Leaver

One sign is a helipad. Does this development have a helipad in it's design? Some of the casinos in Vietnam have helipads for the high rollers. https://thegrandhotram.com/gaming/

More than a few closed stores. Is the Tyson's you speak of in the middle of "The World's Brothel?" Comparing Pattaya to Orlando is not relevant. Once again, you fail to address the impact on the "investment" in Central, when T21 was approved and built. Or are you also going to say Central was doomed from day one, like The Avenue? Perhaps in a few years you will be saying T21 was doomed from day one, after this new development is built. You also failed to reply to the question, how many malls / hotels do you think Pattaya can support? If it's not currently at saturation, in your opinion, how many before it will be? Why will it? Is there a hotel shortage it Pattaya? Did they sell all of the condo's in The Base? You didn't say, and as a previous owner, I thought you would know. Of course the area where a property is located is relevant. Ever heard the saying, "Location, location, location?" Who is going to pay big baht for a luxury property that's in the middle of a sh*tehole? The Edge, built near to The Base, not to mention the thousands of other condo's on the market at the moment. All those condo's for sale are in competition for the buyers that are on the market. It was you that mentioned The Edge as raising the value of property at The Base, and I am suggesting that may not be the case. Are you suggesting the market forces of supply and demand are not applicable to the Pattaya property market? In your opinion, do you think there is an oversupply of condo's here, or not? Once again, you only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar. I agree, what a great building. What great facilities. However, it was you that said it was a good "investment." The investment is the money that gets the property built. I simply put to you what about the lost investment in Central and T21 that this development will cause? Is that not also "investment" in Pattaya, which is set to significantly decrease in value now this development has been approved?

A high end resort, being built in the middle of the world's biggest red light area, which can only attract cheap package holiday makers from developing nations. Without a casino inside, I can't see this development being profitable.

So no bell ringing then. ????

Why aren't all the unemployed Thai's protesting that these Burmese migrants are taking their jobs? ????

Good idea. You open your bar first. ????

Exactly. Many will be left carrying the can here, after such a long toil through covid. Even post covid, how are business owners going to explain to their Thai landlords that their property can no longer support the rents demanded pre covid? We have seen already, many would rather have their property sit untenanted, than reduce the rent.

Is running a power extension lead closer to the camera an option, then use a regular USB cable?

If they come up dry, their doors my close, for good.

And way less than you could get making the money work for you elsewhere. Makes for an expensive retirement visa / extension.

People came from all around for the show. I have no doubt there will be a spike, it's just the spike will be spread across neighbouring provinces.

Is it the case that once you have a restaurant license, you cease to be able to operate as a bar? Eg. no live music.

A bunch of farang meeting, many with laptops, talking about money. It should be ok, as long as you don't play Bridge. ????

What possible relevance has a mall in the USA got with what is happening in Pattaya? In any case, I'll use your example. Say a mall twice the size as Tyson's opened up only a few hundred meters down the road. What happens to the money that was invested in Tyson's? You only see the structure, the building, the bricks and mortar. I see the money that paid for the structure, the building, and the bricks and mortar, and just like many other businesses and investments, supply and demand effects the value of property, and the investment in that property. Think, Return On Investment. My point on this thread has always been that whilst this development may be a success, and profitable, thus a good investment, it comes at the cost of those who have lost money by investing in Central and T21, for example. I accept your argument that investors accept the risk, but say 6 months after this development is built a new development starts just down the road that is twice the size, and includes a casino. This development, that you say is a good investment. would then take a huge hit, would it not? Now, the question is, what is stopping that development that is twice the size from being approved? (casino aside) Nothing, because the town planning laws here, or lack of them, do not take into account sustainability. This leads to another question, is it better to have two malls with 75% occupancy, or three malls with 50% occupancy, given each mall has the same number of shops, for example? There were international chain stores closing. I'm quite sure there business was already tested, and found to work. What does that translate into? Tourist demographics? High rents? Either way, closed. I believe some of the original builds are still for sale. Is that true? If so, how do they hope to sell them, with thousands more on the market, unless at a fire sale. Did you sell yours? If not, how do you know you haven't lost? If you did sell, I doubt you would get that price now, and that has nothing to do with covid. Once again, supply and demand, and Pattaya keeps going with its oversupply of EVERYTHING, thus spreading the demand too thin for anything to be a decent investment here. Do you have some comparative sales figures? If not, these numbers are worthless, just like their advertisements. Don't you see all the extra condo's being built all around your own condo as competing for buyers? I think you are mixing up government investment in infrastructure with private investment in property. Step outside The Base or The Edge, and you are pretty much still in an urban slum with failing infrastructure. Watch your step on the sidewalk. ???? So what happens to the other zoo? No. I seem to think allowing many of the same tourist features to be built sees most of them struggle, ultimately going broke, and the building sits derelict. Hardly creating the appearance of a thriving Pattaya economy. So, sometimes it doesn't work out. Is that right? Would Disney World fold if, for example, Dina World, which would basically be a copy of Disney World, opened a few hundred meters away? The USA has a big middle class. The majority of tourists to Pattaya are cheap Chinese and Russian package holiday makers, and some Indians. Do you really think their sprinkling of yuan, roubles and rupees, are going to support all these malls here?

I agree, it was busy, but hardly the "high end" tourism that Pattaya is seeking to attract. Sitting on the beach is free. Alcohol from 7/11 and cheap eats from food cart vendors is not exactly a great boost to the local economy, but yes, better than nothing in these harsh economic times. Question: Would the majority of the crowd that attended still do what they did, outside covid times? I suggest they would, so not a whole lot of money in them. As mentioned, Central is great for an air conditioned short cut between 2nd Road and Beach Road. Pedestrian traffic doesn't mean much without the cash registers ticking over.

The problem with owning the building, after paying big money for it, is the use of that building is still under the control of authorities by way of alcohol / entertainment licenses, and it can be raided by the BiB for prostitution at any time. They know you own it, and it's a worthless purchase unless you also pay big money extortion fees to them. Also, with a declining business model in lady drinks and bar fines, it would be difficult to recoup the purchased price over any reasonable amount of years.

Can you name a few "good ideas" that have been successful here?

You don't think a development like this has the potential to put many surrounding businesses out of business, or do you think there will be enough tourists to support all the businesses here, once this is built?

Cheap eats.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. There were threads, with some even posting photos of closed shops inside the mall, back then. My thoughts back then were if it was not for the telco's and banks, and the shortcut to Beach Road, there was very little pedestrian traffic in Central, pre covid. No, but one should not suggest investing in Pattaya is a good idea, because tomorrow 10 new hotels can be built, for example, and one may be in the hotel game. Another example is The Base. Investors bought a condo there, only to see it become a short stay hotel for Chinese. Good luck selling for the price you bought in at. That's how quick an investment can be lost here. There's no need to get personal. I am a positive person, I just don't see the positives in investing in Pattaya / Thailand. I find your example somewhat strange. With the announcement of this new development, how "positive" do you think the investors of T21 are right now? Doesn't this development lower the value of T21? So, are you a firm believer in, "build it and the people will come?" What if everyone builds? Well, I certainly don't fret. I have nothing here I can't leave behind and go to the airport within hours. That is by design. It's an interesting subject, but I have no skin in the game. I see your point. You re suggesting that this development is basically a tourist attraction, and will attract people into Pattaya. The thing is, with bars, restaurants, accommodation, retail, nightclub, salons, massage, etc etc all in house, does it not take customers away from Central and T21, and small businesses like massage, for example? Will tourists even leave this development to step outside into 3rd World infrastructure? Where we seem to have a communication break down is, you are saying this development is good for Pattaya, and I agree, it is, for all the reasons you say. Where I disagree is you say this "investment" is good for Pattaya, and I ask, good for who? Certainly not the investors in Central, T21 etc for example. Yes, it's new investment in Pattaya, but it means past investors lose out. Did they make more investment decisions? Or, are they the victim of overdevelopment and lack of town planning? Do I care, no, but I simply suggest that there are not enough tourists coming here, and their demographic, to support ALL recent investments here, and they are still building more.

Easy to pass. Implement Vietnam's policy of foreigners only, and Vietnamese who can prove they earn over something like $450USD a month, but basically, it's foreigners only allowed in the casino. The BiB still get their cut from either operating or allowing underground casinos, and Thailand rakes in billions of dollars, not baht, dollars, from foreign gamblers, the majority I suspect will be Chinese. Yes, it's rocket science. ????

A move to online was happening before covid. I have no doubt that covid will have increased the use of apps, after borders are open. The girl still "gets it all." If she wants a 1000 baht, she gets the 1000 baht, it's just there's no added expense of 300, 400, 500 baht, or more, for the bar fine. I don't see the bar owners as parasitic. A Thai landlord drops high rent on them, and they pass it on to the customer. if bars here had no bar fines, a beer would be 120 baht, for example. As mongers increase their use of the apps, I can only see alcohol prices rising in the girl bars, and that's the start of the downward spiral for bars with that business model. The hotel industry saw it with AirBnB and the taxi industry with Uber. On a micro level in Pattaya, the sex trade may see the same digital disruption as well. Some bars may move to freelancers only and no bar fines, but 250 or 300 baht a lady drink, just to compete with the apps. Some bars may may even advertise their own staff on the apps, and have the girl charge a higher price and they take a commission. Whatever happens, good luck to bar owners explaining to Thai landlords that their building isn't worth the rent it once was because no one is buying lady drinks and paying bar fines anymore.

Say a lot of the Thai's came down from Bangkok to hang out on the beach, and stay for the show, then return to Bangkok after the show. Who made money out of them? It's a day trip for many Thai's.

Or a casino.

Exactly my point. That's how quick a good investment can become worthless here.