kwilco

it's difficult to get an accurate figue as one has to define "alcohol" in a crash - it goes further than "drunk driver(s)"

pity, I've had a full licence for 20 years

How about renewing my 5 year without a visa?

Your argument boils down to ‘I see it, so it must be true,’ which is the exact opposite of how road safety is scientifically analysed. Personal anecdotes don’t trump hard data, and dismissing statistics just because they don’t fit your narrative is just wilful ignorance. Claiming ‘per capita stats don’t apply’ is outright nonsense—that’s literally how international road safety is measured. If you don’t grasp that, you’re not in a position to argue about data. And no, ‘just enforcing rules’ isn’t a magic fix. Countries that actually reduce road deaths do so through data-driven policy, not by blaming ‘bad drivers’—a useless, outdated term. At this point, you’re arguing against research, statistics, and decades of road safety science just to cling to personal bias. If you’re not willing to engage with facts, you’re not worth debating.

sorry that's a typo - 32 should read 2-wheelers - I"m surpised you dodn't work that out - I expect you did and are just fishing around for something to argue about. Not even sure what you think a "32-wheeler" is?

Sorry typo - 32 wheelers should read "2 wheelers"!

you're 50 years out of date - You will never find that in any road safety paper - it is what they have argued against in every successful road safety campaign throughout the world. Do you really think you know something they don't?

Here is a summary of a paper I read recently which basically underlines what I’ve being saying ““Their lives don't matter to politicians”: The necropolitical ecology of Thailand's dangerous and unequal roads” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0962629823001907 Thailand’s high rate of road deaths, is a result of political, economic, and cultural factors it affects mostly the poorer classes. Here are the 5 Es…. Engineering - Poor road design, the lack of safety measures, (engineering) Enforcement - Weak enforcement of regulations, (Enforcement) Education - Insufficient driver education (Education)contribute to the crisis. Emergency - Lack of concern leads to slapdash first responder and emergency services - The concept of necropolitical ecology highlights how government inaction and neglect—rather than direct oppression—result in preventable deaths. Evaluation - A lack of coordination between agencies working on road safety, poor data collection, widespread corruption, and an ineffective lead agency, have weakened the state’s capacity to address this issue Limited public transport forces people, especially in rural areas, to rely on motorcycles and high-speed vehicles, increasing accident risks. Corruption, fragmented governance, and a lack of political will further weaken state intervention, while the public does not exert pressure on leaders to address the issue. The concept of necropolitical ecology highlights how government inaction and neglect—rather than direct oppression—result in preventable deaths, particularly among marginalized groups. This is a "silent violence”, which deprioritizes safety concerns. Without serious government reforms, and an understanding by the general public for safer roads, these issues will continue. We are looking at road safety in an authoritarian context. Hopefully the media will learn th basics of road safety and it will change how they report of road incidents and start to give campaigners a voice.

You really dont know what a fact is?

Last time I used Dr Mac was pre-covid - he was very good and low cost too.

You realise that your post is a complete waste as it neither gives advice or reference the thread?

can you do that?

Thailand is still basically a military controlled government and like all authoritarian regimes, they are obssessed with collecting data on people. THis has been going on since before WW2.

ny time something does digital in Thalland, it makes me shudder. THis is the land of websites by amateurs - presumably made up by the teenage son of the boss? THey don't ask the right questions Aren't easy to read and operate THey make assumptions and don't anticipate common mistakes THeir flow is non existent and ithe end - they simply don't work. ythere will be loads of people clicking on buttons that don't work People who aren't IT savvy enough to deal with it THere will be crowds of people wandering around looking for help. BTW - where will the forms be filled in? Before departure? On the plane??? - with wifi? On arrival? What phones will be able to work?

Staying with a friend - so they know the story? Surely if he disappeared they would have said something?

so do you agree or disagree?

What a great question! Here’s the link to the video…. https://youtu.be/gRuWVGvkgJo Note that nowhere in this video do you hear the expression “bad drivers” -or any links of this to nationality. It highlights a key point: road safety improvements are not exclusive to any one nation or culture. However, some will still try to argue in terms of race and stereotype that "Thailand is different, and these strategies won’t work here"—which implies an unfair assumption that Thais are incapable of change. History proves otherwise. The Global Road Safety is a universal science The evolution of road safety follows the history of the car in each country. Key factors include: Car ownership rates, e.g. the more cars on the road, the greater the potential for accidents. Canges in Society when countries shift from an agrarian to an industrial society impacts vehicle ownership and traffic. Many nations with high car ownership have developed their own automotive sectors not least of all Thailand. The U.S. was the first to embrace private car ownership, yet ironically, it has not led the way in road safety. Western Europe followed with its own automobile industry, and as industrialization spread globally, road deaths surged. The way each country responded depended on its government’s policies. To assess road safety, researchers usually prefer deaths per number of vehicles and distance travelled rather than per 100,000 people. For example, the U.S. has high car ownership and long driving distances., yet its crash rate per mile is lower than in some countries with fewer cars. Some African nations have low car ownership, but once someone is in a vehicle, their chances of a crash are alarmingly high much higher than Thaiand. Thailand’s progress….According to the 2023 Global Status Report on Road Safety, Thailand had a road traffic death rate of 25.4 per 100,000 people in 2021. In the past 40 years, Thailand has been transitioning from an agrarian to an industrial society. It has also developed one of the world's largest motor industries—now ranked in the top 15, surpassing the UK’s. However, many forget that back in the 1960s and 1970s, road deaths in other countries were comparable to Thailand’s are today. So, how Have Other Nations Reduced Road Deaths? - The most successful improvements have been in Northern and Western Europe. Sweden led the way by formalizing years of research into the Safe System Approach—a framework based on the principle that no one should be killed or seriously injured on the roads. The Netherlands quickly followed suit. From the 1980s onward, industrialized nations saw road deaths peak and then decline as governments introduced safety measures. Different countries had varying levels of success: France in particular had road deaths similar to Thailand’s today in the early 1970s but successfully reduced them despite less advanced car safety at the time. Let’s not forget the notorious French priority on the right rule – mirrored in Thailand – that led to the terrible French crossroads carnage The formation of the European Union helped to develop coordinated road safety strategies, precursors to the Safe System, leading to consistent declines in fatalities. The Safe System and the 5 Es The most effective road safety policies follow the 5 Es: Education – Public awareness campaigns and driver training. Enforcement – Strict traffic laws and penalties. Engineering – Safer roads and vehicle design. Emergency Response – Faster medical aid to crash victims. Evaluation – Continuous monitoring and policy adjustments. Nations that fully implemented these principles—including Sweden, the UK, and the Netherlands—have achieved single-digit road deaths per 100,000 people, moving toward Vision Zero (zero road deaths) in some countries. Other countries around the world have also made dramatic improvements by adopting Safe System principles: South Korea, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand all saw significant declines once their authorities embraced comprehensive safety policies. However, the U.S. alone has lagged behind. While the U.S. made progress in the 1970s and 1980s, it never adopted a national road safety policy. Today, it has one of the worst road safety records in the Western world. Road safety improvements don’t come from people suddenly becoming “better drivers.” They result from government-led, data-driven policies. Countries that have successfully reduced road deaths have done so by implementing all aspects of the Safe System, not just selected parts….and not a mention of “bad drivers” anywhere. If Thailand fully commits to a similar approach, there’s no reason it cannot achieve the same success.

apparently not. - there's no such thing as an accident, either

QED

OK - I'm listening.....

What this thread has shown is that people don't know much about road safety, can't assess their own driving skills and don't understand how to put forward an argument of present reasoned evidence because they don't know what it comprises of. Here are some of the challenges for foreign drivers in Thailand: Road Safety, Perception, and the Pitfalls and flaws of Anecdotal Experience Driving in a foreign country presents unique challenges, particularly when discussing road safety. Many foreign drivers in Thailand attempt to assess the country’s road safety using anecdotal experiences rather than empirical evidence. This leads to misconceptions, exaggerated fears, and resistance to statistical reasoning. Discussions on Thai road safety often descend into personal stories about "reckless" drivers, typically focused on four-wheeled vehicles, rather than considering broader patterns and statistical data. However, there are problems with anecdotal reasoning in road safety discussions and how human error and perception affect accident analysis. I would also consider the difficulties foreign drivers face when adapting to Thai road culture. First of all the flaws of anecdotal reasoning in road safety - Foreigners discussing Thai road safety often rely on personal observations rather than comprehensive data. A few common misconceptions include the use of anecdotes vs. data. Many foreigners assume four-wheeled vehicles are the primary source of danger. However, statistical analysis contradicts this. In Thailand, a person is actually less likely to die in a four-wheeled vehicle than in the USA. 80% of road deaths in Thailand involve vulnerable road users—motorcyclists, pedestrians, and cyclists, and 75% of all road deaths involve motorcycles, not cars or trucks. Then there is the misinterpretation of near-misses. Many anecdotes focus on "almost" accidents—stories full of "nearly," "almost," and "should have.". These do not actually reflect accident rates; they are subjective fears, not concrete data. A driver feeling unsafe does not necessarily indicate a statistically dangerous environment. When comparing Thailand’s roads to other countries, foreigners perceive them as uniquely chaotic, yet all countries have reckless drivers. Even nations with the lowest accident rates can provide videos of reckless driving. Measuring road safety requires comparative statistical analysis, not just individual experience. A big misunderstanding of crashes is the role played by human error. Most road crashes occur due to human error, yet many people misunderstand what this actually means. Many assume "reckless driving" is the main cause of accidents, but this is not the case, in reality, most crashes result from everyday mistakes like: o Distraction (e.g., adjusting the radio, checking a phone). o Fatigue or momentary lapses in attention. o Misjudging distances or speeds. o Microsleeps and delayed reaction times. o Misinterpretation of road conditions. Anecdotal evidence and when people actually see a crash occur leads to all sorts of problems, most notably rooted in the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. Many accident reports rely on eyewitness accounts, but human perception is highly flawed. Why? Because witnesses often: o Experience stress, which distorts memory. o Focus on selective details, missing the full context. o Have hindsight bias, where they remember events differently after knowing the outcome. This is why serious accident investigations use physical evidence and sometimes dashcam footage (but even this is subject to major distortions), not just personal testimonies. There are many challenges foreign drivers face in Thailand. Many foreign drivers struggle due to cognitive overload, misinterpretation of road culture, and unfamiliar infrastructure. This manifests as perceptual distortions and stress. Foreign drivers often get the illusion that traffic is moving faster than it really is. Thai roads often seem "chaotic" because lane discipline differs from Western norms. Informal signalling (horns, flashing lights) is has different subtexts and uses, largely influenced by th unwillingness to confront and the concept of Kreng Jai. Pedestrians and motorbikes move in ways that may seem unpredictable. However, Thai road users anticipate these behaviours, meaning they are in less dangerous than they appear. Road Signs and Subliminal Reactions Road signs in general work by Subliminal reactions (automatic responses to road signs), but may not work the same way for foreigners, leading to hesitation. Some foreigners misinterpret road signs even when they are in English. Traffic signals and road markings in Thailand are frankly appalling, they are inconsistent poorly located and often not fully visible. Traffic light rules are vague and different - Thailand uses countdown timers on traffic lights, which many foreigners are unfamiliar with. The occasional "turn left on red" rule confuses those used to stricter regulations. And no-one understands the priority on the left rule or what happens at roundabouts. It can be seen how many foreigners end up misjudging Thai driving behaviour, the result being they often mistakenly assume Thai drivers are rude or don't give way. In reality, things like vehicle positioning and road behaviour send different signals than in Western countries. Thai drivers avoid obstacles instinctively—swerving is common and anticipated, not reckless. The cultural value of "Kreng Jai" (avoiding confrontation) also influences driving behaviour, making open aggression rare. Another problem foreigner need to ovecome is the challenges of Thai Infrastructure, Unfamiliar road layouts like U-turns, new roundabouts, and complex interchanges cause confusion. Poor road markings (faded lines, inconsistent signage) add to navigation difficulties. Road engineering varies, making conditions unpredictable and inconsistent. All this leads to foreigners suffering from cognitive overload and fatigue.Processing new road rules, unfamiliar layouts, and unpredictable traffic causes mental exhaustion. Many foreign drivers don’t recognize their own fatigue, instead they resort to blaming other drivers for stress. So to truly understand road safety in Thailand one has to forget all those preconceptions brought from home and bring all one’s analytical skills to bear on a radically different driving environment; it requires a rational approach to road safety. We can see on this thread that foreigners often misjudge Thai road safety due to biases, anecdotal reasoning, and unfamiliarity. The personal experience they rely on is misleading—only statistics and data provide an accurate picture. Human error is the biggest factor in crashes, but it is often misunderstood. Perception, stress, and cognitive overload make adapting to Thai roads challenging, distorting foreign drivers’ judgments. Rather than relying on fear and anecdotes, a rational discussion on road safety must be based on evidence, comparative data, and an understanding of local driving culture.

what book would that be?

why are people arguing? Do you have a contribution to make?

Done that - I have plenty of contacts in government in industry of the years. To understand how "unacademic" the average expat can be it is useful to see the comments here and see what you are up against. I suppose you could say I'm doing a survey.

"Oh great, more campfire stories. If swapping ‘idiot driver’ tales made roads safer, Thailand would have zero accidents by now. Try looking at actual data instead of just whining about what you saw last Tuesday." - I think some people need to re-read to OP.