007 RED

13 hours ago, Aditi Sharma said:

How long can they hold you in there? Good God, it seems you can be in there for as long as 5 years!!! So one is basically an undertrial right? How can The Girl inform the South African embassy when she is sent there - God Forbid. And what can the embassy do to get her out of there?

Sorry I couldnt help relating this to this other story on the forum:  Overstay: Flight booked but not enough money to pay fine.

Do they lock up women separately at the immigration detention centre (IDC)? .... Males and females are kept in separate areas.

How can The Girl inform the South African embassy when she is sent there?  .......  Immigration will automatically notify her Embassy that she is being held at the IDC and the reason for her detention.

What can the embassy do to get her out of there?  ...... Basically nothing.  They will give her a list of lawyers, contact her family to let them know what is happening and ensure that she is detained within the terms of the legal procedures.

6 minutes ago, The Girl said:

Hi. In as much as it is very risky to do so, I have resorted to spending at least 7-8 hours at the language center per day (incl. weekends). I have raised an additional of 2k after pawning some stuff. So I need 8k  by next week. Remember that I had 10k already.

 

Everyone seems to be confused by my story, and rightly so. Basically, I allowed myself to overstay with the hopes  that upon my passport arrival I will exit via land boarder, pay a small fine and then return. When I applied for a new passport, I had 1 month valid visa. When the embassy extended the passport arrival date to 4-6 months (which is the height of my issue) - I still decided to wait hoping it might be sooner than 6 months (most regrettable mistake ever). Right there and then, I should have just left Thailand immediately as I was already aware of the ETD - but they need a confirmed flight ticket to issue an ETD.  Now low on cash, I started fundraising from family and friend. This is why it took long for me to leave. I couldn't obtain an ETD without a flight ticket.  Now that I have a flight ticket and an ETD - I can't leave without 20k fine. 

 

Also, my embassy is NOT to be blamed for this, I am. Rules are subject to change without notice. My fault was waiting for the passport AFTER I was notified that it will no longer take 2 months but 6 months. I still waited because of flight bookings an ETD. Now I am in mess that could have been avoided much earlier. I hope others learn to leave asap because "Hope deferred makes the heart sick" 

Many thanks for clarifying your situation and admitting that it was your own fault.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, you've openly informed the world (including any Thai immigration officials who may be monitoring this forum) that you have overstayed by 7 months and will be travelling out of BKK on Kenyan Airways in the next week or so.  So given that information, and the fact that there is only one Kenyan Airways flight per day,  it is not going to be very difficult to identify you as you attempt to clear immigration at BKK.  I previously advised that you not make further comments regarding work.

Given the fact that you have also now admitted to the world that you are working (assumable without a work permit) to raise the funds for your fine, it is possible that the IO's at BKK may start asking questions regarding your finances during that past 7 months and they may well hit you with additional problems, namely illegal working and additional fines.

All I can say is that I wish you the very best and hope that you do get back to SA without further problems.

6 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

A Kenya Airways economy class flight on October 1 , 2017 from BKK to NBO costs 35, 918 Bahts. So then...

I suspect that because of the OP's limited financial situation, she purchased the cheapest economy fare available.  Unfortunately such fares carry a very heavy penalty for cancelation/no-show prior to departure... in some cases it can be as much as 50% of the original fare.  She would need to look very carefully at the airlines T&C of booking before making any such decision. 

3 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

What are the chances that they will waive off the part of the fine she wont be able to pay on the strength of the ETD and the ticket to Kenya?

On a scale of 1 to 10.... where1 is little chance and 10 is every chance.... I would suspect ZERO chance that immigration will waive all or part of the fine.   Common sense would indicate that if they did it would open the floodgates for everyone to claim that they only have 100Baht when departing and confronted with a overstay fine.

10 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

I think OP's country's mission have a lot to answer for. They have got to help her in this. No country should allow its citizens to be exposed to prosecution for no apparent fault of their own . The Thais have their rules and we ought to respect them even if it extends to being arrested questioned and jail time but foreign missions have a role to play in bailing their citizens out. I think OP should petition her embassy for financial assistance. Surety can be obtained from her relatives back home. 

I think that you need to go back and read what the OP said in her previous posts.  She indicated that there was a miscommunication between her and the Embassy ..... but she also accepts that the 7 month overstay was her own fault.   IN posy No. 96 she states:  "The issue spiraled out of control and before I knew it's 7 months. The calender is an enemy of an overstayer. My fault for treating it with no sense of urgency. My fault. Period".

I am fairly sure that when she reported the loss of her passport to the Embassy they would have automatically suggested an ETD to enable her to get back home, but no doubt her focus was on replacing her passport.

Regarding her Embassy assisting her.... Like all Embassies and Consulates around the world they only offer very limited assistance in cases like the OP.  Yes, as a last resort they sometimes are able to assist financially, but the OP would need to have a reasonable credit history back in SA and have guarantors that will pay back if she defaults.

5 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Correct.  If the ETD cannot be used to enter another country (in some cases they can) - as in, "stamp in and stay" - then my suggestion cannot help. 

 

Ok - I read back a few pages but missed that. 

FYI - It very much depends upon the Embassy (country) issuing the ETD.... Normally the ETD specifies the country of departure, country of destination and if applicable any countries of transit (maximum 5).   So if someone was stranded in Spain for example and returning to UK by train their ETD would specify transit via France and possible Belgium.

In the case of the OP she will depart BKK and transit in NBO for onward flight to SA.

1 minute ago, Aditi Sharma said:

Well transiting is what she needs to do now before getting back home and dry and as she promised getting the proper visa and return ticket. 

Transiting = getting off one flight, remaining airside at the airport, and then departing on another flight - not entering the country.  The OP will do this when she flies from BKK to NBO where she will transit onto a flight to SA.

9 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Just 2 questions to the OP:
1. Is your existing flight refundable in whole or part?
2. Is it permissible to use your ETD to travel anywhere other than to your home-country?

If yes to both, consider refunding the expensive ticket, taking a cheap flight to Cambodia or Vietnam, and using the remaining money from the ticket-refund and cash you have to pay Immigration. 

Better teaching gigs are available in both Cambodia and Vietnam, and it is easier stay legal doing so, and stay in general, than it is in Thailand.

JT... good suggestion, but...... most ETD are only valid to enable the person to travel back to their home country.... it is very unlikely that another country will allow entry on an ETD other than transiting.

OP... Please be cautious what you say on an open forum, especially regarding working without a work permit given the problems that you already face concerning your overstay.

You have already informed the world that you have overstayed by 7 months and that you have a ticket booked on Kenyan Airways in a couple of weeks time.

As there is only one flight per day departing BKK at 01:30am, you could be tipping immigration off of your pending departure and they could start asking additional questions regarding your finances during your overstay etc.

Good luck with sorting things out.

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The new TM7 form says it in english.

Wow... another enhancement... now in Thai & English... wonders will never cease.

I agree with lopburi3... 4x6cm is the photo size (shown in Thai) on the back page of the TM7.  It is best to get an up-to-date photo as my local IO sometimes check your previous application.

2 hours ago, Mattd said:

Not really on topic, however, this subject of APIS or APPS (as the Thai's call it) raises an interesting thought, if a person, such as the OP, purchases a non-refundable ticket in good faith with an airline and boarding is subsequently denied due to the country of destination sending the 'do not board' message to the airline, then would you be able to legitimately claim a refund, as it is entirely feasible that you may not know that you are not allowed to enter the destination country, or, as it appears to be in the case of the OP, it is a mistake.

Seems to me the system is inherently flawed in someways, the refusal should come at the time of booking and the booking then refused, unless the reason for denial happens after booking the ticket.

An interesting point.... But I would wager that buried in the small print of the airlines terms & conditions of carriage there will be a clause that says they are not responsible for a passenger being denied travel by an official government agency.  I suspect the same will apply to travel insurance.

FYI .... Although many airlines collect the passenger information at the time of booking, most send it in 'bulk' via APIS to the port of arrival approximately 24 hours before departure, so they would not would not be able to 'block' a booking.  Only last minute bookings are sent individually within the 24 hour period up to 1 hour before boarding. 

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think this post is correct as to why he did not have a problem before.

New passport number was used the first time for APIS. Now old and new numbers are linked.

I suggested earlier that he have is old passport with him the next time he travels to show if there is a problem.

Joe .... FYI .... when a passport number is passed to the Thai Immigration via APIS, the immigration system will do it's normal checks.  If the passport number is known the immigration system checks to see if there is anything untoward or not and then sends back the appropriate code to board/not to board.  If the passport number is not known the immigration system then cross checks against other data e.g. Country Code; Gender; Date of Birth; Family & First names.  If there is no match the immigration system records the new information.  If there is a match with an old passport number then the immigration system links the two numbers together and sends back a corresponding code to accept or deny travel.

In the OP's case, when he travelled in May the APIS was not operational for TG so TG would not have been made aware that there  may be a problem regarding his immigration status.  The system became active in June, hence when he tried to travel in September TG would have sent his details to the Thai Authorities via the APIS (which would have linked his old & new passport numbers together) and TG would have received a feedback code back indicating deny boarding.

FYI ..... APIS not only send passenger information to the immigration system, but also customs and various security agencies, any of whom could put a block on a person travelling.

2 hours ago, darrendsd said:

Unless you have direct access to the APIS system you are just speculating, you like the OP and everyone else here cannot give a definite reason as to why the OP was refused boarding the 2nd time

 

FYI it is normal practice for anyone who has been blacklisted in the past to be questioned by Immigration, this has nothing to do with APIS, the details of the blacklist would have been on the I/O's system, it has been like that for years and has nothing to do with the APIS system

Darren  ..... Your quite correct in so far that I don't have direct access to the Thai API system (even if I do I would not be admitting it on an open forum), and that yes you could say that I am speculating.

That said, my speculation comes from over 10 years working on the development of eBoarder Control Systems as a senior security advisor following the aftermath of 911.  Based upon considerable experience from introducing the APIS into a number of countries I am well aware of the many problems that can be encountered when the APIS is linked into various local agency databases.

Having acted as a consultant to during the initial introduction of the APIS within Thailand, I have sound knowledge of when it was implemented, which Government databases it is connected to and in what order airlines became operational on the system.

It is from my experience that I gave my advice to the OP which, given the laws of probability, are fairly accurate.

13 hours ago, monkeymind said:

Thank you for all the very useful help. I'm female, and I dont drink, so I definitely wont stink of booze and hopefully I don't need to shave :)

 

Permit me one more question if you will... ? In the worst case scenario, if I flew to KL tomorrow to reapply and was denied, would I have to fly home to the UK to apply for a new passport?

 

 

Regarding your comment about returning to the UK to get a new passport.... Don't bother.... The moment you hand the new passport to the Thai IO on arrival, and they scan it into the system, your new and old passports will be automatically linked (within seconds), so the IO will see your overstay details.

13 hours ago, micky pal said:

Thanks for your reply I really appreciate that cuz it helped me understand most of the things . But last time in the month of may I had used Thai airways , the same flight TG314

Micky......  As I indicated in my previous post, it is possible that when you took your flight to Thailand in May TG were not operating the Thai APIS.  So when you checked-in for that flight TG would not have been aware of any problem(s) with immigration and you were allowed to fly on that occasion.   This would seem to be confirmed by the fact that you were questioned about your previous overstay by immigration when you arrived at BKK on that occassion.

When you tried to fly to Thailand again in September, TG refused to board you because they had received an APIS code indicating that there was a problem with your immigration status.  This would seem to indicate that between May and September TG went live on the APIS with the Thai Authorities.

I hope this explanation resolves your concern.

12 hours ago, micky pal said:

...... But , I'm just wondering that how could I be blacklisted till now when  in the month of may I was admitted into thailand at the suvarnabhum immigration ??? That question is perplexing me 

Micky... Sorry this is a longish post, but hope the information helps you understand and resolve your problem.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, APIS was introduced into Thailand in the early part of 2016.  That doesn’t mean to say that the system went live from day one.  It has been gradually introduced one airline at a time over some considerable time.  This was to allow each airlines to accommodate the requirements within their own systems (plus staff training etc).  That said, many of the major legacy airlines would be familiar with the APIS as it has been a requirement for a number of years in many European countries and the USA.

I suspect that when you travelled Thailand in May 2017 the airline that you used then had not been linked to the Thai APIS at the time, hence you were allowed to travel.  Unfortunately, when you checked in for your flight in September, TG were fully operational with the Thai APIS and hence they refused your boarding because the feedback code which they received indicated an immigration issue.

I have a feeling that the error which caused your denial to board code being sent back to TG by APIS is as a result of a simple (or stupid) date problem.  The APIS requires dates to be entered in ‘western’ format e.g. year = 2017, but if the clerical person who entered your ‘ban’ details into the immigration system did so in Thai date format (year = 2560), and this was not automatically converted to a ‘western’ year, this would mean that you are banned from entering Thailand for the next 543 years  .

You mentioned that when you arrived at BKK in May 2017 the IO questioned you.  Clearly he/she would have seen the details of your 'ban' on their computer screen when they scanned your passport.   Obviously, he/she would know that 2560 was the current year in the Thai calendar and that your ‘ban’ had expired, thus they allowed you to enter.

Getting the problem resolved is not going to be easy.  Whilst you can contact your local Thai Embassy/Consulate, I personally would not give much hope that they will be able, or willing to assist.  Thai Embassies/Consulates around the world only have very limited access to the immigration system.  All they can do is send details of visas issued to immigration, they will not be able to see what is held about you on the immigration system or make any amendments to the system.  It is also doubtful that they will take up your concerns with immigration (too much extra work for no reward).

You’re other options being:

1)  To write to the immigration chief or the Minister of the Interior (who oversees immigration) and explain your predicament and request their assistance in helping you to resolve the matter – possible but a low chance of success, or

2)  Employ a solicitor in Thailand to try and resolve the matter on your behalf – expensive and no guarantee of success, or

3)  As previously suggested, fly to a neighbouring country and then cross into Thailand via a land border crossing (you may get the same initial questioning that you had when you arrived at BKK in May 2017, but the IO will see your ‘ban’ has expired and allow you to enter Thailand).  Then go to immigration HQ in BKK, and in a face-to-face meeting with an IO explain your case and ask for assistance in resolving the matter (suggest that your GF accompanies you to help with translation if necessary) – reasonable chance of success.

Good luck.

17 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

The OP was using a new PP

 

He had already flown here after his ban and was refused the 2nd time

 

It seems to me that this is a issue with the Airline he tried to use the 2nd time not updating their systems,

 

 

Darren.... If you go back and read the OP's original post (No.1)... he states: " I was offloaded and was told that I had some issue with immigration due to which the system isn't able to issue me the boarding pass ". 

This is a fairly good indication that the problem lies with the APIS and Thai immigration database possibly having incorrect info in it.... hence the APIS feeding back a do not allow to board code.

1 hour ago, darrendsd said:

This would explain why the OP was allowed to fly the first time but not the 2nd, maybe the Airlines system had not updated that his ban had finished

 

If the OP has a GF here it's possible he will travel here frequently and if he uses another Airline could run into further issues again

 

Hence the need in my view to get a Official letter from Immigration stating his ban has expired or when he books his next flight explain to the Airline about the situation  and that he has the letter of proof so they are forewarned if anything comes up on their system when boarding

 

 

FYI - The airlines will not have any knowledge of the OP's ban unless the check-in clerk goes through every page of his passport and knows what a banned stamp looks like (which is highly unlikely given the need to check passengers in as quickly as possible). ... when the airline sends the basic passenger data to the Thai Authorities via the APIS they only receive a code letter back which indicates either OK to fly or do not allow to board... No reason is given for denial of boarding.

I'm not sure that a letter from Thai immigration will help... As indicated above, the airline will only go with the APIS feedback and may consider the letter to be a fake.... they dare not risk allowing him to fly after they get a deny boarding feedback code - they will have to bear the cost of repatriation plus hefty fine if Thai immigration refuse him entry.

As indicated previously, he could try to get immigration to correct the possible error in the system but that is going to be difficult (loss of face on the part of immigration) or fly to a neighbouring country and come into Thailand via a land board crossing.

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

So the immigration department have not implemented their systems correctly. I am not surprised.

I'm not sure about immigration not having implementing the system properly... more likely a case of human error entering incorrect date information... What's that old saying in the computer world?   Garbage in - Garbage out

2 hours ago, pontious said:

Make sure you check your bank statements for debit/credit card. Mine today shows 52 pounds x 2 = 104. Will have to phone embassy today to get 52 pounds back.

You may do better to email them with the details and request reimbursement.  [email protected])

They do tend to respond fairly quickly to emails and you will have proof of correspondence.

Good luck

1 hour ago, TKDfella said:

This was a reply to an email I sent to BE;

'A letter to confirm your pension/income is available upon producing original supporting documentation of proof, your passport, the fee (currently Baht 2,340).  Your application can be made via the post with a copy of your passport but you must include the original proof of income, postal order for the letter currently fee Baht 2340 plus an additional Baht 100 for the postal administrative return of the letter and your original documents.'

Note the proof of income in their reply. I contacted them by phone to clarify proof of income hence the list I quoted earlier. SAE was preferred as it assists in speedy replies.

The information that you have been given is incorrect for several reasons, namely:

The request can now be made by email - so how do you attach the originals?   You can only attach scanned copies.

Many pensions providers no longer send 'payslips' - these are often only available online, so you can only provide screen print copies.

The BE no longer accepts postal orders - now needs to be bank draft or credit card.

Take a look at the info page on the BE website.  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-obtain-a-pensionincome-letter-for-thai-immigration

Did mine a couple of months ago by email - attached copies of screen shots of payslips and paid by CC, back in a few days.