johnnybangkok

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

How can Pelosi say the house is holding an official investigation when there has not been a vote to do so. She's the speaker, and a speaker is normally supposed to be impartial.

Do try and keep up with the conversation. This has been gone over to death.

There is no requirement under the Constitution, under House Rules, or House precedent that the whole House vote before proceeding with an impeachment inquiry.

They don't have to do it and are choosing not to. It's that simple.

7 hours ago, Misty said:

 

Or simply a slave bot in the disinformation echo chamber

 

"Anyone trying to track the Ukrainian conspiracy stories that were eventually embraced by President Trump is likely to get mired in the same echo chamber of right-wing news purveyors that misinformed voters in 2016. "  - The Invention of the Conspiracy Theory on Biden and Ukraine, Jane Mayer The NewYorker

 

 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-invention-of-the-conspiracy-theory-on-biden-and-ukraine 

Great article. Really highlights why this has got to where it is. Politically motivated Conspiracy theories gaining traction to a gullible readership. 

21 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

I was well informed when I voted.

 

If I am even better informed now, it largely reinforces my negativity towards the EU.

 

Another vote is pointless, I would vote the same way and so would every Brexiteer that I have spoken to. 

Yeah and you’d get outvoted by all the Remainers who will now pay attention and get their complacent <deleted> off the couch and vote. 
Not to mention the new lot of youngsters who are now eligible to vote V all the oldies who have popped their clogs in the last 3 years. 
You don’t stand a chance and you know it. 

27 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

I don't think Lindsey is trumps friend. He is merely courting Trumps base so he can have a go in 2024.

I think he's be an excellent and formidable president...the dems will soil their knickers if he gets elected

somehow.

Is this all you care about? Doing over the Dems? Everything you have said says the same thing. It doesn’t matter how much harm his decision do to the the US, as long as it’s pi**ing off the Dems you’re ok with it. 
People are putting to you clear, coherent, and valid points about why this is a truly awful idea (and you know it’s THAT bad when spineless Republicans are even calling it out). 
If you believe in America first then there’s a bigger game being played (one that’s way over Trumps head) and this Awful decision will come back and haunt us all, especially America. 

There's nothing more dangerous than a man backed into a corner, looking for any possible way out. 

If it's not here it'll be Iran. Anything to change the narrative from impeachment.

This is when he's at his most dangerous.

11 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

Feel free to put me on your ignore list and to read the federalist article I posted.  I will return the favor.

Feel free to throw your toys out of the pram. Your point has been debated to death and proven inconsequential. I'm just trying to move the conversation along. 

1 hour ago, Kelsall said:

As President of the United States, Trump would have been recalcitrant in his duties had he not brought up Biden's conduct during that phone call.  That video of Biden bragging about withholding money unless the Ukraine prosecutor investigating his son was fired was evidence enough of wrongdoing. 

How wrong this is has been pointed out to you in this thread and many, many, many other times in other threads you've been on.

The fact you are still punting this ridiculous point shows either complete willful ignorance, delusion to a worrying degree or just plain old trolling. I can't work out which one it is but if you are proven wrong time and time again as you have been here, can you at least move on to a more challenging counter argument?

55 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Trump could well have committed transgressions.

 

However, this is getting like the #metoo "revelations". When suddenly someone his denounced by multiple people. In this case the whistle blowers can remain anonymous as is their right. 

 

But after the Russian interference debacle, it does look like witch hunts and jumping on the bandwagon,

 

Of course the usual left wing posters jump on anything as gospel and present it as must be fact. Because that's what they want to believe. Just like they're not interested in wondering just how many Democrats have children who've got board seats on foreign companies and other organizations where there main skill seems to be who mummy and daddy are.

 

I'm no Trump fan, but pretending the Democrats are saintly, and as honest as the day is long is bunkum.

 

Trump, for whatever reasons, fell out with the intelligence community. And they've been stirring the pot ever since. I wonder of the Democrats have done the old lefty trick of making sure key appointments to intelligence agencies have, over time, always been filled with people with the "correct political views"? Nah, course not!

I don't know why you insist the Mueller probe was a 'debacle'.  A total of thirty-four individuals and three companies were indicted by Mueller's investigators and although not linked to Russia directly, Mueller has indicated that Trump is at least guilty of obstruction (and probably much, much more).

And when you say 'left wing posters jump on anything as gospel and present it as must be fact' are you referring to the things that are actually coming out of Trumps mouth because I'm not sure how much more factual you can get? He is saying these things. It's an undisputed transcript and he's standing on the WH lawn asking for China's help. We aren't making this up. It's there for all to see. 

Also, we all understand that nepotism is rife in politics (just look at the Trump family) and that 'jobs for the family' are common but that doesn't exonerate Trump and his actions in this case. If Bidens son is guilty of anything (and there is literally nothing to say he is at this stage) then an investigation through the appropriate channels should have been done. But by asking a foreign government to look into a political appointment (again straight out of Trumps mouth) he is guilty of undermining the integrity of US elections, violating the civil rights of US citizens and by calling on a foreign entity to assist in the investigation of a political rival, he is violating campaign finance laws.

None of this is being disputed so if you really are 'no Trump fan' then perhaps you could stop deflecting his actions and stoking conspiracy theories about a partisan intelligence community. It's not helpful and more importantly, it's unsubstantiated.  

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

You have to understand, GroveHillWanderer, that the Federal Election law does not apply to a legitimate request for aid in a criminal investigation from a foreign country.  It perhaps would apply if Trump was indeed requesting aid in the investigation of a political opponent for the sole purpose of causing harm to him.

 

As long as the assumption, I repeat assumption, is that this was the case then your argument might be valid.  But, as has been pointed out before, running for office does not protect one from being criminally investigated.  Remember, Hitlery was being investigated during her campaign as well.  Joe Biden is not protected simply because he is running for President.  Therefore, if the criminal investigation is legit then Trump would be within his rights, as well as within his constitutional duty, despite the fact that Biden is his political opponent.

 

You are making an unfounded assumption at this point.  So are a lot of other people, including lawyers, and especially if they're Democratic lawyers.

 

 

 

“It perhaps would apply if Trump was indeed requesting aid in the investigation of a political opponent for the sole purpose of causing harm to him.”

So, Trump was concerned about protecting Biden from those nasty conspiracy theories? He was looking out for him as a fellow presidential nominee and didn’t want some ludicrous non-problem to topple his candidacy? 
I think we can safely say “........Trump was indeed requesting aid in the investigation of a political opponent for the sole purpose of causing harm to him.”

You just added too many words. 

12 minutes ago, chokrai said:

Biden is corrupt so they should investigate him and his son. Good for Trump give the Democrats a taste of what they have been doing to him for the past 3 years. You know what they say about payback.

And if that’s true then he should be investigated and the truth be out!

So far though there is literally nothing. 
trump on the other hand....

I remember when Trump first came to power how many on this forum who had voted for him saw him as a breath of fresh air; an opportunity to “clear the swamp” and herald in a new era of American politics. They spoke passionately about how change was needed and how Hillary only represented the same old, same old. They brought up good, salient points based on logic, evidence (tenuous at times) and a desire to improve the US.

Slowly but surely they have disappeared to the point all we see now are the most rabid of supporters, full of debunked conspiracy theories, questionable news sources and massive amounts of cognitive dissonance. 
Your man has openly asked a foreign power to investigate a political opponent, yet even when you hear his Undisputed words you cannot accept that those words constitute an impeachable offense. Your credibility and point of view disappears when you cannot see what is clearly presented before you. Why you even need a counter point though is the question. 
We’ve all backed a donkey in a horse race. Perhaps it’s time for you to simply admit you got it wrong and be on the right side of history for a change. 

1 hour ago, Tippaporn said:

Here's another tip.  This one is on how to prevent anyone from asking salient questions.  Yell "conspiracy theory" as loud as you can!

It's a conspiracy theory when it is completely unverified and without material evidence. The former Ukrainian prosecutor has already said there is no correlation to Biden getting rid of his predecessor and when referring to Hunter Biden “From the perspective of Ukrainian legislation, he did not violate anything,” He then went on to say “Hunter Biden cannot be responsible for violations of the management of Burisma that took place two years before his arrival.'

A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation - I don't know what else to call it when it is the very definition of a conspiracy theory.

16 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Im not a President Trump supporter, Im an America supporter. 

 

I think he is absolutely nuts, the way a lot of those guys from NYC who build things are nuts. Unless you have been in that milieu, you wouldnt understand. Go hang around a major contructition site and dont be a snowflake.

 

I think his behavior can be very rational and calculating. I think his strategy on China is excellent, as well as other things he does. Im not in agreement with all of his policies. I think he suffers from the same personality disorders as Obama (narcissism and dissembling), Nixon (paranoia), Clinton/Kennedy (sex crazed and lusty) and LBJ (vulgarity). 

 

I think the whole Big Crazy orange Man with his finger on the nuclear codes is an argument that is as stale as that yogurt in my fridge dated August 25. Remember, the economy was going to crash upon his election and a nuclear war would start, among other things. But we are still humming along. 

 

I ask the same questions he does: Why are the Dems wasting year after year on imaginary scandals and screeching, as opposed to fixing the real problems in the USA? 

 

You asked for opinions and there it is. Now watch the confused and sad emojis get laid on me, as well as the arguments and and hominems from the anti Trumpers. But you guys enjoy, its nap time!

So rather than spread out over 5 ex-Presidents, Trump has all of their problems - narcissism, dissembling, paranoia, sex crazed, lusty and vulgarity rolled into one?

You certainly get value for money with him.

1 minute ago, Tippaporn said:

Here's a free tip on how to prevent the government from investigating you.  Run for President!

My god what are you not getting? Trump can investigate conspiracy theories to his non-existent hearts content (as long as it's legal) but he CAN'T ask a foreign entity to help him do that.

It's not that complicated.

Soooooooo many Trump fans getting their 'news' from extremely questionable sources and blaming MSM when their echo chambers are questioned.

Here's an idea. Why don't you just focus on what's coming out of Trumps mouth? There's no questioning the veracity of things when he himself is saying them, surely? For example - '"And by the way, likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens. Because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine'. 

Now try and deny he is NOT asking a foreign power to drag up dirt on his political opponent which is ILLEGAL as under federal law, campaigns are barred from accepting or soliciting a “thing of value” from foreign nationals or governments in connection with an election. 

He's not even trying to hide it any more. 

51 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

Hard to know how this will end, but it seems the wheels are in motion for an impeachment.

Too bad this is going to happen over something that seems like a technicality, instead of some sort of clear crime or act of treason. Because if Trump get forced out by the senate, America is going to be even more divided than before, Sure the left will be pleased to have a chance at winning the election and getting at the levers of power. But the anger will shift to the right. If they feel that an internal coup took away their legally elected president. You are going to see some violence. And the not weak sister kind of violence we saw from Antifa, they attack only defenseless people and hide behind masks and overwhelming numbers. The right actually has the tools and the training to bring a fight.

It would be really sad to see that happen, but clearly the president has been betrayed by the alphabet agencies and patriots aren't going to get over it easily.

I hope there is another way out of this.

So much nonsense here but let's focus on the 'something that seems like a technicality, instead of some sort of clear crime or act of treason'.

What Trump has done is no 'technicality'. If proven correct (and the transcript seem to back this up), he is guilty of any one or more of the following:-

1. CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATION -  wherein it’s a crime for any American (and I don't think I have to say this includes the POTUS) to ask a foreigner for help winning a U.S. election. Whilst talking of 'favors' he explicitly asks for President Zelenskyy to look into Bidens actions in an attempt to get information that will smear Biden. Not sure how clear you can get with that one.

2. BRIBERY - Where hundreds of millions of aid is offered for help in smearing Biden - not my favorite as it's not clear there is indeed a quid pro quo and it's too easy to argue otherwise but it's possible to argue.

2. HONEST SERVICES FRAUD - Trump allows the aid to go through; Ukraine does him a favour - political representatives are not allowed to do this. It's the law.

3. WITNESS INTIMIDATION - By calling the whistle-blower 'almost a spy', and inferring capital punishment for treason, this could be seen as witness intimidation.  

4. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE - By moving records of the call into a separate system for protecting highly classified documents, obstruction of justice charges could be brought.  

6. CONSPIRACY - Reaching an agreement with others to commit any of these other crimes would set up the possibility of a conspiracy charge.

So yeah, hardly a 'technicality'.

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Trial by Daily Mail ????.

 

Actually given the courts farcical ruling on Prorogation last week, your probably better off being judged by the media than by the likes of Judge Hale in her Kangaroo court ????.

 

 

So now you decide to have a go at the Daily Mail? Didn't see you doing much of that when they printed nonsense about the EU. The hypocrisy knows no bounds.

P.S. There is a reason why I sourced 3 separate publications.