Tammi

Absolutely correct. Where there is no service performed no money should be exchanged.

I can't believe that anyone would fall for that. No way known would i have given her a cent.

I have taken girls on ocassion who when they came back to the room didn't want to do anything for whatever reason and so they didn't get any money.

I just called hotel security to come and kick them out.

Do yourself a favour OP and go down to soi 6 or Welkomm Inn and that 3 thousand baht you got will get you a very nice time indeed with a number of ladies.

I have a feeling they weighed you up and their intuition told them to get out. Kick them out, indeed!

Hear! hear! This is imho the best way to deal with prostitution at the end of the day. It is the most likely to have a beneficial impact on this industry. It' will be more likely to keep the children out of the trade, as the Women (&Men) working the industry will be more commited to keeping the industry safe.

Now,bear in mind, I'm not saying every shady aspect will be eliminated. There will always be murkier places, more underground, more catering to the unacceptable desires, but it willbe bounds and leaps in the right direction.

Holland, for example, you average legitimate prostitute is actually quite content with the police, the hotel owners, etcc. for they know that not only are they protected by laws and labour union edicts, , but they are veryoften regarded as just another person working to please the tourist. When I was a hotelier in the netherlands, the prostitute coming to visit the business man in his room was regarded increasingly equal to the waiter that serves him in the restaurant, the taxi driver we always try to ensure is going to be good to our guest, the tour guide we try to ensure is reputable for our guest, etc, etc..

And vice versa, there was, for example, an incident when the guest was out of order with the girl in his room. The girl, as per procedure, had written down her Union card number on a registration form earlier, and when things went awry, the girl managed to call down to hotel reception, and we were there in a minute to get her out of the room while a colleague of mine phoned her boss to get her picked up. The bill for the girl? although usually handled in cash by the guest and the girl, in this case, her hour was paid under misc'l charges inserted on the guests bill, which we were happy to explain if he asked. Which he didn't.

Now, if the girl had been unregistered, illegitamate, orwhatever, she wouldn't havebeen able tocall for assistance, and even if we thought something was up, we couldn't intrude, we wouldn't know who was right, who was wrong, we couldn't have sorted out her payment, we'd probably have sided with the guest and chucked her out on the street, thereby risking backlash in the future, from her, from the russian, fromthe hel_l's angels, whoever....

Legalise/decriminalise it gets my vote.

And my vote, too. But move it out to the boonies.

The other evening I went to downtown Pattaya to do some shopping at Royal Garden and to have a meal at the New Orleans and chose to sit outside because it is so cold inside. I had a view of half naked girls solicitating for customers to drink beer at B49. Then their friend arrived with a small child so they all disappeared inside while cuddling and oohing and aahing over the child. Is this really a healthy environment for a child - theirs or a tourist's?

Then on the way to 2nd Road we had to pass large poster photographs of men clutching their private parts.

It's high time prime real estate in downtown Pattaya was given over to other busnesses.

I do hope that these girls understand the danger to health in this kind of work and that Management picks up the bill for regualr testing.

Probably was a miscommunication. Communicating is soooo difficult even between husband and wife. Maybe even more so!

Tammi, that question was a bit naive....the girls are very aware of the dangers of the work they do. They are not all naive and illiterate girls from the country and even those that are naive and illiterate are looked after by the more experienced girls.

Mostly the girls arrange their own tests, there are bars that wont employ girls unless they have regular checks and a few bars do foot the bill for the girls.

Yes and to comply with these rules they just go to the clinic,handover 100 baht and get a checked stamp in their book without any testing.All done in 2 minutes.

Health checks should be responsibility of the bar owner and his wife - I think usually the mamasan and a Thai - to make sure health checks are properly done. Bar owners' books should be stamped. But that is naive! They will just pay a few thousand baht for the stamps.

How do other countries where prostitution is legal, handle all this?

I am not interested in the gay sex scene at all, but I have to admit that I have real misgivings about procecuting anyone for having consenting sex with teenage boys. These guys in the nightclub ranged from 15 to 18 years old.

Most boys at that age will shag anything that moves for free. Once they make the decision to sell their bodies to gay men, I doubt if they ever feel any real qualms about it. It really is no ones business, but the people involved.

More and more, Big Brother really is watching you.

Teenagers are immature in their thinking and therefore have to be protected. They might not feel any qualms at this time but later on when they have matured they may very much regret what they got up to in their teenage years. Mentally they might be badly screwed. That's why there's laws against it. Big Brother has to watch over the vulnerable - and that includes teenage boys.

Most people that I know are "immature" from cradle to grave.

Are you saying that the whole world should be a Police State?

Happily, you and I know different people.

I do hope that these girls understand the danger to health in this kind of work and that Management picks up the bill for regualr testing.

Probably was a miscommunication. Communicating is soooo difficult even between husband and wife. Maybe even more so!

Tammi, that question was a bit naive....the girls are very aware of the dangers of the work they do. They are not all naive and illiterate girls from the country and even those that are naive and illiterate are looked after by the more experienced girls.

Mostly the girls arrange their own tests, there are bars that wont employ girls unless they have regular checks and a few bars do foot the bill for the girls.

Just checking, just checking.

Have read OP again. Why would the girl go to the hotel with OPoster? Maybe to play Scrabble or chat about the weather?

All the bars should foot the bill for medical expenses. It really is time these women are protected. I know one bar owner on Walking Street - says the bar is a goldmine. I must find out how he treats his bar girls. I won't be happy if I find out that he doesn't look after the medicals and that they are disposable when they get sick.

I am not interested in the gay sex scene at all, but I have to admit that I have real misgivings about procecuting anyone for having consenting sex with teenage boys. These guys in the nightclub ranged from 15 to 18 years old.

Most boys at that age will shag anything that moves for free. Once they make the decision to sell their bodies to gay men, I doubt if they ever feel any real qualms about it. It really is no ones business, but the people involved.

More and more, Big Brother really is watching you.

Teenagers are immature in their thinking and therefore have to be protected. They might not feel any qualms at this time but later on when they have matured they may very much regret what they got up to in their teenage years. Mentally they might be badly screwed. That's why there's laws against it. Big Brother has to watch over the vulnerable - and that includes teenage boys.

Excuse me for disagreeing but this is just the usual crap of better give to a fat Christian priest then directly to the needing on the street! I can’t stand the hypocrisy of Christianity! This country lived without it until now and will continue to do so for ever so just stay of!

Easy for me as a fat Falang to say? Yes! But I have done my far share of contribution in silence and if there is karma I’m saved!!

Viking

Are you seriously suggesting that all these people in need came from a better existence before arriving in Pattaya??

To the exrtent that any group of penniless people gravitating to a big city and ending up in its slums, with the kids at the mercy of all the degradation and evil that happens in such places - then yes, this is undoubtedly true.

Go and see for yourself.

Excuse me for disagreeing but this is just the usual crap of better give to a fat Christian priest then directly to the needing on the street! I can’t stand the hypocrisy of Christianity! This country lived without it until now and will continue to do so for ever so just stay of!

This is one if the most ignorant and objectionable comments I have read for a very long time - and beleive me there have been a few. I have already stated in a recent thread that I am not an christian and have little time for organised religion - but these people are virtually'saints' and have dedicated what remains of their lives to helping the kids. The 'Buddhist' Thais, for the most,part, do absolutely nothing to help, except try top sweep it under the carpert and pretend such problems do not exist. Bad for business, you see.

So I have answered your post, even though you were extremely rude, made insulting allegations and were inflammatory to the extreme. I hope you are happy.

Re Karma & Thai Culture

The following is from an article about corruption in the Bangkok Post a few days ago. It was written by Mettanando Bhikku who is a Thai Buddhist monk and former physician. He studied at Chulalongkorn, Oxford and Harvard. He is special advisor on Buddhist affairs to the secretary-general of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.

" In Thai culture where "individual survival" is praised as the "highest knowledge" (to quote the great Thai poet Sunthorn Phu), most people are more concerned with their own safety and well-being than with the collective good of the nation. And parallel to this line of thought is the traditional interpretation of the Law of Karma as strongly held by the majority of Buddhists in Thailand. Superficially, it seems that belief in karma leads people to live moral lives. However, the flip-side of the Law of Karma often draws believers to conclude that they have nothing to do with the system of social justice. "The good are always rewarded. whereas the bad are punished" This dogma permits devout Buddhists to be self-focused, passive and develop a high degree of tolerance to social injustice. Thus, the deductive interpretation of the Law of Karma tends to endorse the status quo, i.e. the world is always just and fair, everyone deserves their own status as it is a part of karmic retribution, and every wealthy person has done great charity in his/her past life and is thus deserving of merit in this one.

"On the other hand, the poor and the marginalised are those who have contributed less in their past lives and therefore deserve to suffer for their sin and selfishness. Such interpretation of the Law of Karma has fertilised the soil of Thai culture, with the result we have grown to embrace material success as the goal of life and to promote conservative ethos in society."

Well in the spirit of fair reporting there has been a responce from Management

Taken from Pattaya Secrets

""I talked to Koi last night and this is her and Noi's details of what happened. They said the man had agreed to take them out "Bai Teeow" (out for play) and not for sex. Noi went home but then Koi decided to stay with him and go back with him to the hotel as he hadnt paid her yet. When he took a shower she waited and when he came out he wanted sex. She reminded him that this was not the deal and to please pay her. He got upset and refused. She felt very scared and in her version she told him that if he wanted a problem she would call the police. Rape was never mentioned. (This is where the miscommunication took place). He paid her 1,000baht (not 3,000) and she left. IF anyone knows this Richardb and can vouche for him then I might take his story into consideration, otherwise it seems like he embellished it a little to make it seem more dramatic for him. Koi has been a good employee and we have never had this problem before. She has gone with many a customer. She said that she is not angry at him, she just wanted to go home but she felt that he wouldnt let her. Maybe she really did feel threatened? I dont know, I wasnt there. But because I dont know this guy at all, I am going to have to side this time with the girl. Also, if you take a girl out with you, it is customary to pay her, even if you agreed not to have sex. I dont make the rules, I just explain them."

A cultural misunderstanding it seems. I am enrolling on a cultural and gender sensitivity course.

Bangkok is nice toodle pip

I do hope that these girls understand the danger to health in this kind of work and that Management picks up the bill for regualr testing.

Probably was a miscommunication. Communicating is soooo difficult even between husband and wife. Maybe even more so!

Looks like I missed a good party and meeting a lot of interesting people. But I wish you all a Very Merry Xmas and a Healthy and Prosperous 2007!

Yes! But I have done my far share of contribution in silence

Viking

Thank you, Viking! May I wish you the gifts of Joy, Peace, and Happiness, this Chrismastime and always.

Prostitution exists in rich countries and poor countries. It is also a major part of the economy of such world cities as Paris, Amsterdam, Rio, Mexico City, Las Vegas, San Francisco, etc. etc. Thailand could shut down the obvious venues such as go go bars, beer bars, and even harass street prostitutes, but short of a total police state with death penalties, they couldn't eliminate widespread prostitution. There is too much an incentive for the sellers.

By allowing such obvious venues, Thailand has largely divorced the connection between prostitution and violence that is much more common in other countries such as the US. In effect, allowing such open venues is de facto legalization.

Please, where can I find the statistical report?

Why buy it? Just make your own, also great for toad in the hole

Yorkshire Pudding

Serves 4-6

300ml (½ pint) Milk

110g (4 oz) Plain Flour

1 Egg

Oil, Lard or Dripping

Place the flour in a bowl, then make a well in the centre and break in the egg.

Mix in half the milk using a wooden spoon, work the mixture until smooth then add the

remaining milk.

Beat or whisk until fully combined and the surface is covered with tiny bubbles.

Allow to rest for 15 to 30 minutes, whisk again before use.

Pre-heat oven to 220°C; 425°F: Gas 7.

Place a teaspoon of fat into 12 individual deep bun tins or a single large tin and place in the oven until the fat is very hot.

Pour the batter into the tins and bake for 10 to 15 minutes for individual puddings (or 30 to 35 minutes if using a large tin) or until risen and golden brown.

Did everything you said. Came out of the oven a beautiful colour but stodgy. Is it meant to be stodgy? Maybe I didn't beat enough?? But tasted alright for afternoon snack with a marmalade topping!

Dr. Sudlah, Emergency Room at Bumrungrad, did a very good job for me in July.

His fee was B3,000. Emergency Room Service was B200. Injections, blade, sutures, gloves, etc. etc. was B805.

Alternatively, you could consult Dr. Somchai at PIH. But he is only there on Monday mornings.

I think we won't see podiatrists in Thailand until all the teenagers who started wearing high heels about 30 years ago begin to complain of bunions and other foot problems.

Good luck!

Finally, a recommendation. Thank you Tammi, I've already noted them down and will contact one or the other. I live in Pattaya, so the PIH surgeon would be more convenient.

Woops!! The doctor to see at PIH is Dr. Chanchai NOT Somchai.

"butchered by a "pedicurist" Here, lies the problem.

Whilst it seems to be confirmed that there are no podiatrists in Thailand there are plenty of females calling themselves "pedicurists" and they don't know shyt about cutting toe nails.

They do inestimable damage to ones feet.

Never allow the foot massage people to use that little brown stick. If it slips it can do bad damage - I couldn't walk properly for 3 months!

"butchered by a "pedicurist" Here, lies the problem.

Whilst it seems to be confirmed that there are no podiatrists in Thailand there are plenty of females calling themselves "pedicurists" and they don't know shyt about cutting toe nails.

They do inestimable damage to ones feet.

Never allow the foot massage people to use that little brown stick. If it slips it can do bad damage - I couldn't walk properly for 3 months!

Answer # 2. Dear Tammi, yes, I will have given donation(s) many times. (few other charities as well)

I was never asked I did it because it was a good thing to do.

BTW Camillian Center is another worthy charity!!!

Absolutely! But I wish Camillian would acknowledge receipt of donations. If it wasn't so far away from me I would volunteer to do it's bookkeeping.

Dr. Sudlah, Emergency Room at Bumrungrad, did a very good job for me in July.

His fee was B3,000. Emergency Room Service was B200. Injections, blade, sutures, gloves, etc. etc. was B805.

Alternatively, you could consult Dr. Somchai at PIH. But he is only there on Monday mornings.

I think we won't see podiatrists in Thailand until all the teenagers who started wearing high heels about 30 years ago begin to complain of bunions and other foot problems.

Good luck!

SOURCE: PATTAYA CITY NEWS

Early on Thursday Morning, Police Lieutenant Colonel Pongsawat from Pattaya Police Station was called to Soi Chaleurmpragiet 23 in Central Pattaya to investigate the death of a Finnish Resident who was discovered on a sofa in front of an apartment complex. Police and rescue workers arrived and inspected the body of Mr. Niko Raine Valtteri Marin aged 27 who was carrying his Finnish Passport which indicated he originated from Turkey. An inspection of the body was made and few clues were forthcoming as to the cause of his death. Near the body was a Mosquito Repellant Stick and he was seen to have a number of Mosquito Bites. For now the cause of death is a mystery and Police and Finnish Embassy Officials are awaiting the results of a post mortem examination.

May he Rest In Peace.

The insect bites are concerning because I know one case where an insect bite put a gentleman in BHP for some days and he is still having treatments. Skin sloughed off his foot and leg. This gentleman told me that there have been other cases and that one lady, a diabetic, had to have amputation after insect bite. Yesterday I met a friend who had been bitten on the face while asleep. She woke with tremendous itchiness all over her face and neck. She doesn't think it was a mosquito.

Does anybody else know anything?

Mobi - dont get me wrong - what I am saying you should give because you want to give, not because someone asks you to give. Same Same but different.

Mercy Mission is a great charity, but I think its better suited in its own thread if the truth be known.

Dear Brit, please will you give a donation to Mercy Mission?

Answer # 1. Dear Tammi, no, I won't give a donation.

Answer # 2. Dear Tammi, yes, I will give a donation.

No sweat if you don't make a donation. Mercy Mission will continue doing what it can to alleviate suffering of the children and poor and needy here in Pattaya.

Charities have to ask. As you probably well know, there are dozens of envelopes from charities that come through one's letter box every year in UK, U.S., and Canada, and probably elsewhere as well. Here in Thailand that doesn't happen. I see nothing wrong with using a much viewed topic to ask for donations. On Pattaya forum we have to put up with all these prostitution and perversion and other topics about the underbelly of Pattaya. Why not balance the topic with something good that is happening here?

Some good advise for the poster.

The " one liners " probably feel the question asked could be better answered on other forums set up for the benefit of sex tourism, I was under the impression that this was not one of those ?

In addition ( as we wait with baited breath for the next Maigo rant ), the question had the potential and sadly the expected outcome to attract the " Bashers" who swoop on anything sex related and belittle the place we all love for whatever reason.

Good on you for loving the place and accepting the faults. Maigoo and his crowd are often quite right in what they say, but is it helpful in anyway to people who ask questions of any nature on the Pattaya Forum to have them turn any given topic to the same old tired rant?

There is more than enough sex in BK, Fhuckit, Samui and just about every place in the world. Yes Pattaya may have more than it's fair share, but as has been posted on here time and time again there are many other things on offer.

A number of Pattaya defenders have given up, snowed under by the constant waves of attack, would you really like this forum to be just questions about which is the best Hotels for short time romps and those questions answered by Maigoo and Co's rants ? I think not.

You are the worst offender. Every time we read a post from you we get this: "Women should be obscene and not heard. Groucho Marx". Please change it to something that does not belittle women.

Looks like business as usual!

How about all you lovely guys forego the pleasures of the flesh for just one night and instead send the money to MERCY MISSION to help it in all its good work with the Street Children, in the slums, and so many other needful places?

You must remember Tammi that everyone who "has the money" and is doing the "spending" has the sole right as to how he/she disburses the dosh.

If you mission is to make people feel guilty then you're way off track and are doomed to failure

I agree with you 110%. I am not trying to make anybody feel guilt. What's to feel guilty about? Just thought some of you might like to know about Mercy Mission and all the good work they do and feel inclined to give up something and send the money to help places like Mercy Mission attend to the poor, destitute, and abandonded, at this the season of giving.

ISo what do you think would hapen to Thailand if it stoped tomorrow would tourism go down or up ?

As someone who travels far and wide I would say tourism would decline, why? Because all the so called "sex tourists" will simply go elsewhere like Cambodia and the Phillipines. I know guys who come here 4 times a year 2 weeks at a time who are well off, they pay 1,000 to 1,500 baht a night for a room and spend big in bars and night clubs and on the girls, money is no problem for them. These guys would go elsewhere to find this action if it wasn't here, that would have to have an impact on the economy.

The so called "normal tourists" will keep on coming the same as they do now, that will only increase with or without prostitution. When a "normal tourist" decides to come to Thailand prostitution is usually the last thing on their mind. There is so much to do in this country that it is of no consequence whether it's here or not. In my case it doesn't matter, I will be coming here for a long time yet with or without it, cheers.

I think not - at least while Mrs. Hun Sen is around.

Why can't our supposidly free press go and demand the answer on behalf of their public ?

We should all write an email to the Pattaya Mail and Pattaya Today. I will do that today.

Very sad. May she rest in peace. And may boy friend have learned something from this.

I think this sort of thing happens all over the world, not just in Pattaya. And can happen that gf goes off and the torment is with the bf.

Unfortunately, the abandoned person does not have the sense or strength of character to accept the situation and go get another life.