Hanaguma

...and now the narrative is changing. Mayor Frey now says that Agent Ross was, in fact, hit by Good's car, but not injured seriously enough to say he was injured. NPR saying, ridiculously, that Agent Ross was "pushed backwards" by the car, but wasn't hit. WTF? Respected Senator Adam Schiff proclaimed that Good was not in any way involved in protests, and was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time... And finally, ICE activity in Minneapolis has netted dozens of criminals and hard core bad guys, including those convicted of murder, crimes against children, rape, etc. THESE are the people that the protesters are defending...

In normal circumstances, that is absolutely true. ICE agents cannot just rock up to a car and order the occupants to exit. However; In the case where a person is hindering, disrupting, or interfering with the agents in the course of their lawful duties, they DO have the power to arrest, detain, and order people out of vehicles. And that was the situation here. The ICE guys did not choose a random car and decide to hassle the occupants. Rather, the car's occupants decided to hassle ICE agents and interfere with their work. So, they were liable to arrest.

Have you seen this angle?

Think I saw her hit him in the new video. But that is honestly irrelevant. The legal standard does not require the car to actually hit him. The standard is "did he at that time have a good faith fear for his life and/or safety". Also, does the driver not bear some responsibility? Ignoring and disobeying 4 consecutive legal orders to exit the vehicle must have SOME meaning...

Actually, having seen photos of Mrs Good (2), it IS an understandable mistake. However, placing her in the car at the time of the shooting is less easily explained. She was clearly outside and had been for some time.

You being from Cally I guess it's understandable that you don't realize that lawful orders from police are NOT suggestions and are not up for debate. Renee and her ICE Watch folks are welcome to express themselves with whatever profanity they see fit- First Amendment and all that. Do you really think she bears NO responsibility? Nor her wife, who egged her on? When a LEO gives you a legal order, deciding to ignore him and drive baby drive away is not a clever act.

It doesn't matter whether or not she tried to drive at the ICE agent deliberately or purely by accident. That has no legal meaning. The key is what the ICE agent perceived about the situation. If he felt genuine danger and a threat to safety, then the shooting may be legal.

More accurately, for not obeying a legal order from a Federal law enforcement agent. Not merely an employee. The distinction is important. I wish Renee could get a life, but she chose to put herself in danger and sadly paid the price.

Very true. Women sometimes feel immune from consequences, like they can slap a guy in a bar and fully expect to not get slapped back. Or shout and resist police without repercussions. They are coddled beyond belief. Another logical disconnect; Protesters constantly call the agents "Nazi", "Gestapo", "Thug" etc. Yet at the same time, they feel safe enough to get in their faces, yell at them, throw things at them, etc. Do you honestly think that genuine Nazi/Gestapo/Thugs would put up with that? Or would they put you on or in the ground within a heartbeat. Being able to shout "Nazi thug!" at someone and not have your ass beat is proof that they are not a Nazi thug.

I agree. But that is exactly what one of the deceased's friends called her.

Perhaps more accurately Darwin in action? Protesters feel they are immune to the consequences of their actions. I guess, given the track record of various levels of government in prosecuting their behavior, they may have a point. It's really very simple though. When a person, as a driver, is given a legal order to stop their vehicle and get out, they have to obey. If they don't, then whatever happens afterwards is at least partially their own fault.

On this I agree 100%. We have to be very careful when employing military veterans, especially combat veterans, as law enforcement. In the military, you have two jobs basically- break stuff and kill people. That's it. Civilians are all potential enemies when on the battlefield. Too many cops carry this mentality over to their law enforcement careers. I guess they are seen as good police recruits because they are perceived as tough/strong, have firearms training, and are assumed to be calm under stress. Sadly often nothing can be further from the truth.

I would love to hear some of your 24 techniques to stop a moving vehicle my friend. Taser? Come on. Through the windshield? Shooting out the tires or engine block only happens in movies. You are proving your ignorance of firearms and their usage. The easiest way to stop a moving vehicle is for the DRIVER to stop it. Especially when given repeated lawful orders to do so. Especially when not frightened or confused.

That is very possible. She was obviously trying to irritate or anger the ICE agent as she was filming, trying to provoke a reaction that would look good on social media. Also, her shouting "drive baby drive!" to her wife was hideously stupid.

Or... all Renee Good had to do was obey the oft repeated lawful order of the ICE agent to exit the vehicle. I am still honestly puzzled why she didn't. She wasn't scared, wasn't confused, wasn't in fear. What was her motivation to put herself and potentially others in danger? I'd really like to know.

Fine. How about making it safer for protesters? Because they are gonna get hurt if they go into protests thinking incorrectly that ICE agents have no police powers. Or thinking they are all Gestapo and nazis and the like. Because if you treat them like Nazis, they may just start to ACT like Nazis a little bit. Protest legally. Don't endanger anyone. Don't break the law unless you are prepared to pay the price. And you are mistaken in your belief that the vast majority of Americans are against this. THis issue is what won Trump the election.

Elon Musk's robots! What could possibly go wrong...

And this level of hyperbole and hysteria will lead to what desired outcome for you, exactly? Will it make the situation safer for protesters or more dangerous? How about for ICE agents? For illegal immigrants? It is meaningless posturing and virtue signalling that in the end will only result in more people getting hurt for no reason.

I don't have a "hero leader" but if you mean the response from the Trump administration? They are going way too far in their characterization. Not lying, but exaggerating to a ridiculous degree. I would like to see someone, anyone in political power call for restraint instead of rushing to pour gasoline on the fire.

Did I say that? You may want to read my above post...

Thanks all for your input. My take now is that this is a tragedy brought about by a series of questionable decisions on all sides. Clearly Good and Good knew what was going on. They wanted to creat social media content, wanted to "twist the tiger's tail", wanted to make ICE look stupid. That is why one of them exited the car to start filming. It is obvious that this was a planned disruption. One would block the street and engage with the agents, the other would film. Also obvious that Renee Good was not scared, not intimidated, not surprised. She fully expected to be confronted. I think what she did NOT expect was to be ordered from her car. It was a lawful order and not up for debate. But she took it as a challenge. Her partner then, insanely, shouted "drive baby drive"! This set the shooting in motion. Agent Ross was engaged with Ms Good 2nd outside. She was being antagonistic, but not so badly. He approached from behind and circled the car as she spoke. I have a feeling he never expected the car to move. IMHO his decision to stand in front of it was stupid. By this point, it was obvious that this was a stunt being played by the Goods. But... Renee suddenly reversed, surprising both ICE agents. This was a sudden escalation. Honestly, I don't think she even noticed Ross in front of her car. She tried to take off and assumed this would make good media content- escaping from incompetent ICE goons. Her wife was ready and in position to record the entire interaction. But Ross WAS there. He made a split second decision and shot. Good or bad decision? That is up to an investigation. No domestic terrorists here. No Nazis. No goons. Just a series of mistakes that led to a tragic and unnecessary death.

Yes they do. I am shocked that you do not know this, generally you are up to date on these things. ICE are federal law enforcement officers. Similar to the FBI, they enforce federal law. Any person, regardless of nationality, who interferes with them or blocks them or threatens them in the course of their duties can be legally detained and/or arrested. Anyone. ICE doesn't need the local police to do this. They have the power and legal authourity to do it on their own. Your mistaken attitude here is what causes much of the trouble IMHO. Protesters think they can act with impunity because ICE aren't "real" police. So they take liberties and are shocked that there is reaction. That may be the case in this tragic event as well.

Everyone has an angle that they are playing. Personally, I think the whole "domestic terrorist" thing is crap. Activists aren't terrorists. Nor are government law enforcement suddenly fascists and brownshirts.

Must have been crowded. After all, Renee's actual wife had to get out of the car so she could do a little filming for social media!