twix38

one of the few business operations that make a profit for foreigners is Estate Agency. Unregulated and in a mini boom. Also practices that are illegal in the West such as the Net price, whereby the agent will add all costs and try to sell at an inflated price in order to keep anything extra. The net price ONLY is given to the seller and the agent keeps any balance in addition to their agreed commission.

This business is profitable largely inspite of the Thai laws/rules etc and not because of them. The corruption aspect assist the unregulated market and the property boom of recent years has led to many Estate Agents. The market and practices in Pattaya are a scandal as reported by the Pattya Mail last April and Sunbelt services in another thread. I was today asked to pay 100,000 Baht to one agent as well as my commission to the agent I registered with, if this other agent introduced their potential buyer and he actually buys!!! So 3% commission to my estate agent and a further 100,000 to another agent who actually had the potential customer, as they work together. I said no and that was the appointment over!

Otherwise, most (nearly all) other foreign companies have their work cut out just staying afloat. Believe me I know many of them, who privately admit it's tough and the extra requirements etc etc are a big disadvantage and many don't really understand what they are letting themselves in for or the additional hassles.

I agree to a sufficiency economy. Just enough foreign currency converted into Thai Baht to meet expenses with an emergency float, on an ongoing basis and don't let the buggers have a Baht more!

Thanks for help Naka,

Looking like KL is going to be my choice for March, so........

No need for Malaria tablets? Assume KL is non malarial, but are there even Mosquitoes or not really an issue?

Anyone stayed in a good quiet hotel that they can recommend from experience?

Any places to visit apart from petronas tower, little india, china town, central market, KL building, batu caves?

Any trips or near by places that are a must see?

Also assume as I do not need to take any USD with me, that I can just withdraw Malasin Ringgits out of Many ATM that are all around?

Thanks again

I thought it was a bit harder for over $20,000.

For instance sale proceeds of a house/Condo sale cannot be transfered out without a Tor Tor 3 form having been acquired on purchase and then the original purchase value can be transfered (not any profit made, as I understand it)

It is not always straight forward to take your money back home if sizeable and $20,000 a day can take a hile and cost a lot, so hopefully over that amount can be achieved. Not simply a matter of a transfer whatever amount though.

well said Rogerinthai,

Cyberstar really needs to expand his/her thinking and so do many others who can't see the wood for the trees. It comes down to the rule "don't bring in more money than you can afford to loose" Time and time again this is the governing rule of Thai investment.

It's further evidence of the unfair status that foreigners have to operate in. Of course it is nothing to do directly with a business. It does relate, however, to my strong point that it is an unfair and daunting task to financially survive here as a foreigner when so many things are against you by law and design.

Whether a business, a bank account, a corrupt official, and numerous laws to benefit Thais and disadvantage foreigners. It's their land, so fair enough, but I certainly don't want to help them out!

Surely anyone who has read my posts and has a grasp of the general point can see this is more supporting and related information.

Cyberstar, are you really unable to see a common thread and a clear link to the message I am expressing? It's related, obvious and just as I said "Thailand is not a good place to do business" for a foreigner, or invest in now either, at least in cash.

I wonder what law or rule will be amended or introduced next week. Whatever one, you can bet it will not help the foreigner!!! Wake up.......... and Cyberstar..sharpen up!!

Further evidence today (if any were needed) that Thailand is not a good place to do business. There is a new Government directive to ban foreigners from opening any more fixed term bank accounts. We just have to settle for our funds getting 0.75% and the Banks making the profit.

... and exactly what does a fixed term bank account have to do with doing business? ... Everywhere - including Thailand - business means taking risks with ones money, not letting it sit dead on a fixed term account. From that post, I gather you have no actual experience on what you're trying to promote yourself as an expert on.

After advice I am now thinking of a 5 to 7 day visit to Kuala Lumpur to do my Thai border run in March.

Does anyone have experience regarding flight (looks like airasia.com are fine)?

Accomodation: Want good location, quiet, comfortable, safe and reasonably priced. Any suggestions?

Tourist attractions?

Visa requirements?

Do and don'ts?

Safety?

Take USD with me? If so how much?

Assume plenty of ATM machines?

Thanks in advance.

How much was the Taxi from SR to PP, please? and how long does the journey take?

Am keen to know for sure if there are indeed ATM's in PP?

Ankor Wat is well worth a visit. IMO 1 day is enough.

You could fly to Siam Reap, then take a boat up to Phnom Penh as the roads are very rough, and then fly back from PP. Clean acom can be found in the 5-10 USD range if you look around a bit.

Took a taxi from Siam Reap to PP just last November. It's now a very smooth road and faster than taking the boat (I took the boat from PP to SR).

Thank you SunbeltAsia.

I have only investigated 2 agents here in Pattaya. They both do it regularly and one of them told me that most do it.

Why do the authorities not crack down on this if it is so common and well known. In the West it is simply illegal. Here it is common and permitted knowingly by all, except the poor unsuspecting customers.

Case confirmed. Case proven. Case awaiting action by authorities and will probably remain so for years to come.

Further evidence today (if any were needed) that Thailand is not a good place to do business. There is a new Government directive to ban foreigners from opening any more fixed term bank accounts. We just have to settle for our funds getting 0.75% and the Banks making the profit. As per below extract.

"My wife told him (the bank clerk) that I wanted a 12 month Fixed Interest account and he responded that "as of today" Bangkok Bank are following a new Government directive that prohibits "Farang" from opening a new account (Fixed Rate Deposit). "Farang" can now ONLY open a standard Savings account. "

Indeed Flatlander,

Think very hard and then answer, No. For the reasons I gave and many more you would encounter in your stress filled probably unprofitable working life here, it doesn't really need that much thought when you get told the truth and know the facts to see that it's a risk too far........far too far.

Well done in anticipation. You are immediately some 2 million Baht better off just for not having to set up a company to trade.

Invest this in a company called Vialogy on the UK AIM stock market and take me for a beer ;-)

Thanks for the replies. By the way, re the negativities about setting up business in Thailand, I've heard a lot about that and I am wary. I wouldn't consider it unless a lot of research etc makes me as sure as is possible that it could work. Could be a long way down the line!

I need to do a Thai border run in March and have decided on Cambodia.

Choosing between Siam Reap and Phnom Penh, I think I have chosen Phnom Penh as although missing Angor Wat (which I think I can miss without too much regret, although never having been I don't know what I am missing perhaps). However, there is no Malaria in Phnom Penh and seem to be a few decent tourist sites for a 5 to 7 day visit.

Any advice in general from seasoned travellers and visitors to Phnom Penh?

Also

Are there Visa ATM machines available?

Best airline for flight from Bangkok?

How much USD should I get in Thailand before leaving?

I get a visa on arrival at their airport, right?

Tips on what to do for a week's stay/what not to do?

Where to stay - accomodation (safe, comfortable, quiet, good location and reasonably priced, say up to maximum USD 45/night, preferably less)?

Any other comments?

Many thanks

yes do it the proper way and don't risk it. They want foreign currency coming into Thailand, so don't convert it before you send it.

Not only simply and safe to keep to the rule, but a better rate anyway at the moment and for a while at least.

It's not really a worthwhile question to continue with, when you have the answer. Just send the currency and get it converted in Thailand.

Indeed Flatlander,

Think very hard and then answer, No. For the reasons I gave and many more you would encounter in your stress filled probably unprofitable working life here, it doesn't really need that much thought when you get told the truth and know the facts to see that it's a risk too far........far too far.

Well done in anticipation. You are immediately some 2 million Baht better off just for not having to set up a company to trade.

Invest this in a company called Vialogy on the UK AIM stock market and take me for a beer ;-)

Thanks for the replies. By the way, re the negativities about setting up business in Thailand, I've heard a lot about that and I am wary. I wouldn't consider it unless a lot of research etc makes me as sure as is possible that it could work. Could be a long way down the line!

Was it something small or a face lift or big operation?

I think it would be good to know if the surgeon can do a facelift and get comments like yours??

I beleive the cosmetic surgery at BPH is very good, I have had one treatment and it was very well performed with results much better that I could have imagined, a friend just gave his GF a nice new top set and they look wonderful and she states it was virtually painless and again well carried out. ( they wont let me test drive them thogh )

I think you will find good and bad stories from all of the Thai Hospitals, you cant please all of the people all of the time.

Don't even think of trying to do a business in Thailand where the rules and requirements are one sided before you even try to break even with a good business model and can and do change at a moments notice and perfectly possibly retrospective!

There are success stories of those who have prospered against the odds or with a very very good business model, unique something or fallen on their feet. Rare.

There are thousands and thousand that make less than outgoings or a minimal profit only and regret as they cannot sell for anything reasonable and thousands more who loose money or regret entering into business here, if truth be known.

The risk/reward ratio is terrible and why sink savings in just to start up and employ often lazy disinterested Thai's. The success stories are like a treasure hunt gone wrong, with unequal rules and culteral differences that can infuriate in business.

I love Thailand as a tourist. Would I go into business here. I'd rather put it on the roulette wheel and save a slow torturous stressfull existence. hel_l, I may even get my number come up at roulette.

I look at all the additional problems (political and business) and the extra requirements for foreigners and the regular sad stories of lost life savings or corruption, staff problems, tax returns, visa and work permit problems.....Jesus you have to be mad or 1 in a million to invest in a business profitably here, where rules and laws change at a whim. You would NEVER dream of taking so many risks in your home country with your hard earned money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WAKE UP TO REALITY. Thailand will disperse your money to the Thai's as you fight an unfair, uphill battle to do business.

Yes a regular YEARLY maintenance fee.

My advice is rent, at least for a while first and ONLY buy a Condo you can own in a foreigner name.

Otherwise the seller will state the transfer tax to be paid and is often paid 50% each, which would typically be in the region of 20k to 30k Baht each. Normally require a 10% deposit and all funds must COME FROM YOUR HOME COUNTRY AND STATE THAT THEY ARE FOR THE PURPOSE OF BUYING A cONDO ON THE TRANSFER ITSELF TO THE THAI BANK.

Others can give futher advice

My real advice is wait until things settle down here and don't rush. I anticipate there are more uncertain times ahead and I am selling in View Talay 2 and not buying. Yes it is a nice 41 sq. m condo in foreign name.

It's very easy to buy and harder to sell. Don't buy anything other than a Condo in your own name.

Indeed. I would however state that it is infact much more common than you make out.

It is an International based Estate Agent where my original information came from and stated that it was very common and that at least she was "being honest" with me in telling me. (actually simply further confirming my evidence and experience)

It IS a common practice by many Estate Agents here in Pattaya and why not. Nobody is going to know unless the buyer and seller have direct communication after the sale proceeds are agreed by the Estate Agent, who will and can generally easily make sure there is no need or possibility for the parties to communicate.

I am very pleased to hear it never occurs at your employer(s).

There are ways to help, as you suggest. I guess firstly not to choose the net figure option, but to set a sale price and pay the 3% commission seperately, although still not a guarantee.

My real point has been slightly lost in that Joe Public are completely unaware of limiting their sale price by requesting a net amount. Show me a seller who got more than his/her requested net amount? Not very often if ever.

I am selling my Condo and was asked today what the net amount was, that I wanted for my Condo and had to state three times that I wanted to pay the commission seperately from my sale proceeds as I now know "net amount" really means what "maximum amount" do I want to limit myself to! Why would I want to limit my potential to get a better price for my Condo than the net amount I would guess at. In addition and by definition a net amount is likely to be the sellers minimum amount, so the seller is giving a figure to work to that really does limit his potential return.

I am livid at this scam!!!!!!

I was also told this is not openly discussed but a common enough practice throughout estate agents.

It is clearly common whether you have a contract or not. Let's not forget there is no real regulation and plenty of scope to decide that a higher agreed price does not have to be told or given to the seller.

I was told that of course, the seller will get his/her required net amount, but no more and the sale price details will never be told to the seller, who will happily just accept his requested net sale amount, oblivious to the fact that the buyer paid more and the estate agent kept it!!!

It's not rocket science to see that true details are simply not disclosed and monies are kept, that were given for the purpose of the property purchase and should go to the seller.

Disclosure time, I have worked in the commercial real estate industry here for 10 years (PM for details if you wish) and whilst this practice does happen I would hardly call it common practice.

There are several glaring holes in this approach that a savvy vendor with a sliver of common sense should be able to spot. The biggest of which is that there is no way this can work if you use a Sales & Purchase Agreement.

If you are conveyancing and do not use a sales contract signed off by both parties, then you are asking for all sorts of trouble.

No right minded fellow would ever sell real estate in their home country without both parties signing a contract that describes the agreed sales terms, so why would you think that you do not need to do that here?

Other cost items, such as marketing expenses etc. should be payable seperately and with full transparency.

You have a point, but as far as I am concerned it is illegal in the West and immoral and a malpractice.

As an agent to sell an asset whilst a primary concern of the Agent is clearly going to be to cream off even more profit that belongs to the seller and is paid specifically by the buyer to purchase the said asset. Either the seller does not get full value (his lesson of hard knocks) or the buyer is robbed. This is the plain truth, even if you want to describe it as a learning curve.

This method is used by the Estate Agent to give a freebie to the said Estate Agent.

It just goes to show how unregulated and typically corrupt business is out here is and how widespread, not even to be disgusted at this common practice. Let's say you are the Buyer, who could end up paying 200,000 - 400,000 Baht more than you need to, so the Estate Agent can have a nice profit after handing over the seller's net amount. Well, just let me know when you have this money spare to throw away, please?

As a standard, very common and uniform terms of business, it's criminal to misuse the term of "net" to mean "maximum"!

"...it is not in the spirit of a net minimum amount and it is rather reprehensible to keep proceeds extracted for the sole purpose of additional profit for the Estate Agent. A minimum net amount does not state or address the maximum and is NOT advertised or expected to be a self imposed cap or limit to the sale price."

The OP didn't understand the real estate market, and it is reprehensible that he blames someone else for his ignorance. He received the sales net exactly as he requested. No one forced him to set the sales price at any level. The 80,000THB he didn't receive was the tuition paid to graduate from the school of hard knocks. As far as I'm concerned, if it's a lesson that he won't forget, the tuition that he had was worth it.

If the seller and buyer had a conversation post sale. The Buyer says, "well I paid your 4 million Baht and hope you are spending it wisely" The Seller "I got 3.7 million net, as I requested" The Buyer "so after costs I paid nearly 200,000 Baht more than I needed!!" The Seller "and I sold an asset and got short changed because I stated a minimum figure, which actually got used as a Maximum figure and the Estate Agent kept any additional monies paid for the purchase".

Sure you maybe didn't get smart, but it is not in the spirit of a net minimum amount and it is rather reprehensible to keep proceeds extracted for the sole purpose of additional profit for the Estate Agent. A minimum net amount does not state or address the maximum and is NOT advertised or expected to be a self imposed cap or limit to the sale price.

This is not good practice and is illegal in any regulated market, for very very obvious reasons!

The Estate Agent provides a service for which they should be paid and take a charge (a commission) they are meant to act on behalf of the seller in good faith and get the best price for the seller. Not rip him/her off by inflating the price above reasonable and equivalent commission rates and keeping the difference!!!

What about this practice do you agree with??

"over 10,000 condos under construction in a city of 250,000 "

No, there are not. Are you counting by 10s?

As for "net price"...if you request a net price, and you get it, why would you complain about the actual selling price? You didn't get cheated; you just didn't get smart.

I have only just been told (from an insider) of what I consider to be an improper practice.

If you state a net figure to an estate agent here in Thailand (Pattaya at least) then the Estate Agent will of course try for the best sale price. However, not for the seller but for themselves, as any extra above the net price the seller has requested, and after all costs, goes straight into the Estate Agents pocket!!

The buyer may pay 4m Baht, but the seller only receives his net figure, say 3.7m and NOT the actual sale price less costs!

For example if you say that you want a net of 3.6m Baht then the estate agent will put your Condo up for say 3,850,000 Baht to cover costs and allow the the buyer to knock the price down a little bit. They will then try to get the best price, so maybe they sell for 3,800,000. Ordinarily a 3% commission of 108,000 Baht (on net price of 3.6m) and say 30,000 transfer tax, totalling 138,000 Baht could have been charged, which should leave you actually having sold at 3,662,000 Baht net. However, you will just receive your net figure of 3.6m Baht, exactly as requested.

The extra 62,000 Baht (along with the equivalent and acceptable 3%commission had a normal commission been charged) is another, this time, unscrupulous and additional profit for the Estate Agent!!!!!

Conclusion. Don't sell by means of stating a net price! In rare instances this may even entice the Estate Agent to seek a higher price and may delay the sale, whilst they look to maximise their profit margin.

My Thai GF had read in a Thai paper a day or 2 after the BKK bombings about a bomb found on new year's eve at Fesival Leisure, Pattaya.

This was in a Thai newspaper and not reported in general media or foreign language press anywhere that I could find.

My GF is adamant that this was what it said as I can't read Thai and have no doubt about it's truth. Therefore Pattaya has already been targeted and we have so far been lucky!

Are any Brit's planning to withdraw Baht in Thailand via Nationwide card and receive a current rate of 69.9?

Confess I have withdrawn yesterday and today, but I will be spending it here and so this rate is fine with me if it goes down or up in the future, so decided to take it out now.

Just wondered what the clever money is planning to do or if political and Devaluation concerns or other reasons are stopping people?

You have to remember that the banks are adding their own spreads and fees into the mix. Also, the ATM you use to withdraw is it always from the same bank. While I am not an expert on this, I would assume your are getting the Thai Banks rate as you are using their money.

Would a UK bank be converting Thai Baht at a non-uk applied rate? I wouldn't expect the Nationwide to allow conversion rates to be applied in Thailand or to use the onshore Thai rate themselves?

However, if this is so, then apart from a future devalaution we should fairly reasonably assume that a rate of around 70 Baht to the Pound is pretty good and withdraw on a daily basis? Not saying I would as there are clearly stability and political factors to take into account, as well as any possible devaluation, when foreign money would receive a more favourable rate due to any devaluation.

However, one thing is crystal clear. I can get (at least through a Thai ATM, debiting a UK bank account) a rate of nearly 70 today and this has previously not been made clear or highlighted. Rather it has been assumed not to be the case when reading previous information about what's happening and onshore and offshore rates!!

It is with the Nationwide Bulding Society as mentioned by others here.

It was this morning.

I would be interested from some of the supposedly clever posters, why I get this rate. Does anyone want to try to answer the underlying question(s) as most (all) of the expert advice here would suggest that this should not happen (i.e. getting an onshore rate from an offshore building society)?

Perhaps you are all giving a bum steer on your interpretation as reality is somewhat different from my above experience??

So how am I receiving a rate of 69.9741 TODAY, inside Thailand, when withdrawing funds out from a UK bank via an ATM in Thailand? This is an online UK account with an ATM associated card for withdrawing currency worldwide from my UK, GBP account.

Surely the UK Bank should be giving me the offshore rate of 65/66 and not 69/70 as they are?

Does anyone really know what is going on as it seems not.

Which bank is that with? Has anyone withdrawn using the Nationwide ATM card today and if so can you publish the rate you got.

Thanks.

So how am I receiving a rate of 69.9741 TODAY, inside Thailand, when withdrawing funds out from a UK bank via an ATM in Thailand? This is an online UK account with an ATM associated card for withdrawing currency worldwide from my UK, GBP account.

Surely the UK Bank should be giving me the offshore rate of 65/66 and not 69/70 as they are?

Does anyone really know what is going on as it seems not.