariffs UK exporters will face when reverting to WTO rules (there's no choice, they're automatic), investigate the cost of tariffs for importers, driving up prices in the UK, see how long the delays for importing/exporting are going to be and find out how long it typically takes to get a trade deal properly sorted out (especially now they have to do it with EVERY single country) and then you might start to understand why many of our Remain fans are so concerned and why we reject Brexiters calling it Project Fear. It's Project Reality.

It's been a long time coming but welcome to the party.  

1 minute ago, JamesBlond said:

Then get out.

Ok.

I'll just join that long line of Johnny Foreigners you want to see 'out' as well.

P.S. Been out for a long time. Hint; this is a Thai ex-pat forum.

8 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

"In a PC world, humour is a capital offence" - Taki

If you think joking about someone's accent is racist, you are a public nuisance.

Anyway, let me explain the joke. The Scots are whining about leaving the Union, therefore at issue is a question of cultural connection. Poking fun at their accent is an example of what we British call 'taking the mickey' - it's a test of camaraderie. If they laugh, then we have a connection (sense of humour) and they can stay. If they get offended, then it's proof that they we have come adrift and they might as well leave. I hope you are now better informed about British culture. And please, stop the 'racism' hysteria - that is way off the mark.

Btw, I am British and my ancestors have been British since... ooh... the dark ages when Britain was nothing but bog and forest. How about yours?

 

Still Scottish.

Still don't get 'the joke'.

I think it's because it's just not funny. 

2 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

Which are the big words? Those are all normal vocabulary for me..

 

Example of social engineering? You mean apart form the positive discrimination which you mentioned? How about political correctness. What do you think all that is about?

 

Creating social and labour policies conducive to business is the ordinary function of government. We don't need inter-cultural superstate interference to do that.  (sorry - 'conducive' means 'helping towards something')

Your pusillanimity is not seeing your faults and pretending they're other than a mask for your own inherent discrimination.

Political correctness was a progressive trait welcomed by many who were sick of the rampant sexism, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia and Bernard Manning jokes about 'darkies' and 'nig-nogs'. Only those still doing such things would ever see it as anything other than the correct thing to do.

'We don't need inter-cultural superstate interference to do that' - but we needed the EU to introduce the Working Time Directive, to champion better working conditions for the working class, to push women's equality, to set global warming initiatives, clean air acts and minimum wages throughout it's member states.

Yeah, those people are just the worse.

4 minutes ago, JamesBlond said:

All the racism baiting is getting boring. As are all the people without a sense of humour.

A Scottish person would understand the joke. If you're not Scottish - or even British? - best to keep out of it. This is why we all have a preference for our own cultures.

I'm Scottish.

I didn't understand 'the joke'.