kwilco

Road safety is a science – you can’t address it as an after dinner conversation. Your response is the exact opposite of a scientific approach—it relies on anecdotal evidence, personal frustration, and broad generalizations rather than data or research. While no one denies that enforcement plays a role in road safety, dismissing all Thai drivers as 'stupid' and 'selfish' is not only offensive but also completely unhelpful in addressing the real issues You talk about lack of enforcement – This is a legitimate issue, but it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Many countries with high road safety still have strict laws and active enforcement. The question is, why isn’t enforcement effective in Thailand? That’s where we need to focus—not just stating the obvious, but looking at why the system fails and how to fix it. Then comes the stereotyping – “unbelievable stupidity and risk-taking’ – these are totally subjective - Blaming accidents on ‘stupidity’ ignores the actual causes behind risk-taking behaviour. Poor driver education, inadequate infrastructure, lack of consequences, and cultural attitudes toward traffic laws all contribute to unsafe driving. If drivers don’t fear penalties or haven’t been trained properly, reckless behaviour becomes more common—not because people are inherently ‘stupid,’ but because the system doesn’t discourage it. “Selfishness”? – that is a human trait, (just look at this thread!) not a uniquely Thai characteristic. Road safety issues exist worldwide, and in places where people drive more cautiously, it’s often because of the introduction of the Safe System and a scientific approach to road safety based on detailed analysis. Strict law enforcement, better education, and societal expectations—not because people are inherently more considerate. They have to be scientifically introduced. The idea that Thai drivers are uniquely selfish is just lazy stereotyping that ignores the deeper systemic problems at play. the rest shows you don't understand anecdotal evidence - as I said, the plural of anecdote is not data. Your cherry-picked anecdotes don’t prove anything. Every country has reckless drivers and absurd traffic incidents. You claim to have driven 50,000 miles a year in the UK, yet fail to acknowledge that the UK has strict law enforcement, rigorous driver training, and superior infrastructure—all of which reduce the impact of bad driving behaviour. Thailand lacks these, and that is the core issue—not some imagined national character flaw. If you truly cared about road safety, you’d focus on real solutions: improving infrastructure, enforcing traffic laws, and enhancing driver education. Instead, you rely on sweeping generalizations, dismiss scientific analysis, and push a narrative that blames individuals instead of systems. That’s not just ignorant—it’s counterproductive."

This is an embarrassingly naive take. Facts don’t magically convey truth just by existing—context, framing, and manipulation determine how they’re understood. If you think stats can't be misused, you either don’t understand them or don’t want to. Cherry-picking data, stripping context, and using selective framing can completely distort reality while still being ‘technically true.’ Your argument is the intellectual equivalent of saying a knife can’t be used for harm because it’s just a piece of metal. It’s a lazy, willfully ignorant stance that ignores how misinformation actually works."

Reductio ad absurdum - a cheap joke or do you just not get it?

BTW - most foreigners can't wai properly and don't know who or why. I have had a shoe waved at me, years ago due to a mistake I made in my car - if I hadn't been able to wai, I could have been in serious trouble - but most foreigners don't even understand show waving. I've had astounding examples of kreng jai - after working in the motor industries for nearly 20 years I learned from both colleagues and mistakes. I seriously think that many foreigners who have lived in Thailand for decades do so without knowing anything about Thailand and its culture at all - all they know is other expats and the price of Chang.

Sorry but you are using schoolboy arguments and being guilty of over occidocentricity – but it does show how foreigners can’t understand the driving environment in Thailand because they insist on applying their own home criteria. Merriam-Webster’s definition of common sense—"sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts"—is too facile because it oversimplifies a concept that is highly subjective, culturally dependent, and not actually "simple" at all. Simple perception of the situation or Facts assumes universal understanding which is wildly inaccurate – just see how it was being used in reference to driving. The phrase assumes that all people perceive the same situation in the same way, which is patently not true. Perception is shaped by culture, experience, education, and biases—what seems "obvious" in one society may be completely foreign in another For instance a Western driver might perceive that stopping at a pedestrian crossing is "common sense," while in Thailand, where pedestrians often yield to traffic, the same assumption doesn't apply. Yet the western driver hasn’t anticipated this (or even driven in Italy!) Sound and Prudent Judgment is also culturally and situationally variable. What one group considers "prudent judgment" depends on their upbringing and social norms. As we’ve just seen with Kreng Jai. Common sense in driving, for example, varies drastically between countries with different road cultures, enforcement levels, and risk tolerance. The science of road safety is aware of this – but those who play the blame game are stuck in an archaic prism of perspective. Another instance - In Germany, "sound and prudent judgment" on the Autobahn means driving at 200 km/h in the fast lane. In Thailand, such speeds would be reckless because the roads and driving behaviours are entirely different. But America for several years had a 55 mph speed limit

THis means it is unlikely you will ever understand or fit in with road safety in Thailand. Being a good driver regardless of country involves understanding and adapting to the driving environment. Kreng Jai is an aspect of Thai culture th foreigners frequently grossly underestimate because to them it “just sounds too silly” While "Kreng Jai" is a deeply ingrained cultural value in Thailand, it's important to note that it doesn't necessarily translate directly into safe or responsible driving habits. In fact, some aspects of "Kreng Jai" might even have unintended negative consequences on the road. The problem is that whilst Thai people understand this, foreigners, even those who have lived for years in Thailand fail to understand even the basics, let alone how it influences driving. Kreng jai is a double-edged sword It can mean that drivers are more patient and there are potentially aggressive road rage incidents compared to some Western countries until the Thai cultural limit is exceeded – which of course foreign drivers can’t gauge. There is in general less overt hostility between drivers, reducing direct conflicts but as foreigners don’t react “normally” to Kreng jai as they don’t recognise it they then incur the disrespect of other drivers which foreigner misinterpret as Thai bad manners when in fact their behaviour has inadvertently triggered it. There are negative aspects that foreigners don’t realise either…. Apparently Unpredictable driving behaviour due to politeness or hesitation goes over the heads of foreigners when Thai drivers recognise and expect it. Seemingly a lack of assertiveness in enforcing traffic laws and road discipline, a reluctance to address unsafe driving habits in social settings.

Clearly you have no understanding of Kreng Jai.

.. every time road safety is discussed it is inevitable that someone will use the term “common sense”… it is a classic misconception The claim that "almost all safe driving habits come from common sense" is fundamentally flawed because common sense is not universal—it is shaped by culture, environment, education, and experience. What seems like "common sense" to one group may be completely foreign to another, and this is especially evident when comparing driving habits in different countries. “Common Sense" is highly cultural, not universal; driving norms differ dramatically between countries, even when road rules appear similar. What seems like "common sense" to a Western driver—such as strictly following lane discipline, using indicators, or stopping for pedestrians—might not be seen as obvious or necessary in Thailand, where traffic flows in a more flexible, intuitive way. (see my post about rivers in Thai culture) In some cultures, aggressive defensive driving is considered "smart", while in others, politeness and deference are prioritized over strict rule-following. Most people couldn’t even give a definition of defensive driving at home (I hear a big rush to Google??) In Thailand, it is "common sense" for motorcycles to weave through traffic and for cars to expect it. In the US, this is seen as reckless and illegal in most places. Safe driving Is a learned skill, not innate "Common Sense" – as I said most people don’t realise the extent to which they are cosstted by their home countries’ safe systems. Safe driving must be taught and reinforced through training, law enforcement, and public awareness campaigns not by constantly blaming inherently “bad drivers” If road safety was simply "common sense," why would road deaths vary drastically between countries with similar vehicles and infrastructure? Or are you going to make another racist assertion about Thai drivers? Road safety systems and traffic rules exist precisely because humans do not naturally drive safely. For example, seatbelt laws exist because studies show that people don’t naturally wear seatbelts unless conditioned to do so. If it were "common sense," enforcement wouldn't be necessary. Common sense fails when foreigners apply their “home” common sense to unfamiliar road systems Foreigners driving in Thailand often struggle not because they lack intelligence, but because Thai road behaviour contradicts their "common sense" expectations. For instance in Thailand, Merging often happens with different right-of-way rules. (v. priority on the left rule) Many intersections appear to rely on mutual awareness rather than strict signalling but Thai priority rules apply and tinted windows don’t help. (v. Kreng Jai and non-confrontation).Motorcycles behave differently than in Western countries, acting as part of a "fluid traffic ecosystem" rather than strictly following car-like rules. If you want to understand traffic flow in Thailand then you need to understand the rules of traffic on rivers) Western drivers assume cars will stop at red lights because it's "common sense"—but in some areas of Thailand, it's common for motorcycles and even cars to proceed if the road is clear.the fliter left rule is seldom understood by foreign drivers as they can’t read te signs. If safe D driving were common sense,Thailand (and Other Countries) Would Have Low Accident Rates? The fact that Thailand has one of the highest road fatality rates in the world suggests that safe driving is not automatic or obvious.Road safety improves in places where it is taught, reinforced, and enforced—not where it's assumed to be "common sense." Back to the “safe System” - Sweden has one of the lowest road fatality rates because they invest heavily in road safety programs, not because Swedes have more "common sense" than Thais or Americans. Safe roads come don’t come from common sense they come from the 5 Es mentioned before – which have to be adopted in TOTAL

Totally incorrect observation if you were a road user, you'd soon realise how inaccurate your description is. "Manners" is a word many use without realising it is a cultural construct - Thai culture and manners are different and you need to understand them when you drive. Kreng Jai is something that baffles foreigners completely and is exercised on roads - I have listened totally bemused to foreigners who claim to understand Kreng Jai and then try to explain it. Are you aware of how kreng Jai can negatively affect driving behaviour, especially in the eyes of foreigners?

You have failed to engage with real road safety principles and instead have leant on personal bias, cherry-picked comparisons, and anecdotal observations. You persistently fail to grasp that road safety is a public health issue, not just a matter of "bad drivers." - Systemic improvements save lives, not lectures on “responsibility.” Blaming Thai drivers is lazy analysis—understanding why accidents happen and how to prevent them is the real solution. You continue to entirely rely on and consequently overvalue personal observation, which is not a scientific or objective way to analyse road safety. Simply "counting infractions" as a layperson doesn’t provide a meaningful comparison. Road safety analysis requires expertise, context, and official statistics, not casual roadside observations. Without a thorough understanding of Thai traffic laws and road culture, you are not in a position to assess violations accurately. You then resort to selective comparisons and hidden bias you try to compare Thailand to Mexico and Canada in non-scientific terms, but conspicuously avoid mentioning the U.S., despite claiming experience there. Why? Because U.S. road safety statistics don’t support his argument. The U.S. has a higher fatality rate for 4-wheelers than Thailand, meaning the issue is not just "bad drivers" but systemic factors like road design, law enforcement, and emergency response. Then you make a classic false appeal to “experience” & mileage Driving “many miles” doesn’t make someone an expert in road safety. – personal and untutored interpretation of what one sees is not the same as understanding the root causes of road accidents. Road safety experts use structured studies, not anecdotal personal experiences. I’m sad to see you also resorted to unsubstantiated claims & misinterpretation of statistics. The claim that "10 children die daily" is presented without context or source. Are they drivers, passengers, or pedestrians? – you understand the road safety category of “vulnerable road users”? Are they on rural roads or highways? What is the legal driving age? In the US it used to be about 14 in many states. (In Thailand, 15 for motorcycles. – Anyone under 20 years is considered a child under Thai law.) You need to realise that data without context is meaningless and is often used to sensationalize rather than inform. Race - You are displaying double Standards & Racial Stereotyping The phrase “race card” is a classic deflection used to dismiss valid concerns about racial bias. You are blaming Thai drivers collectively while conveniently ignoring similar driving behaviours in other countries. You mentions Mexico negatively but avoid mentioning the U.S., despite well-documented reckless driving behaviours there. Your insistence on focusing on "bad Thai drivers" instead of addressing systemic road safety issues is a clear example of racial stereotyping. Misrepresentation of Foreign vs. Local Driving Behaviour Foreigners who don’t understand Thai road conditions often become a safety hazard themselves. Instead of assuming Thai drivers are inherently worse, a more logical approach would be to examine how Thailand’s road laws, infrastructure, and enforcement differ from other countries. The Real Issue is this - road safety is systemic, not individual Your entire argument relies on blaming individual drivers, which is proven ineffective in improving road safety. (just look at the last 20 years in Thailand) The 5 Es of Road Safety (Education, Enforcement, Engineering, Emergency Response, Evaluation) are the key to reducing accidents— it’s not just telling people to “drive better.” Countries that focused on systemic changes (better infrastructure, stricter licensing, improved enforcement) saw DRAMATIC reductions in road deaths—without needing to blame entire populations.

almost completely worthless - cognitive bias, personal anecdote and the plural of anecdote is not data

Again the media takes over in fact the road deaths per 100k pop are usually slightly lower ver the 2 mani holiday periods - NY and SK

do you actually have a contribution to make to this discussion?

"Nowhere else in the world have I seen people consistency take the kinds of chances and risks in the road, " THis is a false syllogism and appears in many other posts on this thread...... Your post is making a false syllogism about road safety and it goes like this …. faulty reasoning in racial stereotyping for road safety premise 1: some car accidents involve drivers from group x (Thai people). Premise 2: I have seen or heard of accidents involving drivers from Group X.(Thai people) Therefore, Thai people are inherently more dangerous on the road. This is Fallacious because it commits several logical fallacies: Hasty Generalization: It assumes that the few observed cases apply to all Thai drivers – you don’t take into account the reality of large numbers. It ignores the overall accident rates across all groups and doesn’t consider the proportion of drivers from Group X in the population. And something that is so common on this thread - Confirmation Bias: It selectively remembers instances where Thai drivers were involved in accidents while ignoring counterexamples.

So long as people see road safety in Thailand as “bad driving” or in racial stereotypes they will never understand the situation nor will their attitudes contribute to improving it. They need to understand how road safety works – it’s a science and like gravity, bacteria or the periodic table, applies universally. The idea behind Road Safety and systems like the safe system is to create a transport system where crashes CAN”T happen – it has been shown that you can’t rely on drivers anywhere in the world to do this. The changes required to bring about an improvement in this dire situation can be categorised in terms of 5 “E”s … The 5 “E”s The main pillars of the Safe System can be defines as follows: - The 5 “E”s of road safety. For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed. 1. Education 2. Enforcement 3. Engineering 4. Emergency 5. Evaluation 1. Education This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life. The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police. Most people on this thread took ridiculously easy tests – and whilst that may have set them up to start with, subsequently they learned though “experience”, mostly picking up bad habits as it happens. It’s fairly obvious that most of those on this thread need re-educating when it comes to driving and educating road safety. 2. Enforcement Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it. This requires constitutional reforms in Thailand. 3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories …. A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles. · Anti-locking brakes (ABS) · Side impact bars · AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems" · Electronic stability control (ESC) · Traction control · Air-bags · More reliable engine, tyres and components · Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK, USA, EU and Thailand) Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but virtually unenforced in Thailand. B - Road Engineering - The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc. · The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision · Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it. · Better infrastructure and engineering · Better road surfaces · Better signage · More forgiving · Traffic calming · Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide. Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise), not so much a driver problem. 4. Emergency - What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies. It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims. Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained. 5. Evaluation - How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented. Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

I take that s a compliment - I've been writing on Thailand's road safety for 20 years - just check my other posts.

Trouble is that world over most are not "good drivers" - that's where road safety science comes in.

exactly "plain" subjective and anecdotal based purely on prejudice. You are totally failing to be objective and take a scientific approach

OK - just a fine example of the rubbish that is normally exhinbited on road safety - cynicism covering up ignorance. Your comment about Thai people’s driving is not only deeply offensive but also a gross oversimplification of a much larger issue. It’s dangerous and unfair to generalize an entire group of people based on the actions of some individuals. The real problems with traffic in Thailand, or anywhere else, are rooted in systemic issues such as a lack of proper driver education, ineffective law enforcement, underdeveloped infrastructure, and a general lack of respect for road safety. These are issues that affect everyone, not just a specific group of people. It’s critical to recognize that driving behaviors are shaped by societal factors, not race. By shifting the blame to an entire nationality or ethnic group, we only hinder progress and prevent meaningful change. The solution lies in improving driver education, enforcing traffic laws more effectively, and working toward a culture that prioritizes safety, responsibility, and respect on the road. Let's move away from harmful stereotypes and focus on real, practical solutions to improve traffic safety for everyone, regardless of background."

first as mentioned earlier is confirmation bias and the second is that stats man nothing until analysed intelligently wgish is what I mentioned at the beginning about how the media grossly misuses the stats.

Rcist always argue that the things they say aren't racist - sweeping and inaccurate generalisations about Thai driving are racist.

Your argument is based on misleading comparisons and subjective judgments rather than facts. First of all the total number of vehicles is irrelevant—road safety is measured in deaths per 100,000 people, not raw accident numbers. This standard metric allows fair comparison between countries, regardless of how many vehicles are on the road. Then "Scooter" is too vague—the term means different things in different countries. In Thailand, 50% of registered vehicles are 2-wheelers, your reference to scooters is no actual real group of vehicles You lso get the figures wrong The more accurate figures are - 75% of road deaths in Thailand involve 2-wheelers. and 80% involve vulnerable road users (motorcyclists, cyclists, pedestrians). Take away these categories, and 4-wheeled vehicle occupants remain statistically less likely to die in Thailand than in the US. Blaming drivers ignores the real problem—Thai roads are dangerously designed with inconsistent enforcement, poor crash response, and little accountability for infrastructure. Just telling people to "adjust" to unsafe roads is not a road safety strategy—it’s an excuse to ignore systemic failures. Instead of making subjective claims about Thai driving, we should focus on scientific, proven strategies to reduce fatalities—just as other countries have done.

Road safety is a public health issue—its goal is to protect drivers and other road users by creating a safer road environment. Drivers everywhere make mistakes; this is a constant, like gravity or a round planet. There is nothing inherently or racially different about Thai drivers compared to those in Europe or the USA. All these regions have faced similar challenges, and they improved safety by adopting scientific, data-driven approaches—not by simply telling drivers to "be responsible," which has never worked anywhere. The foundation of all effective road safety programs can be summed up in the 5 Es: Education – Raising awareness and improving driver training Enforcement – Consistent application of traffic laws Engineering – Designing safer roads and infrastructure Emergency Response – Rapid and effective medical care after crashes Evaluation – Analyzing data to improve policies For Thailand to improve road safety, authorities must embrace this evidence-based approach rather than relying on blame and personal responsibility alone.

Your question is based on assumptions, not facts. Fatal accidents don’t happen just because of reckless drivers—they happen due to a combination of factors, including road design, enforcement, and systemic safety measures. You claim Thailand has an unusually high number of fatal accidents on ‘straight, dry highways’ but ignore the actual data—statistically, you are less likely to die in a four-wheeled vehicle in Thailand than in the USA. This completely undermines your argument that Thai drivers are uniquely bad. Furthermore, road construction and design in Thailand often create hazards—poor lane markings, sudden merges, unprotected intersections, and lack of enforcement of speeding all contribute to crashes. If you truly want to understand why accidents happen, you need to look at data-driven causes, not just personal anecdotes and stereotypes.