4MyEgo

As he has mentioned that he is an Australian, Australia and Thailand has a Double Taxation Agreement (DTA), and if he states that he is a resident of Australia and pays taxes in Australia, i.e. lodges a tax return annually, then Thailand cannot touch him, so to speak, but if he doesn't lodge a tax return in Australia as a resident, then the Thai Revenue department can ask the Australian Taxation Office, as they have an agreement to communicate with each other, and they will have him for breakfast. He can think he's a tourist and argue his case in front of a Thai Judge, we all know what the outcome of that would be, 180 days, go straight to jail, do not collect $200 (Monopoly) LoL.

I tend to disagree with you (respectfully), you see I am a resident here in Thailand whether I like it or not, and have been so for nearly a decade. I have family back in Oz, bank accounts, a drivers license which I renew every 5 years, and I maintain a Medicare card and renew it before it expires. I also have club memberships, but all of that doesn't make me a resident of Australia. Having kids here that go to school, can make it all that harder to say I am a resident of Australia, that said, the only tax I pay in Australia as a non resident is 10% withholding tax of the bank interest that I earn. That said, there are pluses and there are minuses being a resident of Thailand, and of course you might ask, how do I get to keep my Medicare card, well, if you read the legislation, it says if you are out of the country for more than 5 years at a time, it lapses, so I make sure I return before the 5 years is up, and no, you don't have to pay a Medicare levy if you don't work, think about that for a minute, how many Ozzies are on the dole or pension etc etc and don't pay anything for Medicare, so yes, I am special. The system is there for a purpose, i.e. for me to find ways to get a round it, where I can....LoL Regardless of what you think, Article 18 of the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between Australia and Thailand, grants Thailand the right to tax your age pension if you are considered a resident of Thailand. The above said, if you consider yourself a tax resident of Australia and lodge a tax return every year, as you should, then it is highly unlikely that they can't touch you. However if the Thai Revenue Department asks the ATO if TroubleandGrumpy lodges his tax return annually and the ATO says nope, then you are up S Creek and will be asked to cough up.

I hope to put this to bed as my last ever reply to your posts on the Age Pension not being tax for non residents by Australia, I have highlighted it in bold from your Treasury link and have copied and pasted it below, accept it or don't, personally I have given up on waiting for you to say you were WRONG. Papua New Guinea and Thailand The agreements with these two countries reflect the current tax agreements entered into with other countries. For example, income from land will be taxable in the country where the land is situated and business profits may only be taxed in the source country if the entity has a permanent establishment in the country. Dividends, interest and royalties maybe taxed by either country but there are limits on the tax charged by the source country, while pensions will generally only be taxable in the country of residence. The measures to avoid double taxation will be based on each country allowing a credit for tax paid in the other country. The provision designed to assist schemes designed to attract investment to these countries will be included in both agreements. Anti-avoidance measures will be concentrated on the exchange of Information between tax officials in Australia and the country concerned. However, no country will be obliged to provide information that could not be obtained under the laws of the country to which the information is to be supplied or to disclose information that would be contrary to public policy. NOTE: Above where it says Dividends, interest and royalties maybe taxed by either country, but there are limits on the tax charged by the source country. I am a non resident for tax purposes, Dividends, and interest from banks in Australia are paid to Australia, Thailand gets nothing, suffice to say, this is what I was trying to tell you in an above post about credits, i.e. if the Dividend is (unfranked), e.g. tax not taken out, Thailand can take a slice, example, 15% and Australia the other 15%, or even 17.5% if they wanted to apply the non resident tax applicable and they would be within their rights. I only own shares that pay a (fully franked) Dividend, i.e. the 30% tax is already taken out when I am paid the dividend. Now if I was to buy (unfranked) shares, then Thailand could tax me on the sale of those shares and Australia the balance. Not to get off track here, the above highlighted states: while pensions will generally only be taxable in the country of residence. Accept it, or not, up to you, everyone else here knows what's going on, and I don't expect you to admit that you understand what is going on now, because you would have to admit that you were WRONG all along because you failed to understand, and losing face in Thailand, Buddha forbid that. This is my LAST reply to HK because I am sure everyone including self has had enough of his and of course my posts. To end, I believe that I have prevailed to be right, i.e. what I have said all along, there is no tax payable by non resident Age Pensioners living in Thailand to the Australian Government, only to the Thai Government if they say cough up. Thanks to Norbra for his very valuable contributions with the Ministerial text which lead us to the DTA and Article 18 which put a nail in the coffin, regardless if HK wanted to accept it.

Seriously...... Did you post any link that stated that it was from the legislation ? What I posted is LAW and it appears that you cannot in layman's term decipher it, Article 18 is so straight forward, yet you can't accept it, i.e. that it is LAW. https://peo.gov.au/understand-our-parliament/your-questions-on-notice/questions/what-is-the-difference-between-policy-act-and-legislation-in-australia#:~:text=A law passed by the,Laws are often called legislation. As for credits, I m not an accountant, but I would presume for arguments sake, as a non resident, if I purchased a share in a company in Australia, and that company paid me the dividend (unfranked), i.e. didn't take out the tax, then Thailand would take it's slice, say 15% and Australia the remaining slice of say 15%, I say 15% because shares in Australia that pay a dividend (fully franked) take out 30% tax before they pay you the dividend, and give that 30% to the tax man. Whether we as non residents who own shares in Australia are supposed to pay that extra 2.5% on fully franked dividends, I don't know, as my accountant never asked. So that leads me to the age pensions as non resident, nothing for Australia, only Thailand, i.e. if it wants to tax us under the DTA, I will say it again, there is nothing mentioned in the DTA about credits, and if that doesn't satisfy your ego, then I can't help you any further. As a famous American actor of the past once said, Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I am hopefully that as others have said, that the penny will finally drop, i.e. Article 18 relates to Age Pensions, forget about Article 19, it relates to those who worked for the government and received government pensions etc, regardless if it says Article 18 of the Thai agreement provides that, subject to Article 19, a pension paid to a resident of Thailand is only taxable in Thailand.

Yawn. Prior to replying to a post on Article 18, I emailed the accountant that I used to use when I was paying tax as a foreign resident for certain income derived in Australia, which I have since been able to change that so I don't pay foreign resident tax on it. We won't go into that because it's complicated. The above said, the email from a different accountant came back as my accountant has since retired. I have removed my details and his in the email, but it confirms what I am saying about Age Pensioners not paying non resident tax in Australia. Thank you for contacting us. As we mention on our website, by virtue of financial regulations we are extremely limited in terms of how we can respond to specific questions outside paid professional advice, and that we mention that age pension inquiries should be made directly to Centrelink or, perhaps in this case, the ATO. Unfortunately, we have neither the ability nor the resources to provide access to free advice. All I would mention in general response to inquiry is that pensions are typically taxable in the country of residency - therefore I would normally expect, and this does not constitute advice upon which you may rely, that Thailand would have taxing rights in relation to your Australian age pension. I would also refer you to Article 18 of the double tax agreement between Australia and Thailand. I hope this is of some assistance. Believe what you want, but that has Shawn it up for me even more, suffice to say, I am right, Age Pensioners as non residents don't pay tax to the Australian Government, however, Thailand under the DTA can make Age Pensioners (non residents) pay tax, but since they haven't since the inception of the DTA, regardless of their new tax code, can't see them taxing Age Pensioners of Australia, but they can. As I haven't read anything further on your replies, e.g. I have a lot of catching up to do, I hazzard a guess you still haven't said you were WRONG.

The last laugh is on me m8ty, i.e. when you catch up.

We have discovered that there is no tax for non residents, you are the only one who doesn't seem to have caught up, because you have to answer every post, I dare say you are 3 pages behind. We also know who is WRONG and the loser. On that not, I dare say I am done, enough is enough, and yes I do have a life that I must attend to as opposed to others.

You really should turn on your notifications so that you could save all that time replying to every single post, the latter being the most relevant, but please, go ahead and knock yourself out, I did try to warn you, and also tell you that you were WRONG.....LoL No doubt by the time you get to this post the water would have dried up.....LoL

But wait, there's more......

What about his later post, you are so far behind, struggling to read everything except the latest posts, move along now, time to catch up to reality.

It would appear that you haven't caught up with the posts, that or you are insane. Article 18 (legislation) https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1989/36.html Siam (not legislation), however relevant to the cause. https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relationship-between-the-new-thai-tax-law-retirement-visa-holders-and-long-term-residency/#:~:text=A Double Tax Agreement between,Article 18 of this DTA. It's black and white, clear cut. I am done, enough time wasted leading this donkey to the water, so to speak.

Is the DTA wrong, it's legislation (law), all of the above are WRONG if they have spoken outside of the DTA when it comes to simple terms relating to Article 18 when it boils down to Age Pensioners residing in Thailand as non residents. In simple terms for the layman, there is no tax payable to the Australian Government from the Age Pension if you are a tax resident of Thailand. Do you not understand this. I am not talking about anything else, strictly Age Pensioners as non residents living in Thailand, that pay ZERO tax to the ATO, e.g. no 32.5c in the $. It's game over, admit it, you have nowhere to hide...LoL I will say it again, YOU ARE WRONG !!! LOSER LoL

Now lets put it in simple terms, when I have the evidence, and share that evidence (links) to the person at question and know that, that person just wants to go around in circles, i.e. is full of it, e.g. not prepared to back down and admit that they were WRONG on the information provided to them, then there is nothing more to discuss.

So you won't admit that you were WRONG, considering that there are no winners or losers, your words. I don't see you gloating anymore, your tune has changed, but you have still not admitted that you were WRONG, a key word you used to throw in our faces, come on now, be a man, own up to the fact that you were WRONG, trying to deflect it, doesn't help you grow. I just point out to you, that Age Pensioners don't pay non residents tax, that is what you asked for, but you haven't said you were wrong, deflecting again, nice try, there is only 5 letters in the word. Deflecting again. Do you now agree or disagree that Age Pensioners that are non residents to a country with a DTA don't pay the 32.5c foreign resident tax in Australia, even though the Age Pension is deemed as an income. I am waiting.....LoL

Come out, come out, to play, we are all waiting for your reply to my posts. You did ask me to provide you with more links, and you did say: "No confusion here". "Blake tells Bob he will have to pay 32.5% tax on his pension. Seems clear to me". https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relationship-between-the-new-thai-tax-law-retirement-visa-holders-and-long-term-residency/#:~:text=A Double Tax Agreement between,Article 18 of this DTA. What do you say to Blake now ?

Pretty big pill for him to swallow, oi....LoL

I believe that after reading the DTA, in particular Article 18, (see 3 posts back), that they would have to change that Legislation and I can't see that happening as they are not after Age Pensioners, and as such, they are protected under that piece of Legislation in my opinion.

You asked, but can you accept it, I wait with bated breath for you to admit that you were WRONG, and to make it easy on you, i.e. that you don't read the whole legislation, Article 18 should make it easy for you. https://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1989/36.html Come on, admit it........LoL

Naturally that will depend on whether you accept my interpretation of the findings and legislation provided to me and read here on this forum. I have always said, it always depends on who you talk to, because not everyone is up to speed on legislation, some are good readers and interpreters, others lazy and just buying their time. It's a 50/50 mixed bag, that's why I always search for Legislative material because it's finale. Minimal damage, as Lacessit has stated below: " The first is you can only be taxed on income received and transferred after January 1, 2024. If you can prove what you are transferring is from savings prior to that date, no tax is payable. I've already got screenshots of my savings for that eventuality". "The second is to marry a thai. For someone solely on the OAP, the amount of tax payable after various allowances is fairly miniscule. IIRC, I calculated it as 5000 baht pa". I have a Thai bank account and a Thai wife, but don't have a TFN and until they become compulsory, I won't have one. The Age Pension is a few years away for me, and now that after reading the Article 18 and 19, I am of the opinion that the Age Pension is definitely not taxable in Australia and hasn't been taxable in Australia since the DTA came into existence, hence the reason Age Pensioners i.e. non residents of Australia living in Thailand haven't had to pay tax. The above said, that may all change now with the Amendment of the Revenue Code Act, which came into effect on 1 January 2024 as LosLobo pointed out above. If anyone reading this post who is in agreement with my interpretation, i.e. non resident of Australia i.e. Age Pensions for this topic, are subject to tax in Thailand only, (if enforced) by the Thai Government, give me the thumbs up, alternatively please reply with your reasons as to why you think Age Pensions are subject to the non resident tax of 32.5c to the $. I have copied and pasted Articles 18 & 19 of the below Act, and have interpreted Article 18 2. to be relevant to Age Pensioners living in Thailand as non residents, i.e. are subject to paying tax in Thailand and not Australia. Australian Treaty Series 1989 No 36 DEPARTMENT OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE CANBERRA Article 18 Pensions and annuities 1. Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State. 2. The term "annuity" means a stated sum payable periodically at stated times during life or during a specified or ascertainable period of time under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration in money or money's worth. Article 19 Government service 1. Remuneration (other than a pension) paid by one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State to any individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions shall be taxable only in that State. However, such remuneration shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the services are rendered in that other State and the recipient is a resident of that other State who: (a) is a citizen or national of that other State; or (b) did not become a resident of that other State solely for the purpose of performing the services. 2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions to one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State shall be taxable only in that State. Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State.

Misunderstanding, only those who are over here and are not on the Age Pension, will need to return.

Correct, for those who have been in Australia for 2 years leading up to pension age, they can have it made portable, those returning must return for the 2 years, not 183 days. I say not 183 days because the legislation states that it cannot bend those rules so to speak.

Agree with you and Lacessit. The above said, if it ever did pass, it definitely wouldn't be feasible for lots of expats to return for the 2 year prison term. Others might have to as they will be under the 40k baht amount required as you mentioned. Fingers crossed, as I know HK prays every night it gets passed so he can say, see, I told you so, and if it doesn't, we can ask him what other scaremongering he has to offer us so that we don't get bored.

Agree, if the change ever happens.

Correction, the per month reduced amount of the Age Pension would be 11.960 baht using 23 baht as the exchange rate for this calculation. I previously used the fortnightly amount as the monthly amount, my bad, suffice to say the Age Pension for a single bloke, would still be reduced by $120 per week after the 32.5c in the $ was enforced, and SAPTO came off of that, meaning the pension amount would be around 38,000 baht per month, down from around 50,000 baht per month. I would say that a single bloke could still live off of that here, rents are cheap, food is cheap and electricity isn't too bad, depending on where you live, that said, you wouldn't be running a car, a bike is doable. Workings as follows: $26,000 annual pension x 23 baht per $ = 598,000 baht - a Non resident tax of 32.5c in the $ = $8,450 @ 23 baht - $2,230 SAPTO = $6,220 to the ATO. Therefore $26,000 - $6,220 = $19,780 @ 23 baht = 454,940 baht/12 = 37,911 baht per month.